Timing problem

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glhx

glhx

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got his car running.
Changed it over to a Holley 600 on the 318
1976 engine
1968 distributor

Adjusted the carb by vacuum. I got 11 vacuum out of it.
Checked for leaks and couldn't find any.

Thought to redo the timing.
The car ran and idled fine before I messed with the timing.
It had a dead spot when you hit the gas hard

So I figured I'd adjust the timing by vacuum.
Loosened the distributor.

The car would start and run when I hit the gas. It would not idle at all. No matter where I moved the distributor.

The guy who timed the car before said it was hard to tune. I have double 2 barrels on it.


It does have older gas. Mixed with some fresh gas.
It ran ok with this older gas so I figured I'd just run it out and out in new.


I cannot get this car to stay running.

I also can't really see the timing marks as they are buried by the water pump




Any thoughts would help
 
Find true TDC...

Then use a timing light to set timing, not a vacuum meter, you don't know where it is...

Then go from there....
 
This thing ran before I messed with it. It idled fine.

The 68 distributor is still points. I can't even see the timing mark. Can't keep it running long enough to point the timing light at it.

I'll do what I can.

No matter where I put the distributor this thing won't stay running. It kind of runs fast as well
 
glhx said:
This thing ran before I messed with it. It idled fine.

The 68 distributor is still points. I can't even see the timing mark. Can't keep it running long enough to point the timing light at it.

I'll do what I can.

No matter where I put the distributor this thing won't stay running. It kind of runs fast as well
Click to expand...

Have you verified TDC with a piston stop???

Find TDC to make sure that your marks are not off...
 
I don't understand... does it have a Holley 600 on it or 2 2bbls? Or did you try 2 different 2 BBL's before?

I'd sure get that old gas out of there, and flush the whole system. Old gas mixed with new will still be 100% crap. And the crud and rust in an old car like this will plug up a carb pronto. I hope you have a good filter on it.

A 1968 distributor would have points. Is this what you have? The gap on the points should open to .017" + or - a bit when the points are at their maximum opening. Or if you have a dwell meter, set dwell for 30 degrees. A closed up points gap will cause symptoms like you describe.

As said, use a timing light and figure out access to the time marks. You are shooting in the dark at this point.
 
Ok I found the timing marks. They were covered in dirt.
The engine is at true top dead center.

Can I set it to 8° advanced manually or should I start from 0° And use the timing light.

There is a Holley 600 on it now.
I set the idle by vacuum gauge and was only able to get 11"

There is a new gas tank and fuel system on it.
Plus I have two filters.
One before the fuel pump and one after it
 
I also have a dwell meter that I bought a long time ago. I don't know how to use it.


Will the car run at 0°??
 
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I've always had better luck setting points with a dwell meter instead of just gapping them. Hook it to coil, set it to 8cyl, start car and see where it's at.. Get the dwell as close as you can, then turn the initial timing up in small icrements. Unless you have a vacuum leak, this should bring your idle vacuum up. Then re adjust carb and see what happens
 
Should this engine run at 0°.

It's been a really long time since I've messed with these and I don't want to mess up the true tdc if it won't.

I'm guessing yes and remember sort of. 0° being a good place to start.
 
You stalking 0° of intial timing or dwell? My answer would be no way on the dwell, and not very well at zero on the timing. Been awhile since I've messed with points but I think the dwell was up around 30° ish
 
Good on the fuel system. I'd still get that bad gas outta there. Really bad gas can gum up intake guides badly enough for a valve to stick to bend a pushrod or even break a rocker arm.

Yes 0* is a good place to start. But 8* would be fine too.

Does this engine have a stock camshaft or another? 11" of idle vacuum may be OK for a moderate cam but is waaay low for a stock or near stock cam.

If this is a stock cam, then it looks like you have a vacuum leak. Under the carb, or a bad PCV hose are good places for such a leak. Or the intake manifold. Did you change that?

If you can't figure out how to use the dwell meter, use a feeler gauge to check the points gap at max opening. It'll work fine; just make sure it is checked exactly at max opening.
 
You don't want to run it at 0 degrees. If you think the marks are correct...........and if there's any question you SHOULD use a piston stop........we can step you through that, it's EASY

You CAN set timing "static", easy. Dwell should be 28--32 degrees dwell with single points. To get it running I would not mess with that........set the points by gap. I'd have to look that up anymore. You do need the points gap correct BEFORE you lock in timing long term

To static set timing, bring marks to "where you want" the timing and I'd start about 12 BTDC. Set the marks there. Set up a lamp on the points, or a coil wire to see spark. With the key in "run" move the dist. CW (retard) to be sure the points are CLOSED. Slowly move the dist body CCW (advanced) until points JUST OPEN as indicated by your test lamp or a little spark out of the coil wire.

THAT WILL BE close enough you don't have to worry about timing, until you get it running better. Now switch to carbs and concentrate on that.

A PHOTO of the carb setup might be helpful!!
 
11* is really low for a 318. Even if it was running really retarded I can't see it being that low. But bring her up to 10* advance, and read the manifold vacuum again,if you can. Actually, I would just start her up and tug on the Vcan until it stays running.
IMO,It won't idle cuz the engine is pulling in air somewhere that has no fuel in it; ie a vacuum leak, and at that low a vacuum, the PV may be dumping fuel. You will need to clamp all known vacuum taps; like the PCV, the booster, anything running off vacuum. If that doesn't improve things, then we move on to the carb secondaries, the carb base, the intake manifold topside and then the bottomside.
If you can't keep it running no matter what and the vacuum remains low, then I would go straight to checking the cam-timing.
I've seen a few jumped chains manifest just like yours.
 
So far I can't keep it running. If it jumped teeth it just did it as soon as I shut the car down.

35456766463_fe113d03e2_z.jpg
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This is the gas that was in it. In the filter it was a brown color.
I siphoned it out but today I'm dropping the tank and cleaning it. I found some gel in the bottom of that container.
The car did run on this gas several times. Before I messed with the timing it would fire right up and idle fine. I cleaned the plugs off already.

The cam is stock 1976 cam.

What was changed.
The throttle cable bracket.......had to undo those two bolts back at the intake. Didn't replace the gasket

A carb adapter had to be used to space the carburetor higher for an air cleaner. The streetmaster intake is low profile.
The car ran after all these changes were made. It ran with 11" vacuum.

Once I messed with the distributor. Car wouldn't run at all.
I've always had problems tuning these cars. Vacuum can drop from several places. Carb adjustment.....timing.....actual leak. Never can determine which is which.
I'll be honest. When it comes to diagnosing carbureted cars. I'm terrible at it. Partially because It's old stuff that's worn out and I don't know the difference.

When you have this problem and the car doesn't run you can't find the leak.

When I saw the 11" vacuum. I thought the timing was off with the new carburetor......used carburetor actually. So I went there to find it thinking a regime wouldn't be a problem at all.

What I'll do......
I'll get good gas in it........unhook and lug off vacuum lines to anything unnecessary like thenpower booster to sort out any leaks.
set the timing to 0° again and see what happens.
 
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glhx said:
Ok I found the timing marks. They were covered in dirt.
The engine is at true top dead center.

Can I set it to 8° advanced manually or should I start from 0° And use the timing light.

There is a Holley 600 on it now.
I set the idle by vacuum gauge and was only able to get 11"

There is a new gas tank and fuel system on it.
Plus I have two filters.
One before the fuel pump and one after it
Click to expand...


Ok, I would set it to 8° - 10° advance to get it started, then warm it up to and get it to 2500 RPM and set timing to 34° - 36° advance... Then back it off to idle and see where you are....


Remove the filter before the pump...

The pump is gravity fed and the filter is another restriction for it to overcome to get fuel... Besides there is a filter sock on the pick-up tube in the gas tank that will also keep stuff out as long as it doesn't get old and disintegrate.... Your filter should be after the pump where the pressure can push right through the restriction better...
 
glhx said:
Should this engine run at 0°.

It's been a really long time since I've messed with these and I don't want to mess up the true tdc if it won't.

I'm guessing yes and remember sort of. 0° being a good place to start.
Click to expand...

It should be advanced, the flame front needs time to spread before the piston reaches TDC for best power...
 
I can use the timing marks to do that. Set them to 8° manually on the marks and point the rotor button to the mark I put on the outside of the distributor.
 
That is BAAAAD gas! Holy crap.

The gel is likely the ethanol in the old fuel; it separates out, absorbs water, and turns into a gel. It is quite possible that it sucked up some gel into the carb and has gummed up the carb's insides. And if the carb set with this garbage fuel in it, it is likely to be gummed. I'd pull it apart and clean it all out considering the awful looking pix you posted of the gas and the report of gel.

I also wonder if intake valves have been crapped up and are sticking now.... we'll leave that alone for now.

When you go to set the timing to 8* or 0* manually, do this: 1). Set the points gap to .017" with the distributor out. it will be easy to set out of the car.
2) Put the crank timing mark on 0* or 8*, it should idle smoothly at eitherbut 8* would be better.
3) Insert dirstributor and turn the distributor slowly CCW and watch the points very closely; when you see them start to open, STOP right there and lock it down. You will be close on timing.
4) Line up your rotor and cap and plug wires BUT understand that at this point, the engine can be ready to fire on either #1 OR #6 cylinder. So one of those 2 should be lined up on the rotor.
5) If you want to know if it is #1 or #6 ready to fire, remove the valve cover and look at the valves on #1 or #6; both intake and exhaust valves will be slightly open on one of these 2 cylinders; whichever it is, the other cylinder is the one ready to fire.
6) If you don't do 5) above, then try running then engine with #1 wire at the rotor set at the rotor in step 4. If it backfires, then try moving them all 180 degrees on the cap and fire it up again.

BTW, to check your spark being good enough do this:
Pull the coil's spark wire off of the cap and put the open end of it 1/4" from metal, then crank and look at the sparks. They ought to jump that gap with a hot looking blue spark if the ignition system is good. If not, stop, let us know, and then we can work on the ignition some more. YOu can try this test before you set the timing as above.
 
glhx said:
I can use the timing marks to do that. Set them to 8° manually on the marks and point the rotor button to the mark I put on the outside of the distributor.
Click to expand...
That is NOT setting the timing. You want to go by when the points open, as I outlined above.
 
Can I go by the points setting to get the car started for a rough time.
I will be doing this today.
 
glhx said:
Can I go by the points setting to get the car started for a rough time.
I will be doing this today.
Click to expand...

Two of us have told you how. Please re-read the thread. Setting timing by points opening IS HOW VW BUGS were "used to be" set back in that day. It is better than "rough timing" if done carefully.
 
That is the whole point of the steps I wrote out for you above. Follow them carefully and you'll be close on timing. Print it out and take them to the garage if you can.

The critical thing is to watch very closely for the exact place where the points juuuust start to open as you rotate the distributor CCW. Lock down the distributor at that exact point and you will be very close. I have set all sorts of engines in this way for 30+ years for initial start-up timing, and the timing is always really close.
 
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