340sFastback
Well-Known Member
Yeah they told me I have to install the trans first, provide measurements, then they would make me up a driveshaft. Maybe they had too many ppl complaining drive shafts don't fit?
ToddRon T56 Cross Member No Longer Made?
- Thread starter 340sFastback
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340sFastback
Well-Known Member
Last week I call Modern Driveline to get status of the T56 cross member they said would be powder coated. They said they hadn't gotten around to get them power coated yet and missing the 4 crush sleeves too. Then they propose take $60 off I get it in plain steel and I make crush sleeves myself. So I jumped on that because of risk of this part becoming unavailable. So received it yesterday.
dodgedifferent2
Well-Known Member
Let me know how your install goes. Still waiting on engine parts to complete my package
ESP47
Well-Known Member
Someone here could probably make a lot of money by reproducing that crossmember. Can't imagine it being that difficult at all for someone with the right tools and very basic fabrication skills.
I always thought it was overpriced by about double what it should actually cost.
I always thought it was overpriced by about double what it should actually cost.
The components to build appear to be a CNC plasma table and brake. Then the parts are put in a jig and welded. You have some leftover material from the plate steel.
Most the time is making the first prototype. A lot of the conversation mounts have the lower half only and cost half as much. Sooo. While the cost is not cheap not sure there would be much profit at half the cost being made the same way.
Most the time is making the first prototype. A lot of the conversation mounts have the lower half only and cost half as much. Sooo. While the cost is not cheap not sure there would be much profit at half the cost being made the same way.
The components to build appear to be a CNC plasma table and brake. Then the parts are put in a jig and welded. You have some leftover material from the plate steel.
Most the time is making the first prototype. A lot of the conversation mounts have the lower half only and cost half as much. Sooo. While the cost is not cheap not sure there would be much profit at half the cost being made the same way.
Most the time is making the first prototype. A lot of the conversation mounts have the lower half only and cost half as much. Sooo. While the cost is not cheap not sure there would be much profit at half the cost being made the same way.
It’s a copyrighted piece, the rights to produce were sold to Modern Driveline by a member here, @Tjfly4pay , of Toddron Restorations. So if anyone would know about making it and how profitable it would be it would be Tjfly4pay. Based on my conversations with him, I would bet it's not nearly as profitable as you might think, and I doubt demand is as high as you think (since it clearly wasn't what Modern Driveline thought it would be). Making small batches is much more expensive than making large batches, and I don't think demand would be high enough to make a batch large enough to save significantly on production costs. And having installed one, it's worth every penny compared to what would be necessary to make it yourself. It absolutely saved me enough time vs fabricating my own to be more than worth its price.
Having fabricated parts like that, no it's not easy, it takes a lot of time to get all the fitting right, and "the right tools" to replicate it would include a CNC plasma table, so, price one of those out.
The ToddRon/Modern Driveline T56 crossmember is a high quality part, and much more sturdy than some of the other options out there. Anyone with the skills to fabricate that piece would charge more to make a one off than the price that crossmember is being sold for, just on labor hours alone. How does the saying go, "if it was easy anyone could do it"?
Exactly!!!
Development costs would be significant, especially since there are different versions of the T56 and T56 Magnum that require different mounting locations, mounts and clearances. I had an early version of the ToddRon crossmember and it needed a little massaging to work with the T56 Magnum I installed, although that was remedied with later versions. You have to cut up an A-body and mount a T56 to get it right, so, that isn't cheap. It's very different making one for yourself with the parts you have than making one for production to fit a bunch different possible of options.
And yeah, that crossmember is produced with a CNC plasma table (could also be done with a CNC water jet), then welded together on a jig, then powder coated. Just the powder coating is a significant cost. And then there's the CNC. And then there's the welding and someone with the skill to do it.
And then there's the fact that all the other lower crossmembers are at least half the cost, and they don't provide the necessary structural component of the upper crossmember. Which I don't care if you have coil overs or not, you need the upper crossmember because it's a significant component of the unibody structure.
DionR
Well-Known Member
How long is the slot for the trans mount bolts?
I've been planning to build my own setup both because they looked to be unavailable and because I am using the Holley G3 mounts that move the motor forward like 1.75". But the slots look fairly long and it seems the factory motor location puts the mount towards the back end of the slot. There might be enough slot built in to make it bolt up without modifications.
340sFastback
Well-Known Member
340sFastback
Well-Known Member
I will be getting started in a month or two with the goal of getting 6 spd swap done by late summer / fall this year. I will put up a new thread in this section once I get started so others can follow along. But doing a full floor replacement and US Car Tools Level 1 stiffening kit so scope is a bit more then just the trans swap. So still trying to get shop organized noodle on the plan a little more ect.
jos51700
Green Bearing thread connoisseur
I'm a design engineer (among other things) and I work in a shop that does this kind of fab work as well as powdercoating. If it came down to it, and someone supplied the kit, I could have those made in no time.
Please note, I will NOT do that without the written permission from the people that own the rights to it.
The hard part about that is coming up with the parts for the R&D work, which I don't have.
Now, the real question: would that make it easy to install an A-500/A-518?
Please note, I will NOT do that without the written permission from the people that own the rights to it.
The hard part about that is coming up with the parts for the R&D work, which I don't have.
Now, the real question: would that make it easy to install an A-500/A-518?
340sFastback
Well-Known Member
As far as could fab up yourself for cheaper sure I say go for it. Some folks might already have steel laying around, are expert fabricators, know what drive line angle should be ect. I don't really have time to be monkeying around trying to figure it all out when I can buy a proven part and put my time elsewhere. And yes the part is stupid expensive but high end quality stuff always is. To me well worth it due to time savings, proven part and all of that....
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Yeah I don't know exactly all the specifics of the deal between Toddron Restorations and Modern Driveline. It's a great crossmember, it would be a shame if it became unavailable.
The crossmember itself should be more than enough to allow for the install of an A500/A518, if anything it would be larger than what it needs to be for an A518. The question would be the location of the actual trans mount since I doubt it would be in the same spot as the T56, and the driveline angle/height of the mount. That transmission is smaller than a T56 externally in most spots so it would likely need the mount raised to maintain the right angle.
I think the "cheaper" aspect is kind of misleading. Sure, if you make one yourself the "out of pocket" cash layout might be less, but what's your time worth? Even if I just paid myself my hourly rate from my job (which is less than the hourly rate a shop would charge for that kind of work) it wouldn't be hard at all to end up with a higher dollar figure than the listed cost. I mean I get it, I don't normally consider what I make when I'm working on my own car, I do it as a hobby. But if I'm gonna make something myself it would be silly not to consider my time vs the cost of buying something that's already made.
And yeah, getting all the angles right, getting all the clearances right, modifying the floor/tunnel, etc takes time. Unless you're super lucky, you're not going to have that all right the first time, which will mean multiple installations and removals of the transmission, additional modifications to the floor, tunnel, and crossmember, etc. More time.
The ToddRon/Modern Driveline crossmember is great, it sets up all the angles right, has plenty of clearance and strength. All of which I have seen other installations have issues with. Heck I think there used to be a lower crossmember that was for sale for the TKO that didn't have the driveline angle right, it cheated on the tunnel clearance and had the tail shaft at a steeper angle to reduce tunnel cutting.
dodgedifferent2
Well-Known Member
I agree it is not as cheap to build the crossmember plus the head scratching time.
Being in manufacturing everyone expects things done cheap but you have to pay the shops bills too.
Can it be copied? Sure, but why would you?
I don't expect too many have been made because everyone is scrambling to the aftermarket t5 trans now.
Everyone seems to have turned their noses up at the t56.
Being in manufacturing everyone expects things done cheap but you have to pay the shops bills too.
Can it be copied? Sure, but why would you?
I don't expect too many have been made because everyone is scrambling to the aftermarket t5 trans now.
Everyone seems to have turned their noses up at the t56.
I get it, with that new T5 set up being able to handle more power it’s definitely an easier swap. Less tunnel work, less crossmember work etc. But I think the T56 has more aftermarket support, and it definitely can handle more power. So long term I think the T56 will be a better bet than a specialty T5 with less applications.
Originally when I was looking into it I didn’t really think I needed 6 gears either. And I mean, I don’t NEED 6 gears, but it sure is nice.
DionR
Well-Known Member
I looked really hard at the TKX when I was trying to pick a direction.
In the end it came down to what I wanted to do with my car. The dividing line, for me, was when I realized how much nicer a T56 would cruise at 70+ mph when compared to a TKX with a similar rear gear. So, if I only planned to tool around my local area even with the 1/2 hour 65mph drive to get into the "big city", a TKX was probably fine. But if I ever wanted to spend 4+ hours in my car on a real highway, multiple times a year, a T56 was going to be more enjoyable. Not the end of the world, a TKX would be fine, but (IMO) a T56 was even better.
When I realized that with a 26" tire and 3.55 gear, the wide ratio T56 Magnum would run through all the gears at about the same RPM's as my Challenger R/T did, I was sold. I should add that when I do my swap, it will be with a 5.7 swap at the same time so functionally it will be the same drivetrain.
But most of the time when I see people talking about putting an overdrive in their car, they generally aren't looking to road trip the car much. They want it to cruise better when they do get on the freeway, but don't expect to do much highway driving beyond maybe one long trip a year. And even if they are, the TKX isn't any worse that the TKO or T5 was in that function so why worry about a 6 speed? And when you can come close to a bolt in deal on some cars, it makes the T56 even less interesting to some.
The last reason I can think of to go for the TKX is if you drag racing the car and want to drive it to the track. You will (probably) never use 5th or 6th on the track, so why worry about getting a 6 speed when a 5 speed will do the job just fine.
For me, if I had decided on the TKX, I would have probably secretly wished I had done the T56 and regretted it. Much like my Challenger and how I was always looking at Scat Packs. So I decided this time to get what I wanted instead of what I think would have been "fine".
Not for everyone, but that's the process I went through.
Not knocking anyone that picked a TKX either. To each their own.
If I was going gen 3 hemi not sure I would consider the TKX. The torque down low would work well with the double overdrive.
I am going solid roller 451 so I went TKX. Kind of a simpler build.
I think the t5 is a nice option for lower horsepower applications.
I have a 68 GTX that I may put the t56 in. If I do I hope the ToddRon option is still available.
The T56 right now is the tremec flagship. It's likely going to be around for a while.
I am going solid roller 451 so I went TKX. Kind of a simpler build.
I think the t5 is a nice option for lower horsepower applications.
I have a 68 GTX that I may put the t56 in. If I do I hope the ToddRon option is still available.
The T56 right now is the tremec flagship. It's likely going to be around for a while.
340sFastback
Well-Known Member
I originally was dead set on TKX then my son said no dad T56 Magnum is where its at. That and others reviews on this forum too. In the end it came down to gear ratios I thought the T56 Magnum close ratio seemed like the best all around trans for what I wanted to do with my car. T56 is heavier, a bit bigger, bit more money those are cons. But the gear ratios, better cruise at speed, top of class shift quality, torque capacity, and reputation for being a great trans won me over.
ESP47
Well-Known Member
Call me crazy but I still don't see what's so difficult about making that upper crossmember. Plasma cutter, grinder, mig and a couple hours and you should be able to recreate that pretty easily out of some flat stock. The price is the reason why you'd do it. I concede that the lower crossmember more than likely wouldn't be worth it since you've gotta be pretty precise with that but the upper should be easy to copy and adapt to other transmissions that don't need all that extra clearance.
Time can be money but it isn't always money if fabricating a crossmember is merely cutting into watching Wheel of Fortune.
Not crazy at all. Not complex at all. Once ya mock up the top side no reason not to do the bottom side with mount. Skill sets vary and so do the expected results.
The only thing complicating the reinforcement on the top side is getting strength while trying to minimize the size of the tunnel. Also transitioning fabbed material to existing without causing stress risers. Likely a bit of leeway here.
Regardless of whether you choose to buy or build it's nice to have options. The ToddRon cross member and mount offers a nice option to buy or ideas to copy at home.
A lot of people do not have plasma cutters.
The only thing complicating the reinforcement on the top side is getting strength while trying to minimize the size of the tunnel. Also transitioning fabbed material to existing without causing stress risers. Likely a bit of leeway here.
Regardless of whether you choose to buy or build it's nice to have options. The ToddRon cross member and mount offers a nice option to buy or ideas to copy at home.
A lot of people do not have plasma cutters.
Yeah but you're taking about copying one, not making one from scratch. Yeah, if you had one in hand (or the patterns), and also had a plasma cutter, and also have a mig welder, and the skills to use both, you could probably produce a copy in a few hours (remember you don't have a jig, so setting it up will take time too). But if you don't have one in hand, it's gonna take a lot longer than that, because you're going to have to install a T56 in your car, make the patterns for the upper crossmember, then make the upper crossmember, fit it, modify whatever it is didn't quite transfer from the patterns to the physical piece, etc. And to even get that far you'd have needed to make the lower crossmember to know where the T56 was gonna sit in the car so you could get the clearances right.
There is also still pretty decent precision necessary for the upper crossmember, since it's located by the lower crossmember mounting bolts and fits inside the torsion bar crossmember. Would you need to make the upper hoop that way? No, but, it's a lot stronger if you do. And if you actually care about the structural integrity of the car it needs to be stronger than the original was (gap is larger, upper hoop is narrower). And unless you make the thing with lots of extra clearance built in, it does need to precisely fit the transmission when the transmission is at the correct angle for the driveline.
Even if you had one in hand, just copying the upper and lower mounts would probably take the better part of a day the first time around. Granted, once you'd made the patterns and fabricated a few you might be able to do it a little faster than that, but we're talking about making one to save yourself some money right?
It always seems easy, and then you've spent an entire day doing it. And if you spend an entire day doing it at the going shop rate for someone that can do that kind of work, you're money behind buying it even at its current price point. Because any shop that could build that crossmember would be charging over $100 an hour. The only way to make money (or save money) building these crossmembers is to have it all set up on a CNC and be making at least dozens of them at a time. Making a one off, if you consider what your time is worth, you're going to have a hard time coming out ahead. That's a lot of 1/4" steel too, plus all the consumables for the plasma and the MIG. There's probably $100 worth of materials there unless you're buying in bulk somewhere.
Sorry, but I've done enough fabrication to know that price isn't excessive. Expensive yes, but not excessive for what you're actually getting. And maybe it's just my skill level, but I know for fact I couldn't have built this quality of crossmember for less than what I paid for it if I even paid myself what I get paid at my job, which sure as heck isn't the going shop rate for that kind of work. If you think it's easy, you're more than welcome to make your own. I'm quite happy with my decision to buy one. Actually, two, because I have one for my Challenger as well.
I haven't done that conversion yet. I did some test fitting on the transmission, that was about as far as I got. The one I have is listed for 70-74 E bodies and 71-74 B bodies, looks like the 66-70 B is listed as a separate part although the pictures on the Modern Driveline website look very similar. Because of the torsion bar crossmember location that's a very different looking crossmember (it sits further back by about 6").
I was thinking the e body and b body would be closer to the same.
Surprised the cross member piece for your E body goes to the rear versus front.
The A body mount looks a little simpler. Thanks for the photo.
Pre planning my B body project. Stroked RB and AC in that one.
Surprised the cross member piece for your E body goes to the rear versus front.
The A body mount looks a little simpler. Thanks for the photo.
Pre planning my B body project. Stroked RB and AC in that one.
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