Too much timing?

Small Block Mopar Engine

  1. RustyRatRod

    RustyRatRod I was born on a Monday. Not last Monday. FABO Gold Member

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    That .050 number sounds like uncompressed thickness. What brand gaskets?
     
  2. Johnny Dart

    Johnny Dart Well-Known Member

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    I don't understand why you guys insist on running so much timming on your mild motors. There is absolutely no reason to run 20degs initial on a mild small block, especially when your total is way off the scale.. Most mild SB's run just fine around 12-34. If you are at a track, ok try some different settings. But for an every day driver/street car, there is no reason to ring the car out on the jagged edge over timming it. 12-14/34-36 will be more than sufficient.
     
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    • RustyRatRod

      RustyRatRod I was born on a Monday. Not last Monday. FABO Gold Member

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      Because of low cylinder pressure. There's nothing jagged edge about it. If it can stand 20 initial limiting total to 34-36, without spark knock and without kicking back on the starter, why not do it? It will run much better. His camshaft has a good little bit of duration, too and that will always benefit with increased initial timing. It's no secret. It's been in the MP engine books for years. ...and not just in the race section. It's very beneficial on the street, as it keeps temps down, make for a more efficient and complete burn. There's absolutely no down side.
       
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      • Johnny Dart

        Johnny Dart Well-Known Member

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        Well, you can talk about all the Mopar books you want, but if he keeps driving his car at 20 initial, 40 all in, he's going to have problems. You even had your slant motor way over timmed, until I mentioned slants don't like a lot of timming. You lowered your timming, all is good. Its just a mild small block, no reason to run the timming on the ragged edge.
         
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        • yellow rose

          yellow rose Overnight Sensation FABO Gold Member

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          He told the OP to cut the total back. Damn. No one is killing anything with timing. Unreal. I’ve run my 11.25:1 junk with 36 total locked out. Never killed that piece of crap.
           
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          • Johnny Dart

            Johnny Dart Well-Known Member

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            Take it easy, its just discussion. No reason to get all upset.

            36 total......very reasonable.
             
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            • 318willrun

              318willrun Utube channel 318willrun

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              My 318 loves 20 initial and 40 total. Track proven. 140 cranks PSI
               
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              • Johnny Dart

                Johnny Dart Well-Known Member

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                Lol, That's special. You trying to pile on me ?
                 
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                • RustyRatRod

                  RustyRatRod I was born on a Monday. Not last Monday. FABO Gold Member

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                  Which is why I suggested he not continue driving it. Are you even reading either of these threads? I knew mine was overtimed right off the bat but didn't want to fine tune it until I knew the cam and lifters were broken in. Go read the thread buddy. I didn't put the timing anywhere because you said so. lol Your input is appreciated, but I ended up where I am because that's what worked.
                   
                • RustyRatRod

                  RustyRatRod I was born on a Monday. Not last Monday. FABO Gold Member

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                  No, it's what works for his and a lot of combos. You do what works for yours, right? Why can't everybody else?
                   
                • Johnny Dart

                  Johnny Dart Well-Known Member

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                  Ok rusty
                   
                • RustyRatRod

                  RustyRatRod I was born on a Monday. Not last Monday. FABO Gold Member

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                  Ok Johnny. lol
                   
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                  • yellow rose

                    yellow rose Overnight Sensation FABO Gold Member

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                    And that 36 total was 36 initial too. Didn’t kill it. I’ve run some stuff as high as 42. That’s what it wanted.

                    And I won’t even discuss that fact that timing light accuracy varies so much it’s not funny. My timing light may say 36 total and yours may say 34. It is what it is. What the plug says is what matters. The timing light is just a number.

                    I’m not upset. Seems you are. You lost your mind because someone didn’t run the timing you think is best. Go read your own posts.
                     
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                    • Johnny Dart

                      Johnny Dart Well-Known Member

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                      You show me where I said everybody else couldn't. Its just my observation of different posts, and timming issues.
                       
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                      • 318willrun

                        318willrun Utube channel 318willrun

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                        The car should be what decides the timing
                         
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                        • Johnny Dart

                          Johnny Dart Well-Known Member

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                          Lost my mind ? Hmm
                          I agree with you on timming lights, timming marks, inaccuracys etc.
                           
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                          • brian6pac

                            brian6pac Well-Known Member

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                            Totally make sense, low pressure = more timing
                             
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                            • RustyRatRod

                              RustyRatRod I was born on a Monday. Not last Monday. FABO Gold Member

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                              You didn't. But to the contrary, no one is suggesting to you to run a different timing setting than what you're happy with and works. Right?

                              That's all we're trying to do. We're making suggestions based on what's worked for us. Not running down what you've done, like you are us.

                              Hay, if his car runs good at 12 initial and 34 total and he's happy, great! IMO, I think it will want more, but the suggestion is to "try" a particular setting and see how it runs. If it spark knocks, kicks against the starter or anything else out of the ordinary, then I would make a different suggestion. I want what's going to work best for Kevin's motor. Whether that's 0 initial or 35 locked out or anywhere in between.
                               
                            • RustyRatRod

                              RustyRatRod I was born on a Monday. Not last Monday. FABO Gold Member

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                              I don't know. Maybe "lost his mind" was a little tough. Johnny's pretty particular about how he does things. You ever seen his under hood shots? Chit man, I wanna go over and eat pizza with him right off the valve cover. His attention to detail is fantastic.....if his stuff runs good where he has it set, I believe him. He just needs to understand there's more than one way.
                               
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                              • Bewy

                                Bewy Well-Known Member

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                                As far as initial timing goes.......
                                The factories had to be conservative...& probably erred on the side of caution....when specifying the initial timing.

                                As for the OPs situation.

                                It doesn't matter where the cam is installed or what the cranking pressure is. He has found the 'sweet spot' of initial timing for THIS engine, 24* BTDC. His test method was quite legitimate. If the engine & starter tolerate it under all conditions, all well & good. Some engines wouldn't, might buck the starter or ping. With this, the fix is manifold connected vac adv with an adjustable VA so that it can be properly calibrated.

                                OP, keep going you are on the right track.

                                For those who think 24* initial is a lot, Pontiacs with 10.75:1 CR, iron heads, & mild cams were driven off showroom floors with 26* idle timing [ 6* init + 20* added with MVA ]. I believe Chevs [ some at least ] had 24*.
                                 
                              • Johnny Dart

                                Johnny Dart Well-Known Member

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                                I understand there is more than one way Rusty.
                                What I'm saying is that you don't have to pump so much timing into a car just to stick your chest out and say look at me, I have 20 initial. Maybe for a quarter mile blast. Backing it down a couple clicks will give you an all around much better running motor, that will also last much longer. No hiccups with the starter, no pinging, no knocking, no burnt pistons, and an overall cooler running engine. I also can run 87 in my cars, Have you seen gas prices in California ?
                                I'm sure Kevin will get it sorted out. :)
                                Thanks for the nice comments.
                                 
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                                • 318willrun

                                  318willrun Utube channel 318willrun

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                                  This comment cracked me up I’ve never in my life seen somebody poke their chest out and be proud of their initial timing LOL
                                   
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                                  • dartfreak75

                                    dartfreak75 Restore it, Dont part it! FABO Gold Member

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                                    Engine was warmed up. Around 150 It was not at WOT. After reading some of these posts I didn't realize 140-150 psi was considered low compression lol my old 318 barely broke 90s haha
                                     
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                                    • dartfreak75

                                      dartfreak75 Restore it, Dont part it! FABO Gold Member

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                                      Im just trying different stuff. I have read different ways to improve performance with timing and tuning and im just trying it out. Im new to this part of it. Im just trying to learn. I agree it does sound extreme I thought it was alot of timing too that what made me want to ask questions. Im gonna have to limit my dissy either way. I originally set it around 14 and it runs good there.
                                       
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                                      • dartfreak75

                                        dartfreak75 Restore it, Dont part it! FABO Gold Member

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                                        Felpro 8553pt 4.180 bore. It doesn't have a listed thickness i measured it at .056 and figured it would compress .006. It may compressed more or less.
                                         
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