Torque Converter Stall vs. Engine Size

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vynn23

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I'm getting ready to swap the 273 in my '67 Dart with a VERY mild 5.2 Magnum. The only changes will be an Eddie Airgap, the 500 cfm AVS2 (currently on the 273), 340/Magnum exhaust manifolds with 2+" outlets and 2.5" duals, and slightly massaged magnum heads (amateur bowl smoothing). My #1 goal is to beat the 16 mpg highway I've achieved with the 273 (but without resorting to OD). The car is strictly a cruiser, meant for long highway trips and reliability.

My plan to use a mid/early 70's A-904 with part-throttle kickdown has fallen through, so for now, I intend to use the existing 904 and torque convertor from the 273 (with seal replacement and fluid/filter change). How will the 273 torque convertor react to the expected increase in power/torque of the Magnum? Will it stall higher, or lower? Since I'm looking for max fuel economy, do I need to look at a new convertor, maybe something meant for towing?
 
I wouldn’t think about it more than you already have if mileage is your main concern. The bigger engine will make more torque and thus, affect the converter but not to any extreme. It might gain 100-200 stall rpm. No big deal and you probably won’t notice it.
 
Before you install this make sure the hub on the converter will pilot into the back of the 5,2 crank. Some 273's has a smaller center hub in the converter.
 
Have you considered a late '70's/early '80's 904 with a lock-up converter? Some of those transmissions came with a 2.74 low gear. Not sure about the converter stall differences but overall it should help fuel mileage and you'll have a newer trans & converter. Some other members may be able to provide a more detailed breakdown on which applications had them and how to confirm if it has the low gear & lock-up by the pan rail stampings.

I believe the '67 273 has the later model larger converter snout/crank register to match the 318. Unless someone swapped in an older engine.

Converters don't interchange between early 273 versions, standard style & lock-up.

Lock-up - non lock-up trans.jpg
 
Have you considered a late '70's/early '80's 904 with a lock-up converter? Some of those transmissions came with a 2.74 low gear. Not sure about the converter stall differences but overall it should help fuel mileage and you'll have a newer trans & converter. Some other members may be able to provide a more detailed breakdown on which applications had them and how to confirm if it has the low gear & lock-up by the pan rail stampings.

I believe the '67 273 has the later model larger converter snout/crank register to match the 318

View attachment 1716438105
YES, and I'd LOVE a lockup trans with the 2.74 low gear, but I haven't had any luck finding one so far (and I've looked...). Any leads or info on locating one would be appreciated. I'm short of a "Parts Wanted" ad until I get the Magnum completed and installed, though I'll try that after.

And yes, I'm hoping the converter snout works with the Magnum. If not, I have the adapter ring for the Magnum crank for the smaller converter size.
 
Not trying to talk you out of better mileage, just be careful what you spend to get it, depending how many miles a year you put could take 5-10+ years to break even, if the mods are purely about money saving, a lot of times it could be cheaper to put it in the tank.
 
Not trying to talk you out of better mileage, just be careful what you spend to get it, depending how many miles a year you put could take 5-10+ years to break even, if the mods are purely about money saving, a lot of times it could be cheaper to put it in the tank.
Thanks, and I appreciate it. I'm trying to balance everything I'm doing towards fuel economy vs. the initial buy-in. Thus, no OD or EFI so far. Both would have nice for benefits beyond just mpg, but I'm not in a position to do either right now anyway.

The trans hasn't been rebuilt since I've owned the car (20+ years), and it's performed flawlessly. If I do as much driving as I'm planning, it will need a rebuild at some point, but I could easily rationalize rebuilding a bolt-in, later model lockup trans for roughly the same out-of-pocket IF I could find one. Something that would require lots of trans tunnel mods or a gear vendors OD are not worth the effort/$$$ to me right now.

The car currently has an 8 3/4" rear with 3.23's for around town. Eventually, I'd like to build an extra pumpkin with 2.76's that I can easily swap in for road trips, and see what that does for highway mileage.

The car's main mission is long, relaxing highway trips across the country, on all the 2-lane roads I can find, with as much reliability as I can get.
 
YES, and I'd LOVE a lockup trans with the 2.74 low gear, but I haven't had any luck finding one so far (and I've looked...). Any leads or info on locating one would be appreciated. I'm short of a "Parts Wanted" ad until I get the Magnum completed and installed, though I'll try that after.

And yes, I'm hoping the converter snout works with the Magnum. If not, I have the adapter ring for the Magnum crank for the smaller converter size.
In case you didn't know about it, the F_M_J body sister website to this one would be a good place for a 904 lock-up wanted ad when you're ready.

For FMJ Bodies Only

Facebook has a few big groups too.
 
The car's main mission is long, relaxing highway trips across the country, on all the 2-lane roads I can find, with as much reliability as I can get.
That ^^^^ to me screams overdrive trans. There is no single modification that will make the car more enjoyable to drive AND no single modification that will return a mileage benefit like it. I won’t build another car/truck without one.
 
YES, and I'd LOVE a lockup trans with the 2.74 low gear, but I haven't had any luck finding one so far (and I've looked...). Any leads or info on locating one would be appreciated. I'm short of a "Parts Wanted" ad until I get the Magnum completed and installed, though I'll try that after.

And yes, I'm hoping the converter snout works with the Magnum. If not, I have the adapter ring for the Magnum crank for the smaller converter size.
Here’s an example of an A999 with LU, which I think is what you’re talking about here. I ran one for many years before converting to a racey 904 from @Duster346
1988-89 LA Small Block Mopar A999 LU Mopar Transmission Dodge Diplomat 5.2L/5.9L | eBay

Heck, he might have a shelf unit he could set you up with.
 
The car currently has an 8 3/4" rear with 3.23's for around town. Eventually, I'd like to build an extra pumpkin with 2.76's that I can easily swap in for road trips, and see what that does for highway mileage.
if it's not tuned for it, you'll likely have the same or worse fuel economy going to lower gears. fuel efficiency is based on a number of different factors, gear ratio being but one of them. though, not stressing the motor and having it hum along at a more comfortable lower rpm is always nice.
 
Here's my kick at the can.
The 5.2M has plenty of torque in stock form. At least plenty enough for what you want to do. Therefore, you don't need much TM(TorqueMultiplication) help from the convertor, Therefore, you can pick a rear gear, that gets your cruise rpm down low, but high enough to be above intake reversion, which should be easy with the cam indexed properly. My guess is that this will be about 2000/2100 rpm. I can show you how to figure that out exactly, see note-2. below.
Lets say yours is at 2100.
Here's the deal, there is NO WAY to give your engine optimum ignition timing at 2100, with the factory style timing advance mechanisms; so yur gunna need a timing computer. I can show you that too, see note 1.
After that, yur gonna need a carb with metering rods, to dial in the cruise AFR.
That will get your cruise optimized.
Now
to get it off the line and moving briskly, yur gunna need a modest stall.
To maximize your fuel economy, the LU is a good idea, as is the 2.74 low gear.
The lower starter gear is worth TWO rear gear ratios LESS than with a 2.45low in the regular A904.
The LU is less valuable in your case, with a stock stall, you might get 100 rpm reduction out of it.
So now, let me lay it out for you;
Get the A998, low gear, non-LU trans
Install a 2.76 or 2.94 rear gear.
Get a 2800 stall.
Get the Cruise timing right with the computer.
Lean the crap out of the cruise AFR..
Forget about the loss of the 100rpm from not having a LU.

Here's how this plays out;
The trans has ratios of 2.74/1.54/1.00
The 2800 will stall at near 1.8 to 2.0 TM.
Your Dart probably has tires of a tic under 26" tall. Lets make it a runout of 81 inches., And so, 65=2500 with 2.94s, or 2300 with 2.76s
Lets install 2.76s, cuz there is a cheap set in nearly every Mopar guys garage, with no home. So that's it we're gunna optimize the engine for 65= 2300.
You're gunna install your intake and 500 carb.
First gear is gunna take off with the starter of 2.74 X 2.76= 7.56, which you know is gunna be lame...... if it was a manual trans; which it's not.
The 2800 TC is gunna have a ratio of about 2/1 at zero mph, so then, that 7.56 is gonna become 15/1 for a few milliseconds. and at 2800, your Magnum might put out 250 ftlbs, so that would be 250 x 15= 3750 ftlbs into the rear axles. Get a posi, cuz she's gunna need it.
Now, as soon as the vehicle starts moving, that 2/1 ratio, is gunna diminish towards maybe 1.4 at the top of first gear. which would then be 2650ftlbs to the road; still pretty healthy. Now, at 4500 in 2.74 first gear, your speed is approaching 42mph, so yur all smiles and lifting off the gas. Meh, 5000 will be 47mph.
Ok so, that's all she wrote for performance.
Now back to economy.
Cruising at 2300 , your engine will want more than 50 degrees of timing, I can practically guarantee that she'll want up to 56degrees.. How are you gunna get it?
Typically, from the mechanical system, you'll get .8 degree per 100 rpm beginning at or near 1000 rpm, so that comes to 10.4 degrees, at 2800.
Lets say you give your automatic-equipped engine a chitload of Idle timing, and it doesn't make a tip-in sag; say 18*.
And let's say you spend three days looking for a VA with max timing of 14*.
Total timing is thus ; 18+10.4+14= 42.4 and yur a good 10 degrees shy.
This is what's gunna break your fuel-economy attempt. You need to get the potential up to 56, and you need to get the Idle-timing down closer to 14*.. Yur gunna need a dash-mounted, dial-back Timing-module, like mine, with a range of 15 degrees; and yur gunna need to modify your VA for about 22degrees.
The total now is say 12 + 10.4 + 22= 42.4, plus with up to 15 in the Dial-back, is up to 57.4, now yur talking.. Now you just, by empirical testing, figure out what your engine wants, and set the DB to that number. Easy-peasy. Just don't forget to dial it back after coming down off the hiway.
and then, you start playing with that AVS-2. You will be surprised to learn how lean you can run when the timing is correct. Yur may need a selection of jet-needles and one or two pairs of smaller Primary jets.

Ok so, notes;
Note-1
How to determine your best cruize timing;
With the VA hooked up to intake manifold vacuum,
Rev the engine up to the desired cruise rpm and fix it there.
Add 5 degrees of timing. If the rpm went up, put the rpm back, then do it again. and keep doing it until more timing does NOT produce an increase in rpm, then take 3 degrees out, and put the rpm back.
Now, read the timing. Write it down before you forget it.
Idle the engine down, and return the timing to as you started with, then let it cool for a few minutes.
What number did you get?
Whatever it was, that is gunna be darn close to the perfect cruise timing; only testing will prove it.

Note-2
How to determine your maximum cruse rpm;
Plumb your VA to the intake, so it sends it's advance.
Run the engine up to 1600 rpm, and measure the engine vacuum.
Increase the rpm to 1800, and measure the vacuum.
Keep repeating for as long as the vacuum keeps increasing. When it stops, go back to the last one that increased. That was the first rpm where efficiency was at it's best. From there you can optimize further with Timing.
If you cruise at a lesser rpm, the engine will lose efficiency about as fast as the reduced rpm gains economy. If you keep reducing the cruise rpm, with no other changes ; loss of efficiency will likely outpace gains from reduced rpm, and so, she will start to lose fuel-economy.

Note-3
This is a tried and true recipe, that got me 32 mpg from a 330hp/360 manual trans, cruising at 75=1850 rpm. Car ran 106 in the quarter, with the only change being a 750DP.
Trans was, at that time, an A833od with a GVod strapped on the back, and 3.55 gears.
 
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2.76 gears, hell of a timing curve and vacuum advance, MSD ignition open plugs up .045, fan clutch, long tube headers, a good front alignment, 205 70 14 tires all around.
 
It's not about engine size. It's about engine TORQUE.
 
VYNN2.3 where are you located. I have a bunch (30+) of 904 style transmissions. Mostely slant six, but I think a couple of small block. They are all "core" trans's.
They are in Florida.
 
I'm getting ready to swap the 273 in my '67 Dart with a VERY mild 5.2 Magnum. The only changes will be an Eddie Airgap, the 500 cfm AVS2 (currently on the 273), 340/Magnum exhaust manifolds with 2+" outlets and 2.5" duals, and slightly massaged magnum heads (amateur bowl smoothing). My #1 goal is to beat the 16 mpg highway I've achieved with the 273 (but without resorting to OD). The car is strictly a cruiser, meant for long highway trips and reliability.

My plan to use a mid/early 70's A-904 with part-throttle kickdown has fallen through, so for now, I intend to use the existing 904 and torque convertor from the 273 (with seal replacement and fluid/filter change). How will the 273 torque convertor react to the expected increase in power/torque of the Magnum? Will it stall higher, or lower? Since I'm looking for max fuel economy, do I need to look at a new convertor, maybe something meant for towing?
Your 67 converter probably will have the 1.550" pilot, and may have 18 splines for the input shaft. Any transmission from 1968 and on will have a 27 spline input shaft. Lockups from 1978-up have a 26 spline input shaft. Post#6 shows the difference between a lockup and non lockup input shaft, but doesn't mention the spline count.
 
Here’s an example of an A999 with LU, which I think is what you’re talking about here. I ran one for many years before converting to a racey 904 from @Duster346
1988-89 LA Small Block Mopar A999 LU Mopar Transmission Dodge Diplomat 5.2L/5.9L | eBay

Heck, he might have a shelf unit he could set you up with.
Let's say I find one of the LU A999's. What controls the lockup on these? Is it all hydro/mechanical, or would I need to retrofit an on/off switch of some kind?
 
Your 67 converter probably will have the 1.550" pilot, and may have 18 splines for the input shaft. Any transmission from 1968 and on will have a 27 spline input shaft. Lockups from 1978-up have a 26 spline input shaft. Post#6 shows the difference between a lockup and non lockup input shaft, but doesn't mention the spline count.
So, I'd need a custom converter to use the old 904 with the Magnum? Damn. I hadn't foreseen that.

Those aren't cheap, and that money would go a long way towards buying/rebuilding an A998 or A999 core.
 
Vinn, Probably not worth the shipping cost for one of my trans's.
You don't need a custom converter for the Magnum and eary 904, just the adapter bushing for the end of the crank.
Their are two different setups on the lockup 904/998/999 trans. One is strickly hydro/mechanical internal to the trans. The other one has a single 12 volt wire that is external to the trans, that the "lean burn" style computer controls. I'm not sure if that is strickly to inhibit the LU function, or if it can select, deselect LU. However if you find one of these transmissions, and need it to work, a toggle switch for 12v will do the job.
I have one of the electrical LU V-8 trans, and a LU slant six trans (that is not electrical) and was going to see if I can use the electrical parts from the V-8 trans, in the slant six trans, but haven't done so, yet.
 

Vinn, Probably not worth the shipping cost for one of my trans's.
You don't need a custom converter for the Magnum and eary 904, just the adapter bushing for the end of the crank.
Their are two different setups on the lockup 904/998/999 trans. One is strickly hydro/mechanical internal to the trans. The other one has a single 12 volt wire that is external to the trans, that the "lean burn" style computer controls. I'm not sure if that is strickly to inhibit the LU function, or if it can select, deselect LU. However if you find one of these transmissions, and need it to work, a toggle switch for 12v will do the job.
I have one of the electrical LU V-8 trans, and a LU slant six trans (that is not electrical) and was going to see if I can use the electrical parts from the V-8 trans, in the slant six trans, but haven't done so, yet.
Thanks for the info.

Okay, I snagged the LU 999 listed above for future rebuild/use, but for the immediate swap, I'll use the '67 TC and trans. Thanks for everyone's help!
 
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