Turbocharger for 318 project

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69bcuda408

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Collecting parts for a single turbocharger setup.

I have:
A good 318 block, 340 J heads, Stock 340 intake, Stock 340 hyd cam (1st try slightly retarded), Eagle billet rods, 273 forged crank. MSD billet distributor (1st try with locked 24 deg).

Need: Forged pistons (8-9 comp ratio w The J heads) suggestions?
Mains girdle (hughes)?
Valves SS/Inconel/Sodium filled?
Blow-thru carb E85 What brand?
Exhaust manifolds (Maybe barr marine for cost/easy routing)?
Single turbocharger (if possible scrapyard item) sizing?
Cometic gaskets
Head studs.

Want 500-600 Hp if possible
Please advise.
 
come on pressure specialists! i want tolearn too. v-8 turbo cars rule...
 
you should contact QuickFuel tech support

they have E85 carbs, you should find out which ones would work well with a turbo setup and how much boost they typically run well with

after that you could zero in on a turbo charger that is in the boost range you need.

also you could send an email to the people building the engine for this car, and ask them for advice... :D

thread about the car:
http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=23340

the place that built the engine:
nelsonracingengines.com

they might be willing to advise you and help you avoid some pitfalls

youtube of the dyno testing:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ov0ADvz6dcA"]Chrysler Hemi Monster! 1600 HP 572 TT Chrysler Hemi from Nelson Racing Engines. View in HD. - YouTube[/ame]

the coronet has 2 gas tanks, one with premium for low boost and one with race gas for high boost. two sets of fuel injection lol !
 
Spindle turbo for that HP level? I don't know about those turbos enuff to say that 1 can surpply enuff boost for that much power.

Now understand that I am not the one to answer this question, but here is mine for you and others; is there a single turbo that can give the boost needed for this power level?
I imagine it'll take about 32 psi for this level.

Am I wrong? Or way off base.

My only referanced knowledge would be a write up from Mopar Muscle

Nice video by the way..
 
Here is 2 other cool turbo 318s to get an idea of what you'll need to get the power you want.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjsscD7nNdo"]68 Dodge Dart Turbo 318 Dyno Pull Mopar - YouTube[/ame]

Stock 318 heads, exhaust manifolds, .467 Crane Cam, 904 auto, 13 lbs on Pump Gas, PT 67
397 RWHP 398 RWTQ, at Horsepower Ranch in Hobart Wa.


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYBTOGxj88E"]Twin Turbo 318 Chrysler Charger V8 on the dyno - YouTube[/ame]

Stock stroke 318, no fancy dry sump oiling, 273 steel crank, H beams, KB's 2 bolt mains...20psi and she loves it! (512 hp)
 
moparlover said:
you should contact QuickFuel tech support

they have E85 carbs, you should find out which ones would work well with a turbo setup and how much boost they typically run well with

after that you could zero in on a turbo charger that is in the boost range you need.

also you could send an email to the people building the engine for this car, and ask them for advice... :D

thread about the car:
http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=23340

the place that built the engine:
nelsonracingengines.com

they might be willing to advise you and help you avoid some pitfalls

youtube of the dyno testing:
Chrysler Hemi Monster! 1600 HP 572 TT Chrysler Hemi from Nelson Racing Engines. View in HD. - YouTube

the coronet has 2 gas tanks, one with premium for low boost and one with race gas for high boost. two sets of fuel injection lol !
Click to expand...
Shut the video off when he said "fully street drivable"......come one now, do you really think that HEMI with the turbos mounted where they are and the air intake designed the way it is will fit in any production car??
 
Nelson is WAY out of most price peoples price ranges. This seems to be a budget type build here.......

Your in the Right Field Stands showing a Nelson Video!
 
to SIZE a turbo to a given engine....you need to figure the CFM requirement of "said engine".

Its Mathematical.

CID X RPM / 3456 = CFM

You need a turbo that will "spool" on "said" engine.

Its easy to OVER-SPIN, or UNDER-SPIN a turbocharger.....because turbochargers require airflow to rotate......and there are a MILLION + different sizes.

I have answered these questions over and over for people here....you dont want to take my advice....fair enough, good luck.

A GT45 will make 500-650 hp...fairly easy...but will run out of CFM around 650hp....and in turn overheat the charge air and detonation will soon follow.

650hp is NOTHING......it doesnt take 700cfm......and turbochargers are available from 150cfm to 1500 cfm....its all about the size of the compressor and turbine wheels'.

For your setup and goals....a GT45 chinese turbocharger is a good fit.

You can reach your goal on LESS than 14psi.
 
Prine said:
to SIZE a turbo to a given engine....you need to figure the CFM requirement of "said engine".

Its Mathematical.

CID X RPM / 3456 = CFM

You need a turbo that will "spool" on "said" engine.

Its easy to OVER-SPIN, or UNDER-SPIN a turbocharger.....because turbochargers require airflow to rotate......and there are a MILLION + different sizes.

I have answered these questions over and over for people here....you dont want to take my advice....fair enough, good luck.

A GT45 will make 500-650 hp...fairly easy...but will run out of CFM around 650hp....and in turn overheat the charge air and detonation will soon follow.

650hp is NOTHING......it doesnt take 700cfm......and turbochargers are available from 150cfm to 1500 cfm....its all about the size of the compressor and turbine wheels'.

For your setup and goals....a GT45 chinese turbocharger is a good fit.

You can reach your goal on LESS than 14psi.
Click to expand...

Good information as always!:D
 
My vote for E85 blow thru carbs is Eric at horsepower Inovation I just did some business with him and just got my carb back this week.

IMG_20130201_044913.jpg
 
rumblefish360 said:
Spindle turbo for that HP level? I don't know about those turbos enuff to say that 1 can surpply enuff boost for that much power.

Now understand that I am not the one to answer this question, but here is mine for you and others; is there a single turbo that can give the boost needed for this power level?
I imagine it'll take about 32 psi for this level.

Am I wrong? Or way off base.

My only referanced knowledge would be a write up from Mopar Muscle

Nice video by the way..
Click to expand...


About 8PSI will get him there depending on how efficient his engine is. BHP=620ish

Prine likes to quote that 8PSI is like a Summer Breeze......... haaaaa

The Garrett GT-35 is really close to the ebay GT-45 specs when using the 1.06AR unit.

View attachment Screen Shot 2013-02-02 at 7.43.51 PM.jpg
 
More boost less RPM

14PSI @ 5400RPM = 604 BHP
 

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  • Screen Shot 2013-02-03 at 7.32.31 AM.jpg
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cool project! I think one day I would love to do a turbo engine! i know absolutely nothing, but about the chinese turbo u listed mad dart, how do they compare to the USA made units? what is a common USA made turbo? i am just wondering, for i do not know.
 
Thanks Mad Dart....we have spoken quite a bit...and verified our information is accurate huh?

Here is a pic showing how I am routing my stuff....this isnt my pic...but same thing:
turbokitSBM.jpg


And THIS PICTURE.....is from back in 2007/2008...3 years after I first thought up this combo:
DSC06863.jpg

DSC06861.jpg
 
As long as the turbocharger is sized pretty close to Optimal, flow should look like this......."with a thermal cam"
[ame="http://youtu.be/ZVBOkTNcB3k"]302 Found[/ame]
 
And the technical breakdown of a turbocharger:
[ame="http://youtu.be/boEbAuh90oY"]302 Found[/ame]
 
Thanks for the response.
The truck exhaust manifold swap might be a good idea.
Fuel pump should manage the boost somehow?
What about max capability for the cometic head gaskets?

A guy nearby has stocked up on turbochargers (mostly holset):
hx55w in68 out 78 19housing t6
hx55w in68 out78 19housing t6
hx55w in68 out78 19housing t6
hx52w in66 out72 19housing t6
hx55w in66 out81 25housing t6
hx55w in66 out 78 25housing t6
hx55w in68 out78 19housing t6
hx55w in68 out 78 19housing t6
hx55 in68 out81 25housing t6*
he551w in74 81out 25housing t6
hx60 in76 out88 32housing. t6*
hx40w in61 out65 17housing t4
hx40w in61 out65 17housing t4
hx40w in61 out65 17housing t4
gt45 in63 out79 a/r 1,33 t6
gt45 in63 out79 a/r 1,33 t6
ta45 in68 out79 a/r 1,15 t6
ta45 in68 out79 a/r 1,15 t6

Perhaps one of the above will do the job?
 
I also want to do something that will hopefully help everyone who is interested in maybe doing a future turbo project.

I will SHOW everyone,....THE FORUMLA's for sizing turbochargers.

When using the formula's below, you will need to use compressor flow maps and work with the formulas until you size the compressor that will work for your application. Compressor flow maps are available from the manufacturer, do a search on the web, I suggest http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/ they have flow maps for every turbo they sell. On the flow maps, the airflow requirements should fall somewhere between the surge line and the 60% efficiency line, the goal should be to get in the peak efficiency range at the point of your power peak. In this article I will walk through an example as I explain it.

In order to select a turbocharger, you must know how much air it must flow to reach your goal. You first need to figure the cubic feet per minute of air flowing through the engine at maximum rpm. The the formula to do this for a 4 stroke engine is:
(CID × RPM) ÷3456 = CFM
318 x 6500 / 3456 = 598.02
The engine will flow 598 CFM of air assuming a 100% volumetric efficiency. Most street engines will have an 80-90% VE, so the CFM will need to be adjusted. Lets assume our 318 has an 85% VE.

318 x 0.85% = 508

So the engine will flow 508 cfm at 85% VE

PRESSURE RATIO
The pressure ratio is simply the pressure in, compared to the pressure out of the turbocharger. The pressure in is usually atmospheric pressure, but may be slightly lower if the intake system before the turbo is restrictive, the inlet pressure could be higher than atmospheric if there is more than 1 turbocharger in series. In that case the inlet pressure will be the outlet pressure of the turbo before it. If we want 10 psi of boost with atmospheric pressure as the inlet pressure, the formula would look like this:
(10 + 14.7) ÷ 14.7 = 1.68:1 pressure ratio.


A compressor will raise the temperature of air as it compresses it. As temperature increases, the volume of air also increases. There is an ideal temperature rise which is a temperature rise equivalent to the amount of work that it takes to compress the air. The formula to figure the ideal outlet temperature is:
T2 = T1 (P2 ÷ P1)0.283
Where:
T2 = Outlet Temperature °R
T1 = Inlet Temperature °R
°R = °F + 460
P1 = Inlet Pressure Absolute
P2 = Outlet Pressure Absolute
Lets assume that the inlet temperature is 75° F and we're going to want 10 psi of boost pressure. To figure T1 in °R, you will do this:
T1 = 75 + 460 = 535°R
The P1 inlet pressure will be atmospheric in our case and the P2 outlet pressure will be 10 psi above atmospheric. Atmospheric pressure is 14.7 psi, so the inlet pressure will be 14.7 psi, to figure the outlet pressure add the boost pressure to the inlet pressure.
P2 = 14.7 + 10 = 24.7 psi
For our example, we now have everything we need to figure out the ideal outlet temperature. We must plug this info into out formula to figure out T2:
T1 = 75
P1 = 14.7
P2 = 24.7
The formula will now look like this:
T2 = 535 (24.7 ÷ 14.7)0.283 = 620 °R
You then need to subtract 460 to get °F, so simply do this:
620 - 460 = 160 °F Ideal Outlet Temperature
This is a temperature rise of 85 °F


Then You need to Know the Density Ratio;
As air is heated it expands and becomes less dense. This makes an increase in volume and flow. To compare the inlet to outlet air flow, you must know the density ratio. To figure out this ratio, use this formula:
(Inlet °R ÷ Outlet °R) × (Outlet Pressure ÷ Inlet Pressure) = Density Ratio
We have everything we need to figure this out. For our 318 example the formula will look like this:
(508 ÷ 656) × (24.7 ÷ 14.7) = 1.36 Density Ratio

Now you can figure Compressor Actual Inlet Flow
Using all the above information, you can figure out what the actual inlet flow in in CFM. Do do this, use this formula:
Outlet CFM × Density Ratio = Actual Inlet CFM
Using the same 318 in our examples, it would look like this:
508 CFM × 1.36 = 690 CFM Inlet Air Flow
That is about a 37% increase in airflow and the potential for 37% more power. When comparing to a compressor flow map that is in Pounds per Minute (lbs/min), multiply CFM by 0.069 to convert CFM to lbs/min.
690 CFM × 0.069 = 47.6 lbs/min
Now you can use these formula's along with flow maps to select a compressor to match your engine. You should play with a few adiabatic efficiency numbers and pressure ratios to get good results. For twin turbo's, remember that each turbo will only flow 1/2 the total airflow.

USING YOUR NUMBERS
A turbocharger compressor map has two axis. On the x-axis (the horizontal one) is the airflow, often in lbs/minute. On the y-axis is the pressure ratio, usually as "1+boost pressure", in bar. Inside the map there are plots for turbine rpm, more or less horizontal lines, efficiency (oval rings) and most often also surge limit - a dotted line.
To use the map, you need to know the airflow you will have through the engine.
Using this value, you can use a map. Draw a line from your air flow (lbs/min) on the x-axis, and a line from the pressure ratio (psi + 14.7 ÷14.7 ). The point of intersection will hopefully be inside one of the higher efficiency rings, about 70%.
You should always have the intersection to the right of the surge limit, otherwise it is no good.
The way to do this is to plot 5-10 intersections (different rpms and boost pressures) in different maps. By having maps for different turbos, and trying different boost pressures and rpm, you can get an idea of how it’s going to work.
Remember this only gives an estimate, you might have to resort to trial and error to get exactly spot on. This way, however, you can be reasonably sure you are in the right ballpark


1 Bar = 14.6 PSI
1 PSI = .06 Bar


When Looking at this Flow Map for a Garrett GT4294R, you can see where all your numbers from the formulas' come into play....
GarrettGT4294RFlowMap_zps2384c58b.jpg


You can see that At : 1.36 Density Ratio....the turbo is spinning.....and at this ratio it is plotted on the map.....it is flowing 35 to 42 lbs per minute.....barely humming along.

There is much more CFM flow to be gained by increasing the PRESSURE RATIO
But You can also see that this particular turbo is almost too small for a 318.....unless 650-700hp is all you want.

It will flow 450-700hp, but at that flow, and Pressure Ratio....it is heating the air, and on the edge of the ÜSEABLE map.

Now Lets look at a Different Map

GT4508R_Comp_zps5e3c498f.jpg


You can see how the airflow moved up and to the right......

Which one is better?

:happy1:









 
mopardude318 said:
cool project! I think one day I would love to do a turbo engine! i know absolutely nothing, but about the chinese turbo u listed mad dart, how do they compare to the USA made units? what is a common USA made turbo? i am just wondering, for i do not know.
Click to expand...

There are 2 that I know of that have with stood the test of time, been beat on by all kinds of engine configurations. First one is the ones I am using "eBay GT 45" and the other is eBay "thumper" 75mm. No failures of any kind. Even on diesel Trucks pushing them to over 50PSI, none have broke. There are guys running twin GT 45's running 7's in the 1/4 with 3600lb cars on mild set ups.

There is a huge *** thread on theturboforums.com proving the reliability of the GT 45 over and over again.

Here you go...

http://www.theturboforums.com/threa...04k-china-turbo-(new-pics)?highlight=Gt45+eay
 
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