**Twin Turbo 67 Dart Project**

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maybe you could try with a diferent distributor and see if it is , sparkplug wires also ?
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Well this is EFI and a dual sync distributor so it cost about $400.00 to switch it out. I will spend the $$ but I don't want to spend $$ chasing down a maybe solution, this is where patients comes to play which I normally have none of.

Yes we did a spark plug wire change and went thru 3 sets of plugs chasing it... Everything is new on this set up so I am leaning toward the dual sync that is the problem cause I bought it used.

If it is the distributor, I may go to a lean burn distributor and grind off 7 of the teeth on the wheel and use it for the cam signal and then buy a separate dedicated crank trigger and throw the Fast Distributer in the trash.
 
needsaresto said:
Maybe it is just the distributor cap.
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Maybe, the engine is still at the shop so I can't check it, sent a message to Brian so I should know hopefully soon.

I am leaning to the hall sensors inside the distributor, reason is we switched out and used LS Coils that are Coil on Plug and had the same issues. With both set ups , we were using the hall sensors in the dual sync dizzy to get cam and crank timing signals that tell the coils when to fire. It seems logical now that we took a break from it and I am thinking more clear. If the pick up sensors are getting an intermediate interruption, the coil or coils will not fire leading to the intermediate miss which you can clearly hear and see with a strobe at the spark plug wires on every cylinder, sperratically.

Am I making sense??
 
Yed.sort of. I gues Im just wondering where the interuption is coming from?

I have seen others have trouble with hall effect sensors,something to do with a ghost signal? Or could they pick up on arcing inside the cap and interpret that as a signal? Thats why I suggested the cap,as I've seen plently of arcing with a juiced ign and a non ribbed cap.
 
needsaresto said:
Yed.sort of. I gues Im just wondering where the interuption is coming from?

I have seen others have trouble with hall effect sensors,something to do with a ghost signal? Or could they pick up on arcing inside the cap and interpret that as a signal? Thats why I suggested the cap,as I've seen plently of arcing with a juiced ign and a non ribbed cap.
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I hear you and thanks for helping me brain storm!

We can rule out the cap because of the set up we did with the LS Coils that came off a running car which have the COP Coil on Plug "its own spark plug wire straight to the spark plug" With this set up the cap is not used nor the standard spark plug wires. However the HALL sensors for the Crank and Cam signals are used to tell the coils when to fire and the Injectors are supposed to squirt fuel. So my thinking is it has to be something interrupting the Signal like you are saying that is causing the sporadic miss fires which are on every cylinder that was verified with the strobe. This strobe test can rule out a fuel problem so I am thinking that it is the Crank Sensor inside the Distributor.

I did notice that when I bought the distributor, "used", it did have fatigue on 1 of the pick up wires at the sensor, it looked like it got over heated and had signs of burning. The tuner when he was setting up the 50* angle noticed it also, I asked him if he did and he said YES. We got so involved in chasing the problem that we forgot to pop the cap and take a peek at it again. I would just about bet that if that wire was fatigued that it is now starting to fail messing up the signal..............

When the engine was first fired i did not hear a miss at all and as we went along it started off lightly which you can hear at the end of the second video and in the third video it was progressively worse for dang sure.

I am thinking it most likely is that fatigued wire that I seen when I first got the distributor....... Dang it
 
CUUDAK said:
Put a $80 Pertronics in it and be done!
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Yes I was going to do that in the beginning but you will only get 1 trigger that way and I need 2 Triggers, Crank and Cam for Sequential. They are actually $56.00 at Rock Auto........ I have a couple Brand New Mopar Distributors but I would need to lock them out and take off the vacuum advance then grind off 7 lobes for the pick up......... Still with the Lean Burn I would need to grind 7 lobes off and use a crank trigger to get both events to the computer.

I think I found the problem though a step was missed in the set up that is Critical to how the engine is timed. I will get into more detail a little later.
Still researching it out.
 
This has to be frustrating. Build up a fantastic engine combo only to be tripped up by a friggin .01$ wire,lol..

So you have eliminated the cap,rotor and coil,plus the plug wires.

Is the fuel inj out of sync?
Have you definitely eliminted fuel as the problem?
Are you using a crank trigger as well,or is this the next step?

I think I found the problem though a step was missed in the set up that is Critical to how the engine is timed. I will get into more detail a little later.
Still researching it out.

Hmm,please get back to us on this.
 
Found this out........ should be an easy fix.

Here the Tooth #1 Crank tooth angle degree was set to 70* BTDC and you can hear that it is not missing and idles pretty clean at 2400RPM.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTi1pGDUS0Q"]Twin Turbo Small Block Mopar - YouTube[/ame]

In this Video Here the #1 Crank Tooth angle is again at 70* BTDC and you can hear it idles pretty clean at 850 RPM, Brian barely touched the throttle and it did not miss at all. But you can hear at the end of the Video it starts its missing, I believe the tuner changed the #1 Crank Tooth angle at that time because he was at the computer.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YF9vv9sccso&feature=related"]Twin Turbo Small Block Mopar - YouTube[/ame]

This is right after where I believe he changed the setting to 75* and from then on we chased our tails the rest of the day.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnIr6J1qTfo&feature=related"]Twin Turbo Small Block Mopar - YouTube[/ame]


Here is that page in Tuner Studio that he sent to me verifying that it indeed from some point of the day was changed to the wrong setting of 75*

View attachment MSQ shot.jpg

This is my notes from when I called FAST Customer Service on October 13th, 2 weeks before I got to the Dyno. I burned 70* into the ECU even before dyno day, so I know for sure it was set at 70*....... It however was changed by the Tuner for some reason.

8 tooth wheel crank trigger no missing teeth, 1 tooth cam wheel
#1 tooth 70* BTDC, but verify accuracy in your set up by rotating crank per your specific ECU instructions.
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Here is my burn to the ECU that we were working with before we found the issue with the spark output, you can see my settings are at 70* and that the Spark Hardware in use was set incorrectly which was fixed and why the engine ended up firing. Another setting I see that is different is mine says to use Cam Signal if Available "SET TO ON" , his is set to "OFF".......

View attachment 1st Burn to ECU.jpg
 
Damn, I have been working and studying this stuff for 3 Days straight now. I am flippin burnt out. Good thing is I am almost positive this is the issue!
 
MadDart
I also noticed that in one it says "Second trigger active on: Falling Edge
The other says "Second Trigger active on: Rising Edge.
~Michael
 
Dartman1969 said:
MadDart
I also noticed that in one it says "Second trigger active on: Falling Edge
The other says "Second Trigger active on: Rising Edge.
~Michael
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Thanks for noticing that...... Rising edge is correct.......... When it was running without misfiring it was with the "Rising Edge" setting and at 70*
 
Gotta love tuning. I hope that iz all that's wrong. Sure would make it an easy fix. I love this build. I can't wait to see it come to life.
 
Congrats Louis!! Sounds great. This is where the men are seperated from the boys. F.I. can be really frustrating! Sounds like you are on to the problem. I just read through this and I am no help here as I am not experienced in the more modern F.I. Dyno day is like lifting weights all day while doing calculous. It is really tiring. I hope this gets resolved so for ya and I wish you the best. Keep us posted.
 
Hey Louis, go ahead and don´t let these bugs fool you...you already proved to us that you can do it, go for it!!!

Please keep posting here, Mopar Guys all over the world are waiting for your results! This build was always an inspiration for me!

Good Luck!

Michael
 
yeah you have us waiting for updates don't let us without them now :protest: lol.
 
Mad Dart said:
I hate to say it but I believe this is the case.

On another note, still working out the problems. Will be back on the Dyno in about 2 Weeks.
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This build has definately inspired me as well, keep it up man. We all know you can do this and figure out the problem, you are sharp as a tack and quicker than any car you could build
 
Great, business as usual.

I called DIYautotune and spoke to one of the head guys over there. They also seem to think that I am getting Signal loss due to the small 8 tooth crank wheel that is in the Dizzy It is only sending information to the ECU every 90* is what I am told. There is a patch for the software but he told me they DO NOT Recommend installing it into a Pre Built ECU because it should have the latest firmware.

So as of now I will more than likely be installing a 36-1 Crank Trigger to get more timing information to the ECU. I will not be using a "FLYING MAGNET", it will be a Standard "HALL" Sensor. The thing is when you do this on a SBM, your options are limited. I will need to find a 36-1 crank wheel that I can stick in a Lathe and open up enough to put on the back of the Crank Pulley. It then gets welded to the Pulley, put back in the Lathe and Trued Straight, I will also need to make a custom bracket to hold and adjust the sensor into position. The Dizzy will only be used for the Cam Signal, it has 1 tooth on it but this is standard and should work out fine.
 
Mad Dart said:
Great, business as usual.

I called DIYautotune and spoke to one of the head guys over there. They also seem to thing that I am getting Signal loss due to the small 8 tooth crank wheel that is in the Dizzy It is only sending information to the ECU every 90* is what I am told. There is a patch for the software but he told me they DO NOT Recommend installing it to a Pre Built ECU because I should have the latest firmware.

So as of now I will more than likely be installing a 36-1 Crank Trigger to get more timing information to the ECU. I will not be using a "FLYING MAGNET", it will be a Standard "HALL" Sensor. The thing is when you do this on a SBM, your options are limited. I will need to find a 36-1 crank wheel that I can stick in a Lathe and open up enough to put on the back of the Crank Pulley. It then gets welded to the Pulley, put back in the Lathe and Trued Straight, I will also need to make a custom bracket to hold and adjust the sensor into position. The Dizzy will only be used for the Cam Signal, it has 1 tooth on it but this is standard and should work out fine.
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Kind of sounds like a band aid fix, that dizzy is used by a boat load of people with very little issues, at least from what I have seen/read.......
 
inkjunkie said:
Kind of sounds like a band aid fix, that dizzy is used by a boat load of people with very little issues, at least from what I have seen/read.......
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I have done a ton of research and it is a hit & miss using this distributor. Higher the RPM, the more problems people have. There are also Rotor phasing problems all over the net. Some as far off from the correct spark Plug by 30*.

I don't know about a band aid fix. Most use a 36-1 wheel because it will for sure send more information to the ECU. More teeth on the wheel the more timing information "engine position" is available, so every 10* of crank rotation information will be sent to the ECU with a 36-1 Crank Trigger. Remember the Dizzy Crank wheel "8 Tooth" is set up at cam speed also instead of crank speed, so there is no conversion with the 36-1 wheel spinning at crank speed compared to the 8 Tooth wheel inside the Dizzy.
 
you can get the 36-1 wheel and sensor from a ford crown vic , mustang or explorer equiped with edis8 and re drill it for the 360 crank .Its actually what I'm going to use on my truck(36-1 wheel not the whole edis8) keep us posted.
 
Man I'm glad wont have this issue as my motor has this built in. Since the Hemi ram on fuel injection I'll use the stock stuff. And just get the mega squirt to see the sensors.
 
03ramit1 said:
Man I'm glad wont have this issue as my motor has this built in. Since the Hemi ram on fuel injection I'll use the stock stuff. And just get the mega squirt to see the sensors.
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Yeah, I hear that. Funny thing is I was going to put a crank trigger on it from the get go, but didn't end up doing it. These issues will soon be worked out and the next guy who takes on a project like this hopefully won't need to deal with them.
 
DODGESTRIKE said:
you can get the 36-1 wheel and sensor from a ford crown vic , mustang or explorer equiped with edis8 and re drill it for the 360 crank .Its actually what I'm going to use on my truck(36-1 wheel not the whole edis8) keep us posted.
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Thanks, I will look into it. Do you know off hand how big the wheel is? 6 inch 7 inch?
The reason I want to mount it on the back of the Crank Pulley instead of the front is if for some reason I loose a belt, there is less chance of it taking out the wiring, plus it will look a little cleaner with the brackets etc.
 
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