Uneven main clearances after line hone – could the machine shop have messed up?

[Oldmanmopar]

Good lord, there is NOTHING wrong with line honing a block, it's done EVERY DAMN DAY, by the best machine shops in the states. Maybe certain shops, cant do it, like the one claiming this nonsense, but trust me, it is NO issue when done correctly.

Every new race block that comes here is line bored when made. Honing is a thing of the past. Not saying it can't be done . That's like using stones on valve seats. The new way is multi angle cutters. Some shops don't have new equipment and they are stuck doing tings the old way. Old machinist using old machines. . I wouldn't let anyone line hone my block. That's when you chance getting unequal bores . That doesn't happen with a cutter.

$40,000 for a head machine to upgrade from the old one and that had cutters. Two heads at the same time everything is identical . These engines are not getting easy to replace. Why ruin the with old school technology

 

[Barracuda_v8]

Good. Are you using a bore gauge?

I measured with my 100 bucks bore gauge earlier today and yeah a little better clearence than with plastigauge, but I will take it to the shop tomorrow and have them measure aswell.

 

[NC Engine Builder]

Every new race block that comes here is line bored when made. Honing is a thing of the past. Not saying it can't be done . That's like using stones on valve seats. The new way is multi angle cutters. Some shops don't have new equipment and they are stuck doing tings the old way. Old machinist using old machines. . I wouldn't let anyone line hone my block. That's when you chance getting unequal bores . That doesn't happen with a cutter.

$40,000 for a head machine to upgrade from the old one and that had cutters. Two heads at the same time everything is identical . These engines are not getting easy to replace. Why ruin the with old school technology

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GTFOH with your nonsense. Some of us DO the work that you TALK about. According to you, you arnt even a machinist, your "kid" supposedly is. That nobody has ever heard of. You have ruined ANOTHER thread, the guy simply asked advice about his block and you just HAD to jump in talking bullshit about the machine shop that did the work, on a block you have NEVER SEEN, or measured, and trashing the procedure used like you even have a clue. All your doing is trying to come off as smarter than everyone else, boastful and arrogant, thinking your kid has better equipment than anyone else. newsflash son, he doesn't.

 

[MOPAROFFICIAL]

I measured with my 100 bucks bore gauge earlier today and yeah a little better clearence than with plastigauge, but I will take it to the shop tomorrow and have them measure aswell.

Can always polish the crank journals a lil. There are a few ways one can approach this

 

[ValiantRacing]

I had to mix up the bearings, and then it was all good on my 340, the bearings are all over the place seems like anymore.

 

[Barracuda_v8]

I had to mix up the bearings, and then it was all good on my 340, the bearings are all over the place seems like anymore.

The number 3 and 5 cant be place anywhere else. But I guess i can do what you suggest with 1, 2 and 4.

 

[mygasser]

The number 3 and 5 cant be place anywhere else. But I guess i can do what you suggest with 1, 2 and 4.

maybe buy another set of bearings so you have more to choose from. your machinist may even have odd bearings left over from previous builds.
neil.

 

[XFX]

Yea, some crazy talk going on in this one. I wonder how many machine shops owners ask this of customers : You spend a lot of time on the internet?

 

[NC Engine Builder]

The number 3 and 5 cant be place anywhere else. But I guess i can do what you suggest with 1, 2 and 4.

A different set of bearings. I have seen a pretty large variation between say a std clevite bearing versus a std king bearing for example. Quality control is terrible these days

 

[Oldmanmopar]

GTFOH with your nonsense. Some of us DO the work that you TALK about. According to you, you arnt even a machinist, your "kid" supposedly is. That nobody has ever heard of. You have ruined ANOTHER thread, the guy simply asked advice about his block and you just HAD to jump in talking bullshit about the machine shop that did the work, on a block you have NEVER SEEN, or measured, and trashing the procedure used like you even have a clue. All your doing is trying to come off as smarter than everyone else, boastful and arrogant, thinking your kid has better equipment than anyone else. newsflash son, he doesn't.

I only stated facts . Line honing is a thing of the past. . If that's all you have then it will have to work for you. Many shops that use a line hone don't end up with a perfect bore. And they usually take material out of the block. How many times can you line hone a block and keep the cam and crank the correct distance apart. You can dis me all you want you always do.

How would you cut new main caps in a block? Line boring is the only way. The block keeps the same depth unlike honing. He does a lot of blocks here and he uses a line bore with cutters on all of them.

I guess you would install these side bolt caps with a line hone too. Steve is a small shop but has all new machines. He worked for someone for many years with old machines and he used a line hone there. The only reason your line honing blocks is because that's all you have to do the job. Do you have a line bore? I didn't think so.

Can you do the job and get by with a hone? Yes you can but no where near as accurate as cutters on a line bore. But like always your skills are so much better with your junk.

And about the machine shop that did the line hone. The shop should have told him to have the bearings and crank there to set the clearance for the customer and he wouldn't have even started this thread. I am the one that first told him to get .001 over size bearings and don't take it back to the shop that let it go out the door. Were you the one that did the job? no wonder. Didn't he get an engine shipped here from one of your customers to fix.

 

[NC Engine Builder]

I only stated facts . Line honing is a thing of the past. . If that's all you have then it will have to work for you. Many shops that use a line hone don't end up with a perfect bore. And they usually take material out of the block. How many times can you line hone a block and keep the cam and crank the correct distance apart. You can dis me all you want you always do.

How would you cut new main caps in a block? Line boring is the only way. The block keeps the same depth unlike honing. He does a lot of blocks here and he uses a line bore with cutters on all of them.

I guess you would install these side bolt caps with a line hone too. Steve is a small shop but has all new machines. He worked for someone for many years with old machines and he used a line hone there. The only reason your line honing blocks is because that's all you have to do the job. Do you have a line bore? I didn't think so.

Can you do the job and get by with a hone? Yes you can but no where near as accurate as cutters on a line bore. But like always your skills are so much better with your junk.

And about the machine shop that did the line hone. The shop should have told him to have the bearings and crank there to set the clearance for the customer and he wouldn't have even started this thread. I am the one that first told him to get .001 over size bearings and don't take it back to the shop that let it go out the door. Were you the one that did the job? no wonder. Didn't he get an engine shipped here from one of your customers to fix.

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Nice back pedal. You are correct that many shops cant do it correctly. Lots CAN however. And if installing new caps, like 4 bolt replacement caps, it absolutely needs line bored first, as those caps are normally way undersize, and you could not hone that. But on a worn factory block, with distorted main bores, there is no way to bore it on center without doing exactly what you claim to avoid. You think you can clean up a oval housing bore with a boring bit and not affect the centerline? Tell us your not a machinist without telling us your not a machinist

 

[Max1196]

****, my bigest concern was to be sure to strap on that cut-up oil pump segment to simulate the as- installed distortion it creates.

 

[MOPAROFFICIAL]

Nothing like a good ole pissing contest.

Sometimes we offend people with the way we deliver our criticism of methods or parts or whtevr.. and some people read it as gospel.. like any other way is obsolete and inferior.. like its all the sudden wrong...wrong for 100 years? Roll eyes..

People... records have been made and broken with archaic deemed obsolete equipment and parts... I won't even go into how I learned on a fkd up mandrel how to line hone.. loosening caps to start and all.. oh yeah... had to flip the block too... Stones tapered.. I remember bore gauging a block from there and saying oh ****.. I can catch my nail.. so stake, measure, stake some more.. torque and remeasure.. finally got it spot on... ran great... best oil psi for full grooves too..
...I remember light checking rods for twist and bends.. straighting them in a vice..
Its not always the equipment.. its the machinist operating it...Its experience and or a good teacher... hell I remember the first time and the only time I left my foot on the air table as I cut for a hardened seat...lol... needless to say that head was done as the seat just fell in.
How about we just relax a little bit and remember there are a bunch of people in the business on this site and speaking in definites can be dangerous..

 

[Oldmanmopar]

I am 70 years old and had mills and lathes since I was young. I was never a engine machinist by trade. But always built my own engines we street raced in the 70's.

Steve started with my old bridge port series one and II plus lathes I had , when he was in in grade school. I had every attachment they made from my Dad before he was killed in 1986 and Steve still has them stored in his big garage. I have a series one here yet like new with a DRO he has no room for at his place. I don't have it hooked up I want to get it out of here I don't use it.

I am not stupid when it comes to machine work. But I do know all the machines I had even though they are like new are old school compared to some of the new machines today

A young Machinist that can run old manual machines are hard to find. Finding new manual machines even more scarce

Most of young machinists only know CNC programing that is what they teach in school. I don't think you can get a new manual 40 taper Rottler bed mill they are all CNC

 

[RustyRatRod]

Nothing like a good ole pissing contest.

Sometimes we offend people with the way we deliver our criticism of methods or parts or whtevr.. and some people read it as gospel.. like any other way is obsolete and inferior.. like its all the sudden wrong...wrong for 100 years? Roll eyes..

People... records have been made and broken with archaic deemed obsolete equipment and parts... I won't even go into how I learned on a fkd up mandrel how to line hone.. loosening caps to start and all.. oh yeah... had to flip the block too... Stones tapered.. I remember bore gauging a block from there and saying oh ****.. I can catch my nail.. so stake, measure, stake some more.. torque and remeasure.. finally got it spot on... ran great... best oil psi for full grooves too..
...I remember light checking rods for twist and bends.. straighting them in a vice..
Its not always the equipment.. its the machinist operating it...Its experience and or a good teacher... hell I remember the first time and the only time I left my foot on the air table as I cut for a hardened seat...lol... needless to say that head was done as the seat just fell in.
How about we just relax a little bit and remember there are a bunch of people in the business on this site and speaking in definites can be dangerous..

That's one of the best posts I've ever seen you make. Who are you and what have you done with Justin?

 

[MOPAROFFICIAL]

That's one of the best posts I've ever seen you make. Who are you and what have you done with Justin?

Usually I'm stirring the pot? I've done a lot i don't talk about.. not into arguing everything all the time.
Then again.. maybe I'm practicing for moderator . lmao

 

[MOPARMAGA]

Good lord, there is NOTHING wrong with line honing a block, it's done EVERY DAMN DAY, by the best machine shops in the states. Maybe certain shops, cant do it, like the one claiming this nonsense, but trust me, it is NO issue when done correctly.

Just about to say the same thing.

 

[MOPARMAGA]

.01 would be 10 thousands. You need to go .001 1 thousand more clearance. Your to tight. The machine shop probably honed the block with a bar with stones. We do not line hone. Only line bore. .

When ever you line hone you are taking material out of the block and cap. this moves the crank closer to the cam. If you do that on a gear drive engine such as big diesels the lash on the gears will be tight.

We set up the line boring bar to cut the material out of the cap. a boring bar has cutters and are precise. a hone has stones and they wear on the ends and you usually have to turn the block around to try and get an even hone. If a shop says line hone run away. All race blocks are line bored from new and should never be honed.. Never cut the saddles only the caps and you cannot do that with a hone. Honing is to size cylinder bores.

You can't take it back to that shop. You'll end up with junk. Be happy you can fix their screw up with over size bearings. One more hone job by them you'll need a special shorter timing chain. I think the shortest one is .010 under. If anything take it to someone with a new line bore machine. We cand do up to a 5 foot block.. Line bore not 1930's line hone. That was OK for the old flat heads with three mains.

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If you're going to tell people numbers, use the correct terminology "thousandths" not thousands.

 

[MOPARMAGA]

That is if you take the material out of both. With cutters you can put the block where you want and cut just the caps. With a hone the stones need to cut the inner diameter same top and bottom, and as the stone wears the diameter gets smaller. cutters cut the surface true all the way through . Each cutter can be adjusted separately. Stones lose surface as they wear going through..

Stones lose surface, yes. But just like any hone with stones you readjust them then they go back out where they were.
Cutters also grow as the bore from heat, so there's that little fact.
Taking material out of the block doesn't harm a thing. Never has, never will.

 

[Dan the man]

I have a couple of questions, so please don't fly off the handle everyone. If material is removed from the block doesn't this move the crankshaft closer to the cam which to me would cause slop in the timing chain even if it's only a small amount? Also if the block is align honed or align bored and you're going to be using a main stud girdle, windage tray don't these need to be installed on the block along with the oil pump?

 

[RustyRatRod]

I have a couple of questions, so please don't fly off the handle everyone. If material is removed from the block doesn't this move the crankshaft closer to the cam which to me would cause slop in the timing chain even if it's only a small amount? Also if the block is align honed or align bored and you're going to be using a main stud girdle, windage tray don't these need to be installed on the block along with the oil pump?

That's why you BARELY SKIM the block side when line boring or honing and take most of the cut out of the caps. Good shops will machine a small amount off the face of the caps where they meet the block so most of the material comes off the caps. Most times, .005" or less is taken from the block side if it's done correctly.

 

[MOPAROFFICIAL]

I have a couple of questions, so please don't fly off the handle everyone. If material is removed from the block doesn't this move the crankshaft closer to the cam which to me would cause slop in the timing chain even if it's only a small amount? Also if the block is align honed or align bored and you're going to be using a main stud girdle, windage tray don't these need to be installed on the block along with the oil pump?

Si. Hence a .010 smaller chain set.

 

[MOPAROFFICIAL]

That's why you BARELY SKIM the block side when line boring or honing and take most of the cut out of the caps. Good shops will machine a small amount off the face of the caps where they meet the block so most of the material comes off the caps. Most times, .005" or less is taken from the block side if it's done correctly.

.003-.005, caps a hair loose..lol

 

[Oldmanmopar]

That's why you BARELY SKIM the block side when line boring or honing and take most of the cut out of the caps. Good shops will machine a small amount off the face of the caps where they meet the block so most of the material comes off the caps. Most times, .005" or less is taken from the block side if it's done correctly.

You cannot take more out of the cap with a hone, A hone takes the same amount around the diameter. A bore you can cut the cap and skim the block with a cutter. My point all along. You can move a bore with a cutter . you can only enlarge a bore with a hone

 

[Dan the man]

Si. Hence a .010 smaller chain set.

I have heard of those before, thanks for the reminder.