70DusterBob
Well-Known Member
Bob That was my distributor!
Loving this thread.
LOL! I "AM" positive your distributor cleaned it up so much!! No doubt, it runs like a bat out of hell now. But why would it read lower on the dyno sheet? I don't get it.
Vaporizing Fuel w/my Device... Results...
- Thread starter 70DusterBob
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LOL! I "AM" positive your distributor cleaned it up so much!! No doubt, it runs like a bat out of hell now. But why would it read lower on the dyno sheet? I don't get it.
No clue at all.
70DusterBob
Well-Known Member
Me neither. I emailed the dyno owner/operator and asked him, but it is the weekend.
Stay warm!!
Think you need a serious engineer involved now.
70DusterBob
Well-Known Member
I'm gonna work on trying to get that 750 set up with the parts I had in it before. If it pulls harder than the 650 the way it is, I guess I'm just trippin', but I seriously doubt it. I'm starting today right after lunch here...
Your distributor kicks living Butt dude!!
Thanks again for it.
70DusterBob
Well-Known Member
I noticed the a/f got leaner on these runs, does that mean the a/f was way to rich before hand? I could possibly have too large of jets in it.
70DusterBob
Well-Known Member
I worked on the 750 a little today. It was way too rich. Gonna have to go in and lower the jet size.
70DusterBob
Well-Known Member
I make these for the ladies, but this is average detail, not too much. I just would have to change the design, lol
mopowers
Well-Known Member
Am I missing something? The before and after dyno runs were a year and a half apart???
mderoy340
Well-Known Member
The two dyno runs are apples to oranges. Different carbs, jetting, etc. IMO you need to be on an engine dyno so you can document all data, air/fuel flow, egt, hp/tq, etc.
You probably need to make a test plan for a single cylinder engine with detailed before and after test results. HP/TQ increase, fuel flow decrease, etc. A single cylinder engine test reduces variables like intake runner length, single plane or dual intake, etc. Prove your design works on any carb engine for the patent.
Once you get the patent then you get a motor on an engine dyno (controlled environment) to get marketing data to sell the product. "This Genuine GM Crate small block chevy made xx hp and tq using xx% less fuel by simply bolting on this part and reducing all four main jets 2 sizes."
You probably need to make a test plan for a single cylinder engine with detailed before and after test results. HP/TQ increase, fuel flow decrease, etc. A single cylinder engine test reduces variables like intake runner length, single plane or dual intake, etc. Prove your design works on any carb engine for the patent.
Once you get the patent then you get a motor on an engine dyno (controlled environment) to get marketing data to sell the product. "This Genuine GM Crate small block chevy made xx hp and tq using xx% less fuel by simply bolting on this part and reducing all four main jets 2 sizes."
70DusterBob
Well-Known Member
The runs in Oct 16 were done with a Holley 750 double pumper. It was about 86 degrees. I did before and after runs then, and I did before and after runs last Mon with a 650 Holley DP at 65 degrees. The 750 was, I think, too much carburetor for my 360CID because the 650 blew it away judging by the seat of my pants.
When I nailed it with the 650 it was so many more G's that I was forced into my seat so hard I could not lift my head. I could barely see the road it was so much power because it was forcing my head back. When I slacked off the peddle to shift, I would have eaten my steering wheel because the G's slacked off and I was thrust forward so hard that the shoulder harness/seat belt, had to catch me! When I hit second it threw me in my seat like Godzilla throwing a rag doll around! That was some "serious" power, and that was it for my timing chain.
I realize now that the chain had probably been weakened by the 100 times I had gone WOT before that testing other designs, but I'm serious, that car threw me around. The 750 would put me in my seat, but never did it thrust me towards the steering wheel, or throw me back into the seat. It was running quite a bit lean. I had some small jets in it, and didn't know till I got on the Dyno that it was "that" lean. But there was a huge difference between the 750 and 650, more than just a 20 degree atmospheric difference could make. Any ideas?
70DusterBob
Well-Known Member
Please read the reply I made to the post right before this one. I answered the question I had concerning two diff carbs being tested. I did test the same carb on the same day. The two carbs were 1.5 years apart, but only 20 degrees apart. The results just seem strange to me. However:
How can I get a single cylinder, for example a 20hp lawn tractor engine on a dyno? I have no idea where to find a dyno for a single cylinder?
Before and after runs were made in both Oct 2016, and Jan 18. Two separate before and afters. My question is how could the dyno say I am pulling more then than now when the engine clearly has more power now.
I have emailed the dyno owner, who is probably the only one who could answer this question, but I agree, if there is a way to dyno a single cylinder engine. I don't know how to do that but I do have a 20hp lawn tractor with a Kohler engine if you know how I can find a single cylinder engine dyno.
Thanks
Mattax
Just the facts, ma'am
You guys must have the charm, I tried to attach a pdf yesterday and was told "nyet".
The only thing that those graphs show is that there was a change in power with an apparent change in AFR. Apparent because there was also a change in timing, although based on the limited info available, its probably real. The spark plugs will confirm or disprove that. Expand the scale, but it looks like a large jump in AFR. In any event, the timing and fueling go hand in hand, so yes the timing curve could have, and probably did, change the Hp.
I was going to write that the only way to compare /device, no device/ would be ABBA test with the same fueling and timing (and if relevant, carb spacing & plenum volume)
However, then I read that the recent test was done in 2nd gear and the previous test was done in 3rd gear. That changed load, lets the engine spin up faster, and I wouldn't trust the AFR interpretation either, although it shouldn't have been effected - I've seen it happen.
As far as the temperature and humidity go, that can be mostly addressed using a corrected Hp calculation. However it is important to be sure the Dynojet software has not be changed, and that the fuel is the same. Fuel differences can be partly addressed by using lamda instead of AFR, but there still may be Hp differences. Best off using something consistant.
With all that, then the device can be compared to determine if it is really the cause of the change. A MAP (or vac gage) would help understand what is going on. To recap: Get the timing, load and AFR the same. Same carb, spacing and plenum volume. Then the comparison will be mostyly what is wanted: whether the device changes the vacuum, the atomization or distribution in a way that makes a difference to power.
The only thing that those graphs show is that there was a change in power with an apparent change in AFR. Apparent because there was also a change in timing, although based on the limited info available, its probably real. The spark plugs will confirm or disprove that. Expand the scale, but it looks like a large jump in AFR. In any event, the timing and fueling go hand in hand, so yes the timing curve could have, and probably did, change the Hp.
I was going to write that the only way to compare /device, no device/ would be ABBA test with the same fueling and timing (and if relevant, carb spacing & plenum volume)
However, then I read that the recent test was done in 2nd gear and the previous test was done in 3rd gear. That changed load, lets the engine spin up faster, and I wouldn't trust the AFR interpretation either, although it shouldn't have been effected - I've seen it happen.
As far as the temperature and humidity go, that can be mostly addressed using a corrected Hp calculation. However it is important to be sure the Dynojet software has not be changed, and that the fuel is the same. Fuel differences can be partly addressed by using lamda instead of AFR, but there still may be Hp differences. Best off using something consistant.
With all that, then the device can be compared to determine if it is really the cause of the change. A MAP (or vac gage) would help understand what is going on. To recap: Get the timing, load and AFR the same. Same carb, spacing and plenum volume. Then the comparison will be mostyly what is wanted: whether the device changes the vacuum, the atomization or distribution in a way that makes a difference to power.
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jos51700
Green Bearing thread connoisseur
When I was about 17, I mailed off a letter to a guy making similar claims, and he would send me fliers talking about his new fuel vaporizer and it made so much more power and so much better economy and hee made other versions but BIG OIL bought up his patents somehow and kept holding him under.
The claims of that device and this were nearly identical. Back then, you'd see these ads in popular mechanics or some such.
He finally sent a picture, it was basically a glass jar with a line running to the intake, and a fuel inlet, and circulating coolant to vaporize the fuel.
I'm skeptical, at best.
Sop much power it snapped a timing chain? Really?
The claims of that device and this were nearly identical. Back then, you'd see these ads in popular mechanics or some such.
He finally sent a picture, it was basically a glass jar with a line running to the intake, and a fuel inlet, and circulating coolant to vaporize the fuel.
I'm skeptical, at best.
Sop much power it snapped a timing chain? Really?
70DusterBob
Well-Known Member
I didn't say it snapped the timing chain, it stretched it a bit. Too far out to be of use. I know what I'm up against, skepticism, doubts, people have been claiming these devices for a long time. I am trying to be as non-"Absolutely Positive" about my device as I can be, yet some people read that I am saying this is the absolute solution to all our gas problems. I'm not saying that. It increases HP and Torque, w/o restriction. That is about as much as I have claimed so far. I don't have numbers nailed down yet. I have posted the results I have gotten. They are not out of this world.
70DusterBob
Well-Known Member
Why do you think it says the timing was changed? It is a graph showing torque and HP increases...
70DusterBob
Well-Known Member
I guess that's good for me folks.
If I have anything besides this device to post, I'll post.
If I have anything besides this device to post, I'll post.
jos51700
Green Bearing thread connoisseur
Given that, I'll remain objective and see where you end up.
Mattax
Just the facts, ma'am
Were all the tests with Halifaxhops reworked distributor?
mderoy340
Well-Known Member
Mattax
Just the facts, ma'am
That was basically my point too (sorry if it wasn't clear). It looked to me like the AFRs were not the same in any of the pairings posted.
Probably better to initially test on a carb dyno setup.* Testing on a single cylinder engine would be best to do with a carb that's more suited for single cylinders. Just offering ideas here. IIRC Obert or Taylor reference carburetion tests using single cylinder engines. Who knows, those facilities may still be around.
*see the Revolution inertia dyno used in the BLP Carb Shootouts.
Anybody up for carb shootout results? - Yellow Bullet Forums
2013 CARBURETOR SHOOT OUT @ BLP - Speed Talk
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70DusterBob
Well-Known Member
All the tests on Jan 08, 18 were run with Halifaxhops distributor, the ones back in Oct 16 were not. That is another reason I am confused as to why the 750 that was running lean with a distributor that wasn't worth anything could out perform his distributor with a well tuned carb a smooth as crap power curve and a better proto!! My memory isn't the greatest, but I know the 750 didn't toss me around like a rag doll in the cockpit, and I will never forget the 650, with Halifaxhops distributor did/does!
70DusterBob
Well-Known Member
Thank you.
By the fuel curve base line, do you mean the acc pump cam lobes, and power valves the same? If so, no they weren't. I had the orange cam lobes on the 750 and the pink ones on the 650, also, I have adjustable linkage on the secondaries that was pulling the secondaries open sooner on the 650. Everything I know of points to more power on the 650 run, but it was lower. I can't for the life of me figure it out. Does it seem to you that the 20* would drop my hp or increase it? I just finally got the timing chain changed, but it still had the power I had when I first set it up 6 months ago in summer, albeit not quite as much, it was still more than the 750 set up it seems like. Maybe I need to get the 750 running with the same set up I had it at and see one run after the other if the 750 has more than the 650. Like put the 650 on, drive it, then put the 750 with the same set up it had on in on and see what it does at the same temperature to be certain. I'll try that. I can be sure due to the crazy weather were having, but I'm in S. Tx and it is warm here half the time, even in winter.
But if you can let me know, do you know if a 750 will out perform a 650 with identical cams, power valves and the same position of secondary linkage?
Thanks
70DusterBob
Well-Known Member
On the 2016 runs, I had the 750 on it, made 3 runs, took it off, put the proto on, did nothing else, made 3 more runs. Same with the 2017 runs, only with a 650 and Halifaxhops' distributor in it. That "is" very strange to me too that the a/f mixture changes so much!!!
Thank you!
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