What would you do?

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B3RE

B³ Racing Engines
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I'm looking for opinions on a 318 build I currently have in the shop. The application is for a 67 Fury (I know this is an A body forum, but the A engine is relevant), 3.23 gear, 727 trans with a stock converter, and is driven all over the country to historical landmarks, and to participate in parades. The car has a patriotic theme, and is invited to participate in many patriotic events. It can be seen at www.websfury.com.

Because of the extensive distances traveled, reliability, driveability, and efficiency is important. The car has a Performer manifold and 600 cfm carb, and exhaust manifolds. The engine was built previously by two other shops, but the owner was not satisfied with the results.

My questions are, since it is a near stock 318 build, would you spend the extra money to;

A. Torque plate hone the block?

B. Balance the rotating assembly?

Thoughts?
 
THat is a fairly heavy car, what does the motor have for cam, torque converter stall? Where is his ignition set at? My near stock 318 with headers liked a 670 holley more than a 600cfm. Once my timing was dialed in, more off the line torque and better passing power on the highway.
 
Probably yes to both your suggestions, but how about also ;
Sniper fuel injection? Not so much for power, or even better mileage, but better drivability in different temperatures and altitudes.
Distributorless ignition?
Overdrive?
 
Let's keep in mind that the engine is not built yet, and the carb is being re-used from the previous build. Fuel injection is a good idea, but not part of the equation here.

I'm looking specifically for answers to the two questions posted, as well as justification for those answers. Quite frankly, I'm surprised at the answers so far for such a tame build, but it is easier to spend other people's money I guess. Yellow Rose gave some justification, and that's what I'd like to see, whether yay, or nay.

Considering all the posts I see wanting to improve performance of a worn out 318 by swapping cylinder heads and cams, I'm curious why so many would want to "go the extra mile, by spending the money on "performance work" for a basically stock engine. Stick with me here. There is a method to my madness.
 
Those both should have ben done as part of any modern rebuild.

Posted while you were responding. Every engine I do gets both of those. Plate honing is so important that in the 90s I bought my own plates because the shop I wanted to use didn't have enough mopar work to buy them. Not sure why I need to justify or rationalize anything - you asked, I answered...lol.
 
So Mike, what kind of quality is your shop known for and are you willing to compromise?

For me, those are just two things, among many, that I think are basic. That plethora of basics are among the reasons I'm quitting. I'm tired of the strain.
 
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I would plate hone it to get it to seal up better way before i would balance it. Thing likely isnt going to see many rpm’s and the factory balance is fine.
Attention to detail in the machine work is always money well spent
 
Torque plates ,over balance... if a cruise mobile.
Would prefer both ,to be honest.
 
So Mike, what kind of quality is your shop known for and are you willing to compromise?

For me, those are just two things, among many, that I think are basic. That plethora of basics are among the reasons I'm quitting. I'm tired of the strain.
Jim, I think you are probably pretty confident that you already know the answer to that question, but I'm trying to get opinions and justifications to make a point later. I just want to hear from a few more people before I show my hand.
 
Those both should have ben done as part of any modern rebuild.

Posted while you were responding. Every engine I do gets both of those. Plate honing is so important that in the 90s I bought my own plates because the shop I wanted to use didn't have enough mopar work to buy them. Not sure why I need to justify or rationalize anything - you asked, I answered...lol.
I asked for justification, when perhaps a better term would have been rationale. I just want to know why people answer the way they do. It's like asking someone why they married the ugly chick. Seems obvious why they wouldn't, but maybe she is a great cook. Or, as my mother would say, she has a great personality. Lol, thanks Mom!
 
I asked for justification, when perhaps a better term would have been rationale. I just want to know why people answer the way they do. It's like asking someone why they married the ugly chick. Seems obvious why they wouldn't, but maybe she is a great cook. Or, as my mother would say, she has a great personality. Lol, thanks Mom!


I kid you not...I had a buddy (now dead) who hooked up with a gal because she made the best potato salad with bacon in it. Dead serious. Same guy also had a pimp beat his car with his own windshield wiper. Some dispute over services rendered.

As for the rest, like I said...the Chrysler balance jobs left a bunch to be desired. I've never seen a stock Chrysler shake, but just because you can't feel it don't mean it's good.

I never overbalance unless the shift speed is over 8000.

As for torque plating...I close up the gaps a bit if it's torque plated.
 
I asked for justification, when perhaps a better term would have been rationale. I just want to know why people answer the way they do. It's like asking someone why they married the ugly chick. Seems obvious why they wouldn't, but maybe she is a great cook. Or, as my mother would say, she has a great personality. Lol, thanks Mom!

Great analogy.:D

If I didn't have to keep that motor for some reason and for the reason you need to "drive it all over the country" I think I might get another motor with an international warrantee and spend the saved parts, machining and assembly expense on that and an aftermarket EFI like Fast EFI or Holly's Sniper.

I think the reasons are obvious.

If you have to keep the original motor then doing it right and completely makes sense for reliability.
 
Why was he unhappy with the two previous rebuilds?
 
Why was he unhappy with the two previous rebuilds?
The first time, he said it had less power than the stock 2 barrel 318s he's owned. So, he took it to another shop and they upped the compression. It worked a little better, but smoked and leaked oil. He still thought the stock 2 barrel 318s worked better, though. So, I'm the fixer........again.
 
Definitly balance, torque plate, if you have them why not, torque cam (mild)
touch up the ports, pockets but don't remove much material. How deep are his pockets $$, makes all the difference.
 
Two barrels feel like they have more power on a stock build because they don’t need a big carb. Four barrel carbs just dump more gas and it doesnt all get used so bogs it down. And if it smoked after they upped the compression they probably just swapped pistons and didn’t even hone the cylinder walls. Stock 318 engines where good for over 100000 miles anyday. They where reliable engines not performance engines. That’s why they made the 340
 
Absolutely both. ....

Cool site.....i love it!

Jeff
He did a great job on the car. He's a sign painter by trade, so he used those skills on the body and paint. He did pretty much everything except the engine himself.
 
The first time, he said it had less power than the stock 2 barrel 318s he's owned. So, he took it to another shop and they upped the compression. It worked a little better, but smoked and leaked oil. He still thought the stock 2 barrel 318s worked better, though. So, I'm the fixer........again.

OH, well that's different then.
Now it's up to you to fix this smoker?
Hope you are making good money on this, and his "butt dyno" don't mean squat as long as nothing is wrong with the motor and unless there was a HP goal set in advance that wasn't reached.
Speaking purely from an ex auto business owner point of view of course.:D
 
Ok, I won't have time to respond much in the morning, so I'll give the low down on this lowly 318 tonight.

The first time it was built, it was bored +.030" with a stock replacement cast piston. It was not torque plate honed and the rotating assembly was not balanced. For a stock rebuild, it should have been ok, but it lacked power.

The second shop insisted it needed more compression, so they swapped the stock replacement cast pistons for KB hypereutectic flat tops. Again, not plate honed, and not balanced (even though he said he was billed for balancing). This is a problem because the KBs don't weigh the same as a stocker, but it's not a huge difference, like a forged TRW slug. However, it smoked and leaked oil pretty badly. The customer never mentioned any vibration, but when I asked about it, he did say it droned at highway speeds.

The reason I asked the questions in my original post, is so I could make these points.

1. If you don't plate hone, you will never know how far the cylinders will distort when assembled. In this case, (are you ready for this?) number four cylinder distorted almost a full .006" at approximately the top of the second ring travel. That has to be the worst I've ever seen, although the 40% leak down on that cylinder told me something was terribly wrong. A couple others were in the 30s. I still hear guys say a small block mopar doesn't distort much because the bolts are so far from the bores. Baloney! Apparently, these two engine builders didn't feel it was important to plate hone a 318. I had to hone the block to +.040" to get it straight and round within .0002", and get yet another new set of pistons.

2. If you don't have the rotating assembly balanced, you won't know if it is out of balance, or how far. In the first build, the builder could be forgiven for making the assumption that a running stock engine, rebuilt with stock weight replacement pistons, could forego balancing. But, he would be WRONG! The second shop was derelict in his profession by using aftermarket pistons, charging for balancing (according to the customer), and not doing it.

When weight matching the connecting rods, they were 46 grams different from the heaviest to the lightest, and that was on the SMALL (pin) end. I had to replace the heaviest rod because there wasn't enough balance pad to grind away to make it light enough. The big end was only 19 grams difference from heaviest to lightest. Still, that's a far cry from a finish weight difference of 2 grams or less. Once all the components were balanced, I removed 90 grams from each end of the crankshaft to get it within spec. This is proof that even the factory components can be so far off that you can't risk not having the assembly balanced if you want it to live a long and happy life. In stock form, this engine had to be a shaky turd.

It's amazing what some shops will let go out the door, and I'm encouraged by the responses here of people who want to do things right. But wait, there's more! But, that's another engine for another thread.
 
Pic of the bore I forgot to attach.
20180223_111615.jpg
 
I agree with the balance recommendation. I would however, install the matching Edelbrock Performer camshaft. While not mind blowing by themselves, when put together in the Edelbrock power package, they perform quite well. You know yourself, it's all about matching components.
 
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