What would you do?

[AJ/FormS]

I'm a big fan of getting the leakdown down to as little as possible. So for an application like this, where the rpm is gonna be so low, say 3000 or less for most of it's life, I think if it was mine, I'd spring the cash and go one step better, and ask for the TP hone at or near, the engines intended running temperature.
_____________________
But I think if it was mine, I'd drive the cylinder pressure up some, and swap to 2.94s (or less), and install an A999, with a slightly higher stall, say 2400, then delay the secondary opening some, and install a really big Vcan.
The point of all that is to decrease the hiway running rpm, increase fuel efficiency, break-even on the starter gear but slingshot off the line with the TC yet have it locked up at hiway Rs. The delayed secondary opening to prevent detonation, so you can better optimize the low-rpm timing, with that big can. And I like TQs for this job.
I like the 2.94/A999 for it's KD into second at 55 mph for passing; about 3250rpm, and it's, 65=less than 2400 in loc-up mode; this being about peak torque with the factory cam. That's my rationale, for this combo.
Oh, and I like to run hot. But rock-steady hot.So I run a cooling system sized in excess of what I need, and let the automatic thermostatic fan-clutch/7 blade hi-attack angle fan, regulate the maximum running temp, with the Stat running the minimum. So I run 205* at the stat house. And the fan-clutch freewheels on the hiway.

 

[yellow rose]

I'm a big fan of getting the leakdown down to as little as possible. So for an application like this, where the rpm is gonna be so low, say 3000 or less for most of it's life, I think if it was mine, I'd spring the cash and go one step better, and ask for the TP hone at or near, the engines intended running temperature.
_____________________
But I think if it was mine, I'd drive the cylinder pressure up some, and swap to 2.94s (or less), and install an A999, with a slightly higher stall, say 2400, then delay the secondary opening some, and install a really big Vcan.
The point of all that is to decrease the hiway running rpm, increase fuel efficiency, break-even on the starter gear but slingshot off the line with the TC yet have it locked up at hiway Rs. The delayed secondary opening to prevent detonation, so you can better optimize the low-rpm timing, with that big can. And I like TQs for this job.
I like the 2.94/A999 for it's KD into second at 55 mph for passing; about 3250rpm, and it's, 65=less than 2400 in loc-up mode; this being about peak torque with the factory cam. That's my rationale, for this combo.
Oh, and I like to run hot. But rock-steady hot.So I run a cooling system sized in excess of what I need, and let the automatic thermostatic fan-clutch/7 blade hi-attack angle fan, regulate the maximum running temp, with the Stat running the minimum. So I run 205* at the stat house. And the fan-clutch freewheels on the hiway.

It's very expensive to hone a block at operating temps. For what Mike is doing it isn't worth it.

I guess I'm just different. Everything gets a torque plate. Everything gets balanced. I'm not even remotely surprised the big ends were off 46 grams. I was told Chrysler used mass balancing, but I've never been able to verify that. IMHO, Chrysler had the worst OE balance of the big three for sure.

Back to the topic of honing...I can say that you can go completely berserk with it. I machined up an old bell housing I had laying around and torqued it on. I've also bolted on the engine mounts. Believe it or not...they can move the cylinder around. The torque strap is a bore killer. Seen many come in with them and you can see it in the bore.

These blocks move around all over the place. Heat, pressure and other things distort everything. You can loose your mind trying to nail it. It sucks when you don't get paid for it.

 

[gregsdart]

If the guy wants more power, its going to cost. And you have to get paid, so how much power does he want to buy, is my question. My Thoughts go to EQ318b heads and the right cam and intake to make max torque at a point it will be used. (2600 to 3800?)would be where i would go. I am guessing almost stock specs or close, more lift? A honing plate is a must IMHO. One last thing. Find out if the torque converter is a stock low stall or hi stall, and consider a hi stall if it isn't.

 

[AJ/FormS]

How much is very expensive?
If that procedure got me just 1 mpg more say from 20 to 21 mpgs(Can), up here that is a $650C bucks saved at the pumps in just 50,000 miles,( about 4 to 5 years for me) at today's cost of fuel. And in the meantime, I would get to enjoy whatever extra power it might make at the lesser leakdown.
I understand what you re saying, and, I'm not trying to be argumentative, but sometimes a guy might be willing to spend a bit of money today,to get double or triple or more back over the life of the project. Or maybe just I would,lol.

BTW those were some pretty ugly LD numbers, for sure

 

[B3RE]

I already have the build designed, and parts purchased. The cam is a mild Lunati, staying with a KB flat top, and using the performer carb and manifold combo for now. Heads will be a set of 302s that the customer supplied, with a little tickle here and there. I'm only building the engine, not the car, so it will be matched to what he has. Btw, I ALWAYS hone with a torque plate, except in the rare instance I don't have one and can't beg, borrow, or steal one. I won't buy one for a 6 cyl, or other oddball engine I get on occasion. They don't pay for themselves. My Hemi plate hasn't paid for itself yet.

 

[rumblefish360]

I'm looking for opinions on a 318 build I currently have in the shop. The application is for a 67 Fury (I know this is an A body forum, but the A engine is relevant), 3.23 gear, 727 trans with a stock converter, and is driven all over the country to historical landmarks, and to participate in parades. The car has a patriotic theme, and is invited to participate in many patriotic events. It can be seen at www.websfury.com.

Because of the extensive distances traveled, reliability, driveability, and efficiency is important. The car has a Performer manifold and 600 cfm carb, and exhaust manifolds. The engine was built previously by two other shops, but the owner was not satisfied with the results.

My questions are, since it is a near stock 318 build, would you spend the extra money to;

A. Torque plate hone the block?

B. Balance the rotating assembly?

Thoughts?

Without reading a single reply, I’d start with why he wasn’t happy? What was wrong with the engine? What did he expect from it.

For the sake of a happy customer and longevity for the engine, I’d spend the time and his money if he is willing to square deck and align hire the crank etc... so it would s perfect and just keep on going from there. Just go nuts making it super speedway endurance LeMans race worthy without racing parts.

Why?

It seems that it may be possible that this guy is just a nit picking ***** and whiner that will complain about what might not just be so.

When the super quality level of work is done and it runs smoother than a babies *** and hums along flawlessly, this guy is going to get you a lot of biz due to his happiness!
He just has to be told and have it explained to him like he is a wide eyed kid in need of a step by step with reason explaining of it all.

And have him understand that this is going to cost him.

If my old ‘79, 318 can log over 500,000 miles on a crap quality factory build with such whacked out perameters and off balance rotating assembly, that should go a million!

 

[RAMM]

What would I do? This-more than 3 years ago. J.Rob

318 Wolf in Sheep's Clothing

 

[B3RE]

Without reading a single reply, I’d start with why he wasn’t happy? What was wrong with the engine? What did he expect from it.

For the sake of a happy customer and longevity for the engine, I’d spend the time and his money if he is willing to square deck and align hire the crank etc... so it would s perfect and just keep on going from there. Just go nuts making it super speedway endurance LeMans race worthy without racing parts.

Why?

It seems that it may be possible that this guy is just a nit picking ***** and whiner that will complain about what might not just be so.

When the super quality level of work is done and it runs smoother than a babies *** and hums along flawlessly, this guy is going to get you a lot of biz due to his happiness!
He just has to be told and have it explained to him like he is a wide eyed kid in need of a step by step with reason explaining of it all.

And have him understand that this is going to cost him.

If my old ‘79, 318 can log over 500,000 miles on a crap quality factory build with such whacked out perameters and off balance rotating assembly, that should go a million!

He's particular, but not unduly so. He expects quality work for the money he pays. So do I, and I'm dealing with some of the same nonsense after having a frame straightened. If it's straight, the parts should fit, but they don't, after being on the rack twice. Might be a different story if someone beats you with an empty wallet, but that didn't happen, at least not in my case. And, the customer, while concerned about cost, is not asking me to do it cheap and sacrifice quality.

Assumptions will come back to bite you, and it's obvious there were plenty of assumptions here. I've had it happen to me with a block that was cracked. It had no issues with leaks prior to taking it apart, and since I was busy, I neglected to mag it right away and started doing some work. But, I caught it before it got out the door and so, I got to eat that labor because of my haste. Lesson learned.

You might want to review the replies, because I stated that I had already done the plate hone and balance. The purpose of the thread was to stress the importance of doing those operations, even on a mild build, if you want to ensure good results. Granted, if you are building the engine yourself, and you know that it had no balance related issues, you might be fine with replacing parts with stock weights and not balancing the assembly, but I don't know that and neither did the other builders.

 

[B3RE]

What would I do? This-more than 3 years ago. J.Rob

318 Wolf in Sheep's Clothing

That's a nice build Jesse, but I wasn't asking the question because I didn't know what to do, lol. I figured you and Jim would have caught onto that right away. I was playing devils advocate to see if guys would consider it overkill for such a tame build. I didn't consider not doing it for a second.

 

[RAMM]

That's a nice build Jesse, but I wasn't asking the question because I didn't know what to do, lol. I figured you and Jim would have caught onto that right away. I was playing devils advocate to see if guys would consider it overkill for such a tame build. I didn't consider not doing it for a second.

Oh I caught what you were asking I just take these procedures as a given. When I started in this trade I was taught cylinder heads first and valvejobs-three angle valve jobs were all we ever did, I didn't even know a single angle valve job could even exist until a few years later! J.Rob

 

[AJ/FormS]

I agree
You just can't beat a well designed engine. For me, not a builder, it cost's what it costs. The paybacks come in the 100,000 miles I'm gonna drive it, and the surprisingly low ET, and the number of targets it hits. I like the way you science it out and the attention to details. I like that and so what you do is what I would like to have done to my engines,.... and already did, with a super pay-off, AND, I never say a single bad word about the designer of my combo,or how much it cost; lol.
Nice work.

 

[rumblefish360]

I'm looking for opinions on a 318 build I currently have in the shop.
You might want to review the replies,

Well, you got my opinion. You asked for it. I went right to it.

Sorry to have replied. I'll keep my big lips shut for now on.

 

[B3RE]

Well, you got my opinion. You asked for it. I went right to it.

Sorry to have replied. I'll keep my big lips shut for now on.

Had your coffee yet Rumble?

Not sure why you went defensive on me. Picking out the first line of what I originally posted, does not stay within the context of the discussion. I was specific about what I wanted opinions on, namely honing and balancing. Unfortunately, the replies started heading for left field in short order.

Posters are constantly being advised to be more specific, and then when they are, the replies are all over the place. My comment about reading some of the replies, was because you outright admitted that you didn't, and there was additional information there that would have likely had an effect on your post. Your opinions are always welcome, but being in context helps keep the thread on track. Just saying give me opinions on a 318 build, without context, is like saying give me opinions on weather.

 

[gregsdart]

I'm looking for opinions on a 318 build I currently have in the shop. The application is for a 67 Fury (I know this is an A body forum, but the A engine is relevant), 3.23 gear, 727 trans with a stock converter, and is driven all over the country to historical landmarks, and to participate in parades. The car has a patriotic theme, and is invited to participate in many patriotic events. It can be seen at www.websfury.com.

Because of the extensive distances traveled, reliability, driveability, and efficiency is important. The car has a Performer manifold and 600 cfm carb, and exhaust manifolds. The engine was built previously by two other shops, but the owner was not satisfied with the results.

My questions are, since it is a near stock 318 build, would you spend the extra money to;

A. Torque plate hone the block?

B. Balance the rotating assembly?

Thoughts?

Just how good are 318 stock blocks if not torqueplate honed? Since you have already said you would, i assume there is more than a small gain? How would ring seal be at cruise rpm. Either way?

 

[B3RE]

Just how good are 318 stock blocks if not torqueplate honed? Since you have already said you would, i assume there is more than a small gain? How would ring seal be at cruise rpm. Either way?

Well, this one was .006" out of round once the plate was bolted on, so unless it is plate honed, you just don't know how good it will be.

 

[Brian Hafliger]

Well, this one was .006" out of round once the plate was bolted on, so unless it is plate honed, you just don't know how good it will be.

Did you sonic that bore, or others? .006 is more movement (almost double) than I have ever seen....might be a very thin block negating use?

 

[B3RE]

Did you sonic that bore, or others? .006 is more movement (almost double) than I have ever seen....might be a very thin block negating use?

No, I didn't sonic the bores. It was already .030" over, so I bolted the plate on to freshen the cylinders. Once I stuck the mic in the bore, I about fell over. I've never seen one that bad before either. I honed it to .040, and it was straight and round, but ultimately decided to use another block. Too much at stake to risk more issues.

 

[66fs]

Did you sonic that bore, or others? .006 is more movement (almost double) than I have ever seen....might be a very thin block negating use?

I'd have to agree with this. I have never seen a wear pattern that looked like that. I used to build engines with virgin blocks from known good running engines. If someone "rebuilt" it I was not interested. When I got serious, I got a Sunnen hone and would hone just enough to clean up a bore, with torque plate and mains torqued to spec. Sometimes I'd run stock size pistons if the bore would clean up round and straight. Very interesting what you could see, high spots, and wear patterns. Glad you bailed on that block.

In reply to your original 2 questions: I always use torque plates on everything I build. I have plates for SBM, BBM, 2.0 Neon, and Early Chrysler Hemi. I had plates made for SBF and Desoto Hemi. I sold my SBC plate years ago as I was not interested in building them anymore. Only the SBC paid for itself, maybe the SBM also. I just will not build an engine without torque plates.

Balance is in the same category. I balance everything, pressure plates, flywheels, driveshafts, brake rotors, brake drums. Vibration drives me crazy. Imagine if you cruised down the road at 80 mph and everything was smooth as silk... No chasing crazy vibrations and the extra wear they cause.

If done right, a good engine will last forever with good maintenance. The extra machining cost over decades easily pays for itself. The side benefit is your engine starts before it makes one revolution, is more efficient and makes more power.

 

[rumblefish360]

Had your coffee yet Rumble?

Yup! Got your thinking cap on?

[/QUOTE]Not sure why you went defensive on me. [/QUOTE] Negitive
[/QUOTE]Picking out the first line of what I originally posted, does not stay within the context of the discussion. I was specific about what I wanted opinions on, namely honing and balancing. Unfortunately, the replies started heading for left field in short order.[/QUOTE]
I said sorry to that. Do you need to read me saying that again?

OK, Sorry I opened up my mouth and made my opinion known.

[/QUOTE]Posters are constantly being advised to be more specific, and then when they are, the replies are all over the place. My comment about reading some of the replies, was because you outright admitted that you didn't, and there was additional information there that would have likely had an effect on your post. Your opinions are always welcome, but being in context helps keep the thread on track. Just saying give me opinions on a 318 build, without context, is like saying give me opinions on weather.[/QUOTE]
OK, Sorry again and again and again.

Sorry I posted nonsense on your thread.
Sorry I posted nonsense on your thread.
Sorry I posted nonsense on your thread.
Sorry I posted nonsense on your thread.
Sorry I posted nonsense on your thread.

Are we good now?