Bitter taste of defeat! So much coolant in the oil pan.

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Trevor B

Trevor B

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Novato, CA
1973 Duster 318.
New cam installation and heads gone terribly wrong.

After many hours of cleaning, grinding, chasing every thread, assembling parts, started her up today - took a little fooling with the timing but she finally fired up and sounded good and smooth. Ran the engine at different speeds for about 15 minutes (in the driveway). Set idle, initial timing is advanced about 12-14 degrees. Nothing leaking out of anywhere. Shut it down and let it cool off a little. Seemed like a victory until I got ready to take her out on the road.

Checked the dipstick - milky with some froth and more on the oil cap. Worrying, I pulled the valve covers. Valve covers' insides coated with milky oil. Radiator was down a half gallon. Panicking, I pulled the oil drain plug and lots of pure, green COOLANT came pouring out!

I drained the oil pan all the way and then, to experiment, poured a gallon of water into the radiator. It came out through the oil pan! A good stream, not a dribble, not pouring.

I have made some huge mistake somewhere and would really like some advice/judgement from people who know more than me (just about everyone on this forum).

What I did and how I got here:
Pulled heads and intake manifold
Pulled water pump and timing cover
Jacked up engine, propped motor mounts on big sockets, removed centerlink and dropped oil pan.

Cleaned everything - 40 years of old oil and dirt all over everything and in the pan took some elbow grease but afterward it was nice and clean - gave the oil pan (and all pulleys, timing cover, fuel pump, and water pump) a paint job too.

Put oil pan gaskets on pan including rubber crescents at both ends (used Gasgacinch to glue paper into place, thin line of RTV under rubber end pieces - hate the stupid tabs!)

Reinstalled oil pan, torquing to spec.

Installed fresh-from-the-machine-shop 302 heads with Mr. Gasket thin head gaskets (1121g .028 compressed). Followed instructions on package: "Do not use sealant… gaskets coated with…" Didn't use sealant.
Tightened head bolts in 3 stages in correct order 30 lb/ft, 60, 85

Installed intake manifold (did the same way before: sealant around water holes, Motoseal at front and back). Tightened bolts in correct order and torqued to spec.

Installed timing cover - this was a bear with the oil pan installed. Used RTV at bottom corners and also put some in rubber gasket between timing cover and oil pan.

(Initially, I somehow managed to forget the longer bolt on the lower passenger side that goes into the water jacket - didn't figure it out untll I'd put everything back together again and then, when filling with coolant, saw it pouring out of that hole (which is right behind the water intake pipe on the water pump. Re-installed water pump after putting the bolt in).

All bolts had anti-seize or teflon-laced pipe dope if going into water jacket.

Alternator, power steering, belts, fan, radiator, carb, everything in place.

Healthy doses of oil down the valve pushrods and all over the place, Lucas Break-in Oil and Rotella 10-40 diesel to help ease the cam's break in. Then we get to today - fired her up and everything seemed great. And back to the top of the story.

The plugs look good - I checked them after the horror of coolant. The engine ran good - I would think that if the head gaskets or intake were leaking it wouldn't sound smooth.

I suspect that something went south in the timing cover/water pump installation as the water flowed straight through the water pump and into the oil pan - directly?

So…
WHERE DID I GO WRONG?!?
 
Trevor B said:
...........(Initially, I somehow managed to forget the longer bolt on the lower passenger side that goes into the water jacket - didn't figure it out untll I'd put everything back together again and then, when filling with coolant, saw it pouring out of that hole ?
Click to expand...

That right there would be enough to cause the problem
 
front of motor can leak water down into pan while changing cam...
 
RRR:
Do you think? It seemed like the water I poured in afterward came out much more clear than the coolant. It was as if it was running somehow straight through. Would that have made it as high as the intake manifold?

67Dart273:
I think there was no damage done. That happened before I started the engine. Saw the problem, drained everything, pulled the water pump, installed the bolt, re-installed everything. Engine oil on the dipstick showed normal gold color. It seems like the water/coolant that came through that bolt hole shouldn't a) been able to easily move through the gasket between the water pump and timing cover on its way and b) would in no way have been as much coolant as came out of the oil pan.

Heads were magnafluxed when I first got them: clean bill of health. I did some light porting/gasket matching. If I had punched through or weakened a wall to the point of cracking/breaking, would the engine still run right?

70aarcuda:
Engine was drained of oil, cooling system drained of coolant before I tore down the engine. Also, as I cleaned the oil pan out and re-installed it dry and clean, there was no coolant in there before bolting everything else back on.
 
I have no clue. This is the internet. Aint like I am standin there so I guessed. Just like everybody else.
 
I'm absolutely not trying to be a smart-*** here, just a person with very limited experience (but not a total idiot) trying to understand what is happening and why. I have been trying to build a complete picture of what the water passages inside the engine actually look like and haven't been able to find much in my books or on the internet.

According to my manual, the 19" radiator+water jacket+hoses total capacity = 16 quarts (4 gallons).

I don't know what the actual radiator's capacity is. But I'm going to assume that the water level in the radiator is going to be the same height as right below wherever it is leaking into the block or oil pan.

I don't know the capacity of the water jacket in the block. Is it significant?

So adding a gallon of water to a radiator (cannot see the water level in it so that means it is at least somewhat lower than the top) and then seeing it come out of the oil pan soon afterward suggests to me that the whole system is not filling up all the way to the top of the heads, to where it could leak out of the intake manifold gasket.

I say this because there is no way that 3 gallons of coolant/water came out after I'd watched the water I poured in come out the oil pan hole, when I pulled the lower hose between the radiator and water pump.

Am I missing something obvious?
 
I wasnt sayin you were bein a smartass. Didnt mean for it to come off like that. I was just sayin it is impossible for us to say what it is since we are not there for proper diagnosis. I was just throwing out a good possibility.
 
I would guess you disturbed the gasket on the timing cover when trying to deal with the oil pan being already installed. If the water passages didnt seat to block, it would pour straight into pan. If you tore gasket around block passages on timing cover it would do that. That would explain the water level in rad being even with top of cover, lower than intake passages.Is it possible you broke timing cover? Of course, this is just a guess without pics or more info.
You are going to need to flush block out so you can get as much gunk out as possible, fill it up with oil but hold on the water. Then do a comp test to see if its got head gasket issues or cracked head. That should narrow it down for you.
 
No, you should not have hurt anything......

Your detail in what has been done is good and with some effort you will find it.....

So here is how I would go about seeing if it is a Head and or Gasket problem.

Backfeed each cylinder with compressed air. I use a Compression tool hose and remove the Valve Stem. Take out your Thermostat and all plugs. 100psi will do the trick. With enough fluid for you to visually see in the Radiator you have a Head/Head Gasket problem it will show up. It is not a complicated procedure and gets this variable out of the way. If you see bubbles, movement, or anything of the sort then proceed from there.

This test has never failed me and if there is a leak it will show......

Good luck and welcome to Auto Repair 101 lol.....

JW
 
To add to the above: The water in the rad test may indicate the pump area if you have a thermostat in the system. Pouring water in the top of the rad will back into the upper hose and direct into the intake if you have no t'stat. So use that to help judge which way the water was going. The timing cover with the pan on can be hard but can certainly be done successfully, and maybe you missed locking into one of the pins, and cracked the cover..... just a SWAG. (Looks like MM thought the same.)

I'd start with the water pump, then timing cover. Keep an eye out for any obvious clear water trail when you open it up there.

Once you find it, wipe down every area and part you can reach as you button it back up, and run a couple of cycles of cheap oil in the engine for a few minutes at a time and drain it and change filters each time to cycle the water out; you have coolant everywhere inside now. And then run it for maybe 15 minutes and change it again , and keep at the frequency oil changes. Make sure your PCV is working as its' gonna be doing a lot in the near future, and change it out once the issue has subsided. Then keep an eye on the new cam and everything for a while.
 
"Bitter taste of defeat". I don't have a clue how it got on your feat or in your mouth.
Laugh it off and try again. Good luck
 
even If you drain the radiator the engine is still full of coolant...most of the bolts in the front timing chain go into water..went the timing cover is removed that is went the water will seep,,,,,

been there and has had this happen...
 
I agree with the timming cover leaking, especially if water is running out into the pan as you fill up the radiator. Did any of the water pump bolts get tight before they were all the way seated? You can break into a cylinder on some of those holes and you get water going into the cylinder and into the oil pan. It's usually toward the bottom so it not in he combustion area of the cylinder.
 
Trevor B said:
Am I missing something obvious?
Click to expand...

Don't know. I'm with Rob. All we can do, sitting here with our imaginations, is guess.

How reliable is the source from which you got those heads? Even so, one of them could have a problem.

As others have said, "the odds" are that there's a problem, somewhere, in the timing cover / water pump / etc.
 
Thank you everyone for your suggestions - I know it is impossible for anyone to diagnose this thing from a distance but I really appreciate the help. A compression test is something I can do but I'd like to try to clean out the milkshake somehow before turning the engine over. Don't know about pressurizing the cylinder but will look into it and see if my compression tester can be modified.

Any way to flush out the block without running the engine?

Please tell me if you think this is a terrible idea:
What if I temporarily plugged the timing cover bolt holes and the water holes on the front of the block (could use bolts and rags)? I could plug the intake manifold's secondary (small) hose as well. Then I could squirt water into the return hose with no thermostat and see if it leaks out through the oil pan drain. It seems to me that if nothing comes out, then the engine/heads/intake manifold are not the problem and I could rest assured that I botched the timing cover/water pump part.
 
How about regulated air pressure to the cooling system of about 10 psi and then listen to various areas with valve covers removed with a stethoscope or tube....All bolts in and tight of course.
 
I don't want to add unnecessary worry but I saw a Ford 390 once that someone used an incorrect motor mount bolt (it was too long) and fired it in with an impact--too bad it went in too deep and the bolt broke the cylinder.

I have always looked at the number one cylinder and there is a timing cover bolt hole that if one wasn't careful a too long bolt could break the cylinder. This is a worst case scenario OP, I'm sure it the t-cover. I'm amazed at how infrequent this problem really is-there are many opportunities for the waterpump to t-cover to block interface to cause this to happen. When I dyno a small mopar I am always monitoring the dipstick and it aint' for oil level. Good luck. J.Rob
 
I always thought coolant tastes sweet?


at any rate, this isn't defeat, defeat would be not putting ANY coolant in there, breaking in the motor and killing it

this is just a minor set back
 
Trevor B said:
Thank you everyone for your suggestions - I know it is impossible for anyone to diagnose this thing from a distance but I really appreciate the help. A compression test is something I can do but I'd like to try to clean out the milkshake somehow before turning the engine over. Don't know about pressurizing the cylinder but will look into it and see if my compression tester can be modified.

Any way to flush out the block without running the engine?

Please tell me if you think this is a terrible idea:
What if I temporarily plugged the timing cover bolt holes and the water holes on the front of the block (could use bolts and rags)? I could plug the intake manifold's secondary (small) hose as well. Then I could squirt water into the return hose with no thermostat and see if it leaks out through the oil pan drain. It seems to me that if nothing comes out, then the engine/heads/intake manifold are not the problem and I could rest assured that I botched the timing cover/water pump part.
Click to expand...


If you have a compression tester the hose has a valve stem in it like a tire.... easy peasy..... I suggested this because it should eliminate this variable and it a very easy procedure...

JW
 
GMachineDartGT said:
Nobody mentioned a coolant tester. Pressurize the cooling system while its cold and listen carefully.
Click to expand...

If coolant is pouring out of the pan almost as fast as its going in then this should be beyond easy to find. I'd pull the pump and cover and see what should be obvious. J.Rob
 
My first guess was a timing cover gasket until I read new heads.

Have the heads been milled?
This throws off the angle on the intake, good chance of a leak.
 
compare coolant passages in head to the ones in block, may need a different head gskt.
And your intake gskts may be wrong if using 4v intake on 2v heads.
Don't be too concerned with getting all the "milkshake" cleaned out. Your first oil change will clean out most of it. Use a cheaper oil for the first one!
Good Luck!
 
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