Starter stays engaged ONLY in park???

[67Dart273]

Well remember what we talked about. Get in on the key connector and check the yellow there see if it comes "hot" in start. If it does it might be in the bulkhead. Double check that you are in the BJ (E body) section and not the VL section (valiant/ Dart) so far as the bulkhead.

This is strange, the diagram I posted is page 8-209 which is supposed to be B-J (E body) but the diagrams at the start of the diagram section are different more like the one you showed

 

[Righty Tighty]

Okay, I'll do that. I'm getting distracted by trying to make sure the wiring is correct and not even checking what I'm supposed to be checking. I did make sure I'm looking in the B-J section, thanks for double checking.

I'm back on duty tomorrow and drill again Wednesday, so it'll be a bit before I can get back to it.

 

[Righty Tighty]

This is strange, the diagram I posted is page 8-209 which is supposed to be B-J (E body) but the diagrams at the start of the diagram section are different more like the one you showed

I found that diagram on page 8-169.

 

[67Dart273]

Looks like cavity 9 is wire P-5-20 black, the brake warning switch

 

[Righty Tighty]

I don't know why my book says windshield washer. Either way, is there a reason for either to be connected to the battery post of the relay?

 

[67Dart273]

Heh, NO. I realize that those diagrams suck. Have you looked at the two-page ones at MyMopar? I always tell guys the same thing.......they are not as detailed,........and options are often missing.........but they can be easier to follow

See if this works

 

[Righty Tighty]

I haven’t had a chance to check them, it’s been a very busy couple days. Perhaps this evening if I can ever get settled in.

 

[Righty Tighty]

Heh, NO. I realize that those diagrams suck. Have you looked at the two-page ones at MyMopar? I always tell guys the same thing.......they are not as detailed,........and options are often missing.........but they can be easier to follow

See if this works

View attachment 1715840073

View attachment 1715840076



View attachment 1715840081

View attachment 1715840080

That's so much easier to follow, thanks. I've been trying to learn what all the codes mean, and since there's no index in the book telling you what CE 40 or all the others mean, it's slow going.

 

[67Dart273]

That's so much easier to follow, thanks. I've been trying to learn what all the codes mean, and since there's no index in the book telling you what CE 40 or all the others mean, it's slow going.

Yeh there IS. Keep going past the diagrams, where I got the one I posted. Hang on..........

You posted this earlier, good example.......

Go on past the diagrams to those charts, ............CE-2 is the bulkhead connector I posted, I cropped that part out

CE-5 is the starter relay

CE40 is your seat belt interlock box, I posted that connector

CE means "Connector, Engine bay"
CB means "Connector, Body
CI means "Connector, Instrument"

They are all diagrammed there in those pages on past the diagrams, about 200 or so

Example pag 8-209 has the bulkhead connector and starter relay both

 

[67Dart273]

I have to get to bed, tomorrow and the next are gonna be long early days!!

 

[Righty Tighty]

Well, I'm trying VERY hard not to become frustrated, but I'm wanting to pull my hair out. I checked continuity of the yellow wire at the steering column, and it's got 0 ohms to the brown wire with the key turned, and 26 ohms to the red battery wire. No continuity to any of the other wires. I tried connecting the yellow wire to the ignition terminal and the red battery wire to the large battery post of the relay, no start. The only way the engine will start is with the battery wire connected to the ignition terminal.

Engine to chassis ground is good, but I'll double check my work.

NOW the alternator isn't charging the battery with the engine running. The battery is around 11.9 volts at idle and slowly dropping, the alternator jumps around between 13-16 volts. The ammeter at the cluster does not work, so I have no reading there. Took it around the block the other day and the engine ran GREAT!!! Best it has ever run since I bought it -- no misfires, revved up nice and high when I wanted it to. Yesterday, it misfired so badly I couldn't go faster than 20 mph. I'm wondering what changed, because I certainly didn't change anything.

I know it's not always the wisest thing to just throw parts at a problem, but it's tempting to to just rip out ALL of the wiring and start from scratch.

I'm thinking I might need to take a day off from the 'Cuda, because it's starting to feel like I have absolutely no idea what I'm doing here.

 

[George Jets]

Just like this. Small Block, 727 setup on a truck.

 

[67Dart273]

You probably need to find some local help. I don't mean a shop necessarily. Isn't there another A bodies member in your area? Feel free to give me a buzz

Here are the main points I "imagine..........." in no special order

1...Possible wiring hacks by others. Especially since the old seat belt interlock seems to not "follow" someone may have hacked that. Who knows maybe they only twisted the wires and taped them into the harness, and now they are not making connection
2...Problems with the bulkhead connector. This is age old on these cars. Only way to deal with it is learn to unclip the connector sections and pull them apart and inspect the terminals. You CAN buy these terminals.
3...Failure in the ignition switch. It sounds like "maybe" you need to modify your testing methods. I RARELY use ohm/ continuity tests, because a "poor" but "somewhat" connection will often "pass" a continuity test but fail under operational load. The answer is to test under load. Make voltage tests UNDER load instead of continuity

For example confirm or fix a correct path for the start wire. The path--after eliminating the seat belt interlock is........from the key switch connector, through the bulkhead, and out on the engine side to the start relay

So start at the key. Learn to "jerry" rig if needed--clip your meter/ light into the start wire terminal at the key switch connector, and see if "it's there" in start. If so......

Go out to the engine bay side of the yellow wire and probe that. If it's not there then there's only one place---within the bulkhead connector

NEVER assume a terminal or switch or crimp splice is "good."

 

[67Dart273]

I still think there is some sort of tie-in here from the brown to the yellow. When the key is off or in run, there should be no continuity between the two. The reason you are seeing continuity "in start" is that all the switch contacts are interconnected........the red, the yellow, and brown are all supposed to be "one" in start.
IF IF this is so, there are only a couple of possibilities...........

Either someone has hacked the wiring, or there was a melt/ short that created a cross connect, or........

The contacts in the ignition switch are 'swimming around' in there. THAT you can likely find with continuity. Separate the ignition switch connector. In "off", "run", or "acc" there should be no continuity of the brown to anything or to the yellow to anything.

The ONLY position the brown and yellow should have continuity is in "start" and brown/ yellow/ red should all show continuity

 

[Righty Tighty]

You probably need to find some local help. I don't mean a shop necessarily. Isn't there another A bodies member in your area? Feel free to give me a buzz

Here are the main points I "imagine..........." in no special order

1...Possible wiring hacks by others. Especially since the old seat belt interlock seems to not "follow" someone may have hacked that. Who knows maybe they only twisted the wires and taped them into the harness, and now they are not making connection
2...Problems with the bulkhead connector. This is age old on these cars. Only way to deal with it is learn to unclip the connector sections and pull them apart and inspect the terminals. You CAN buy these terminals.
3...Failure in the ignition switch. It sounds like "maybe" you need to modify your testing methods. I RARELY use ohm/ continuity tests, because a "poor" but "somewhat" connection will often "pass" a continuity test but fail under operational load. The answer is to test under load. Make voltage tests UNDER load instead of continuity

For example confirm or fix a correct path for the start wire. The path--after eliminating the seat belt interlock is........from the key switch connector, through the bulkhead, and out on the engine side to the start relay

So start at the key. Learn to "jerry" rig if needed--clip your meter/ light into the start wire terminal at the key switch connector, and see if "it's there" in start. If so......

Go out to the engine bay side of the yellow wire and probe that. If it's not there then there's only one place---within the bulkhead connector

NEVER assume a terminal or switch or crimp splice is "good."

I think you're right, some local help would be, well...helpful. Lol. Maybe I'll get my Pops over here and see what he has to say. He's pretty good with electrical.

Thanks, I'm going to get out there and have another look. The good news is that I was able to tune the engine so it will idle and I can do these tests under load.

 

[Righty Tighty]

You probably need to find some local help. I don't mean a shop necessarily. Isn't there another A bodies member in your area? Feel free to give me a buzz

Here are the main points I "imagine..........." in no special order

1...Possible wiring hacks by others. Especially since the old seat belt interlock seems to not "follow" someone may have hacked that. Who knows maybe they only twisted the wires and taped them into the harness, and now they are not making connection
2...Problems with the bulkhead connector. This is age old on these cars. Only way to deal with it is learn to unclip the connector sections and pull them apart and inspect the terminals. You CAN buy these terminals.
3...Failure in the ignition switch. It sounds like "maybe" you need to modify your testing methods. I RARELY use ohm/ continuity tests, because a "poor" but "somewhat" connection will often "pass" a continuity test but fail under operational load. The answer is to test under load. Make voltage tests UNDER load instead of continuity

For example confirm or fix a correct path for the start wire. The path--after eliminating the seat belt interlock is........from the key switch connector, through the bulkhead, and out on the engine side to the start relay

So start at the key. Learn to "jerry" rig if needed--clip your meter/ light into the start wire terminal at the key switch connector, and see if "it's there" in start. If so......

Go out to the engine bay side of the yellow wire and probe that. If it's not there then there's only one place---within the bulkhead connector

NEVER assume a terminal or switch or crimp splice is "good."

I probably should've called you earlier. I don't understand what you mean by clipping the meter into the key switch connector. Do you mean one probe to the terminal and the other to ground?

I didn't get much done today, lots of staring. What I did find was the reason the yellow start wire wouldn't work. The terminal has been removed from the bulkhead connector that corresponds to the seatbelt interlock switch. That's the yellow wire I was trying to connect to the relay. Also, I can't tell what is on the alternator terminal, but it almost looks charred like it shorted at one point. I'm going to buy a new bulkhead connector.

 

[67Dart273]

You don't necessarily have to "buy" one you can buy the terminals and rework them. They are Packard 56/ 58 but you want to be careful, look at them carefully and get the right ones. there's a little release tab, they pull right out. I just use a very small "jewelers" screwdriver and needle nose to get them apart. Lots of threads on this

Yeh sounds like progress.

 

[Mattax]

Also, I can't tell what is on the alternator terminal, but it almost looks charred like it shorted at one point. I'm going to buy a new bulkhead connector.

Yes that is the cavity for the R6 line - altehrnator output.
Yes its been heat damaged and the locking tab is no longer holding the female recepticle in place.

When the multiconnect is snapped into place, its likely the female backs out even more. Result is the metal terminals in that cavity only lightly touch each other. What you may be able to do it push the female from the inside. Its not easy to do because you are pushing on something small that and I think on some of the E bodies the fusebox may be in the way.
There are other work arounds depending on how original you want to preserve things.

This poor connection may explain why the ammeter wasn't reading right.
This is the electical flow for normal starting (non-interlock model).

Immediately after start, it should be recharging for a minute more.

But if the R6 feed is not connected well, then the engine is going to run on battery power.


As far as the seatbelt interlock goes, the question remains what was done to return it to normal.
The yellow with tracer was originally S1, and the plain yellow S2B.
S1 and S2 originally joined together at the relay.

I think what 67Dart273 was trying to get you to do is trace on what connects back to the key switch now.

I don't which S1 or S2 wire will lead directly back to the key switch. But that's what should be connecting to the relay post where there is a big red wire now.

From your other photo, the big red wire is A1C. That's supposed to be connected to the stud terminal! So here's another reason the ammeter isn't working correctly. Apparently its not connected to the battery.

I don't know what is going on with the washer wire, someone may have been using it as an alternate route to the key switch.
Some wiper switches had an extra terminal for supplying power when the key is in run or accessory. I have no idea if yours does, just a possibility. If so, they could back feed through it.

 

[Mattax]

Also check the diagrams and then your wires for the NSS connection.
My understanding is that S4 went to the interlock box before going to the safety switch.
So those two section of the wire now should be spliced together.

 

[Righty Tighty]

Yes that is the cavity for the R6 line - altehrnator output.
Yes its been heat damaged and the locking tab is no longer holding the female recepticle in place.

That might explain why the alternator isn't charging the battery.

some of the E bodies the fusebox may be in the way.

You're right, but I've been able to scoot the fuse box aside pretty easily.

But if the R6 feed is not connected well, then the engine is going to run on battery power.

That explains it. I couldn't figure out why the alternator wasn't charging. I accidentally hooked the alternator up backwards initially, and I think I fried the diodes. Next time around, still no charge. I think this is why.

From your other photo, the big red wire is A1C. That's supposed to be connected to the stud terminal! So here's another reason the ammeter isn't working correctly. Apparently its not connected to the battery.

Yeah, I thought so, too! I tried connecting it to the battery stud, but no dice. Found out it's because the yellow starter wire had nothing to connect to at the bulkhead.

I start my work week tomorrow, so it'll be off and on that I can get out to work on it.

 

[Bewy]

Righty,
I gave you a very SIMPLE test in post #36 to narrow down the cause. I suspect your electrical knowledge is limited [ no disrespect intended ]. So all the electrical circuits/diagrams being given to you by well meaning people trying to help is just bamboozling you.

Do the post 36 test, it will tell you something. If you have poor hearing, have somebody stand outside the car.

 

[Mattax]

That explains it. I couldn't figure out why the alternator wasn't charging. I accidentally hooked the alternator up backwards initially, and I think I fried the diodes. Next time around, still no charge. I think this is why.

Well maybe it explains. Right now its a guess.
Not sure what you mean be hooking up the alternator backwards. If you're talking about the field connections, they can be reversed with no harm.
As far as charging goes, lets break this down so you we can figure out what is happening.
Sometimes we say an alternator "is charging" when we mean it is supplying power to the system. Other times when we say alternator charging we actually mean that the battery is getting recharged. I'm not sure what you have observed, but I'm guessing maybe the battery is run down?
With the damaged/poor connection in the output wire, its possible that the alternator is supplying power. Just that not much was flowing through. To know if the alternator is working measure its output voltage when the engine is running.

Yeah, I thought so, too! I tried connecting it to the battery stud, but no dice. Found out it's because the yellow starter wire had nothing to connect to at the bulkhead.

You are on the right path connecting the stud on the relay to the red wire A1C.
It should actually be connected with a 16 ga fusible link. You can buy a generic one at most part stores and splice it in. It may be orange rather than blue but will work. Later you can order a correct one if this is a restoration.

What to do with the wire going from the relay to cavity 19? I'd remove it.
If possible figure out where the wire in number 19 cavity really goes on the cabin side.
My guesses are a) wiper switch b)washer switch c) fuse box 'hot' feed.
If its washer switch, then that might have been an ad hoc push button start. LOL
(and yes it will work if the key is in run or accessory, but shouldnt with key in start)

With the battery feed fixed, use powered light or an ohmeter to check for shorts to ground. If none , good. You can then test wires to see what is connected with key off, then in run, and then in start.

As far as starting, if you are in a jam,the yellow wire is not needed. All that is needed is a jumper wire to briefly connect power to that relay terminal.
But the fix is to find the S1 or S2 wire from the key switch and connect it to the bulkhead terminal and then onto the starter relay.

Don't forget to put the battery on a charger.

Didn't mean to interject so much. 67Dart273 has a handle on this stuff, esp. the seatbelt thing. Just happened to notice those wires incorrectly attached at the relay.

 

[Righty Tighty]

Righty,
I gave you a very SIMPLE test in post #36 to narrow down the cause. I suspect your electrical knowledge is limited [ no disrespect intended ]. So all the electrical circuits/diagrams being given to you by well meaning people trying to help is just bamboozling you.

Do the post 36 test, it will tell you something. If you have poor hearing, have somebody stand outside the car.

I did perform that test, the starter clicked. I'm confident that the problem isn't in the starter, rather something amiss in the wiring keeping the solenoid engaged. And no offense taken, I think I've made it obvious that I'm no expert regarding automotive electrical. I understand the diagrams for the most part, the problem is that the wiring in my car doesn't match the diagrams...haha. I have an engine harness on the way, and shortly after a forward headlight harness. So that should take care of a) the old and broken wires and b) missing wires/weird splices.

Well maybe it explains. Right now its a guess.
Not sure what you mean be hooking up the alternator backwards. If you're talking about the field connections, they can be reversed with no harm.
As far as charging goes, lets break this down so you we can figure out what is happening.
Sometimes we say an alternator "is charging" when we mean it is supplying power to the system. Other times when we say alternator charging we actually mean that the battery is getting recharged. I'm not sure what you have observed, but I'm guessing maybe the battery is run down?
With the damaged/poor connection in the output wire, its possible that the alternator is supplying power. Just that not much was flowing through. To know if the alternator is working measure its output voltage when the engine is running.



You are on the right path connecting the stud on the relay to the red wire A1C.
It should actually be connected with a 16 ga fusible link. You can buy a generic one at most part stores and splice it in. It may be orange rather than blue but will work. Later you can order a correct one if this is a restoration.

What to do with the wire going from the relay to cavity 19? I'd remove it.
If possible figure out where the wire in number 19 cavity really goes on the cabin side.
My guesses are a) wiper switch b)washer switch c) fuse box 'hot' feed.
If its washer switch, then that might have been an ad hoc push button start. LOL
(and yes it will work if the key is in run or accessory, but shouldnt with key in start)

With the battery feed fixed, use powered light or an ohmeter to check for shorts to ground. If none , good. You can then test wires to see what is connected with key off, then in run, and then in start.

As far as starting, if you are in a jam,the yellow wire is not needed. All that is needed is a jumper wire to briefly connect power to that relay terminal.
But the fix is to find the S1 or S2 wire from the key switch and connect it to the bulkhead terminal and then onto the starter relay.

Don't forget to put the battery on a charger.

Didn't mean to interject so much. 67Dart273 has a handle on this stuff, esp. the seatbelt thing. Just happened to notice those wires incorrectly attached at the relay.

I can't speak for 67Dart273, but I'm pretty sure he won't take offense to any interjections.

Regarding the alternator, yes, that's what I meant by hooking it up backwards. I thought the field wires needed to be at specific terminals or else the diodes would fry up. I guess I was wrong about that. When I put my meter to the battery with the car running, I get ~11.9. The reading at the alternator bounces between 13 and 16 volts. So basically what I meant was that the battery doesn't seem to be getting any voltage from the alternator.

Lots of good advice from everyone, thanks. It'll be a day or two before I can get back at it.

 

[Mattax]

I thought the field wires needed to be at specific terminals or else the diodes would fry up.

The diodes are in the output circuit. They are not connected to the field circuit. The field magneticly induces electrons in the output circuit to try to move. See here for
pictures of how the field terminals connect to the rotor.

When I put my meter to the battery with the car running, I get ~11.9. The reading at the alternator bounces between 13 and 16 volts. So basically what I meant was that the battery doesn't seem to be getting any voltage from the alternator.

Thanks for clarifying!
So the alternator is more or less working. The bouncing voltage could be because of poor connection(s) between the output and the regulator. The regulator only knows what voltage it sees. If it sees low voltage because of resistance in the line, then it responds as if the alternator was producing at lower voltage than it actually is.

Yes the 11.6 V at the battery versus 13 to 16 at the alternator while running reveals there is either no connection or very high resistance between the two.
Put the battery on a charger. Buy a charger if you have to. Charging Battery with Alternator - Warning

Let's brush up a little on 'lectricty.
Voltage is like pressure in a water or air system. If there is an air tank with 100 psi showing on the gage, how much air is flowing?
Answer: We don't know. We only know there is potential to supply air.
Connecting a hose from that tank to a tire, air flows from the higher pressure tank to the lower pressure in the tire.
The tire doesn't instantly jump to 100 psi because there are resistances in the line and the connections - especially the tire's schreader valve.
Amperes are a measurement of flow. Just like cfm or gallons per minute is a measurement of flow.
Power comes from the combination of the pressure and flow.


There must be a good low resistance path from both Alternator and the Battery to the main splice.
That's the basis for everything else to work.

 

[Righty Tighty]

That’s great info, thanks. I do have a charger and I’ve been using it since this alternator issue surfaced. Judging by the condition of all of the underhood wiring, I’m not surprised there are problems.