I'm definitely worried about shredding the gear. So if pulling the NSS plug stopped it, maybe the problem is in the NSS or harness? I assume you've tried those though.
Starter stays engaged ONLY in park???
- Thread starter Righty Tighty
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67Dart273
Well-Known Member
I cannot tell. Itemize the actual wire colors "without the paint" LOL
DO you have a factory wiring diagram?
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
When I was talking about checking voltage "ignition" I was talking about the ignition switch. There's a big long white connector coming out of the steering column. You may want to remove the small trim cover piece directly below the column. The NSS cannot be the problem. Some crossed/ melted/ welded conductors in the harness could be the problem.
The danger here is that someone has INCORRECTLY modified the harness to "fix" some problem, and has somehow caused other problems.
Okay, gotcha. I know the connector you're referring to. My comment about the NSS was in reference to jos51700's situation.
Here are the wires labeled. Whoever painted the damn car obviously didn't pay any attention to detail at all.
Funny you ask about the diagram, my service manuals just arrived in the mail this afternoon!! So, yes. That'll be my homework for tonight. I really appreciate the help, I didn't grow up working on cars so a lot of the basic stuff is new to me.
Here are the wires labeled. Whoever painted the damn car obviously didn't pay any attention to detail at all.
Funny you ask about the diagram, my service manuals just arrived in the mail this afternoon!! So, yes. That'll be my homework for tonight. I really appreciate the help, I didn't grow up working on cars so a lot of the basic stuff is new to me.
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
OK when you get into the wiring diagrams, go on past them and you'll find charts there for the various connectors and approximate location. On the diagrams, there are big oval figures, with references inside to tell you what connector. EG "CE-2" is "Connector, Engine no2 and those are referenced on the diagram to the diagram in the connector chart.
"CI-2" is "Connector, Instrument" meaning a connector in the instrument panel group, and so on.
SOME wiring problems--because of the way the new style ones are drawn, you will also want to go to MyMopar and download the two-page aftermarket diagrams and if possible, print them out. These are NOT as complete and do not show all detail, but they can be easier 'to follow."
These......
https://www.mymopar.com/downloads/wiringdiagrams/1974Wiring.zip
For some reason he has grouped these up and "zipped" them. You will have to expand them and pick the two you want.
https://www.mymopar.com/downloads/wiringdiagrams/1974Wiring.zip
"CI-2" is "Connector, Instrument" meaning a connector in the instrument panel group, and so on.
SOME wiring problems--because of the way the new style ones are drawn, you will also want to go to MyMopar and download the two-page aftermarket diagrams and if possible, print them out. These are NOT as complete and do not show all detail, but they can be easier 'to follow."
These......
https://www.mymopar.com/downloads/wiringdiagrams/1974Wiring.zip
For some reason he has grouped these up and "zipped" them. You will have to expand them and pick the two you want.
https://www.mymopar.com/downloads/wiringdiagrams/1974Wiring.zip
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
The other connector appears to be the seat belt interlock connector. Normally, the two yellows there are what you would jumper together to bypass the box
When you get your fancy new manual, these charts are on page "around" 8-209
When you get your fancy new manual, these charts are on page "around" 8-209
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
It appears that one of the yellows at the start relay connector feeds back in and hooks into the seat belt interlock box inside the car. "For now" I would disconnect that. I have never seen one in an E body, some of them are blue plastic and fairly large. Try disconnecting it and see if it affects the problem. Someone may have "monkeyed" with the wiring to get around the reset box under the hood
Well I guess I didn't look hard enough on MyMopar. Thanks for finding those. The diagram in the manual I got is a bit different, a little harder to read.
I still don't understand why this problem would surface now. I didn't change anything electrically, only disconnected and reconnected.
I still don't understand why this problem would surface now. I didn't change anything electrically, only disconnected and reconnected.
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
Try not to get too bogged down. The "big" possibilities as I see them (in no order of probability)
1...Ignition switch itself has taken a swim. As I've mentioned earlier, the contacts can move around in there and cause problems
2....Someone modified/ spliced something, did a poor job, and now that connection has wandered over and contacted something else
3....Welded, melted wiring cross connected in the harness.
Find out if the start wire is staying live, then try to eliminate what it could be. Once you get it "live" (the starter) you can disable the starter relay by pulling loose the neutral safety wire from the relay. Now try not to bump the IGN switch. I would carefully separate the switch connector at the column, then check continuity between the power "in' wire and the start wire "out" and see if they are connected. If they are--you have a bad switch. From page 8-213:
IN is J1-12R (RED) and your start is the top one, S2-12Y yellow. If the switch is "good" and the problem is "active" there should be no continuity between the red and yellow. Since this is an intermittent, you may have to re-check it several times to satisfy. --Hook it up, verify the problem, disable starter, disconnect switch, and check for continuity. If you "catch" it showing continuity you might as well get busy looking for a switch.
1...Ignition switch itself has taken a swim. As I've mentioned earlier, the contacts can move around in there and cause problems
2....Someone modified/ spliced something, did a poor job, and now that connection has wandered over and contacted something else
3....Welded, melted wiring cross connected in the harness.
Find out if the start wire is staying live, then try to eliminate what it could be. Once you get it "live" (the starter) you can disable the starter relay by pulling loose the neutral safety wire from the relay. Now try not to bump the IGN switch. I would carefully separate the switch connector at the column, then check continuity between the power "in' wire and the start wire "out" and see if they are connected. If they are--you have a bad switch. From page 8-213:
IN is J1-12R (RED) and your start is the top one, S2-12Y yellow. If the switch is "good" and the problem is "active" there should be no continuity between the red and yellow. Since this is an intermittent, you may have to re-check it several times to satisfy. --Hook it up, verify the problem, disable starter, disconnect switch, and check for continuity. If you "catch" it showing continuity you might as well get busy looking for a switch.
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This is a very simple test that will narrow down the suspects.
- remove the large bat cable from the starter.
- attempt to crank the engine. You should hear the click from the starter sol.
- release the key.
If you do NOT hear a click, then something in P or N is keeping the starter energised.
If you DO hear a click, then the starter is working as it should & you have mechanical interference.
- remove the large bat cable from the starter.
- attempt to crank the engine. You should hear the click from the starter sol.
- release the key.
If you do NOT hear a click, then something in P or N is keeping the starter energised.
If you DO hear a click, then the starter is working as it should & you have mechanical interference.
@67Dart273 if the starter is self engaging only when the NSS is switched to ground, I. E. neutral and park, wouldn't that say the starter relay is always receiving 12v to the "L" terminal so tracing that back to the key switch should find the source.
I really appreciate the help so far, and we'll figure it out!!
All three are VERY possible.
Once again, forgive the stupid question... when you say "live" do you just mean with the key in run?
I'll try the continuity test. @Tooljunkie would be happy to know that I spent a good bit of time repairing bad sections of wire yesterday. It's no substitute for new harnesses, but they're not cheap.
Thanks, Bewy! That's a very simple test that I will try as well.
I tested the terminals at the relay yesterday, and with the key in "RUN," the only one that had power was the large battery post. Also, I don't know if I mentioned this earlier or if it even matters, the problem is only happening while the engine is running. If I crank the engine and it doesn't start, the starter stops as it should.
Glad you are working at it. Just for gits and shiggles, check for proper ground between body and engine. My reasoning is, engine off, not enough voltage to cause solenoid to engage. With engine running, voltage goes way up and starter engages. Key on and test for volts between engine and body.
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
That might well be a clue. HERE is what might be happening
As I've explained earlier, (originally) there are TWO start circuits that are active when the key is twisted to "start." THESE ARE SEPARATE CIRCUITS and are separate contacts at the ignition switch.
1....The yellow start circuit. This is hot "in start" and ONLY GOES one place. Feeds out through the bulkhead, through the seat belt interlock reset box, and to the START RELAY
2...The brown "bypass" circuit. This feeds full battery power to the ignition system/ coil for starting. Just like start, it is hot ONLY when key is twisted to start
WHAT MIGHT HAVE happened. "Let's say" the seat belt interlock tripped or was removed and the previous owner did not understand these circuits. WHAT WE NOW HAVE is the yellow start wire power CAN NOT get to the start relay.
MAYBE he/she found and spliced into the brown bypass circuit and connected that to the start relay. THIS INTERCONNECTS the two circuits and HERE is how this might work
When the engine is not running, the battery is somewhat "low" around 12V When you crank the engine this goes "lower." But when the engine starts and runs, the system voltage goes
uity between those two points, that is the yellow start wire and the brown ballast terminal wire. it should be OPEN, NO continuity.
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
I got screwed up in the edit. Try this:
Double check, with everything connected normally. Engine stopped. Put shifter in anything except park or neutral Put key in "run."
Probe ballast terminals and confirm: One end of ballast should show close to 12V and other end should show quite low, perhaps 6-8V
Now probe the yellow wire at the relay and see if there is any reading there for voltage.
Double check, with everything connected normally. Engine stopped. Put shifter in anything except park or neutral Put key in "run."
Probe ballast terminals and confirm: One end of ballast should show close to 12V and other end should show quite low, perhaps 6-8V
Now probe the yellow wire at the relay and see if there is any reading there for voltage.
I don't have a yellow wire going to the relay, are you referring to the wire going to the ignition terminal? I'll post a picture soon.
Disregard, I see you called it the start circuit earlier.
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
Prediction, "we'll see". .. .. . . .
Sounds like previous owner spliced into the coil+ line (coil bypass IGN2) to get start function and now it's backfeeding.........the yellow start circuit was abandoned
Sounds like previous owner spliced into the coil+ line (coil bypass IGN2) to get start function and now it's backfeeding.........the yellow start circuit was abandoned
Not yet. What I did do was swap in a new harness just because I had it and figure it would make troubleshooting a little easier. That way I’m not dealing with broken/poor connections. I was on duty yesterday and have drill today for a few hours, but likely will try to have a look at the ignition switch continuity later today.
One thing I haven’t mentioned that may be a clue or contributor to a faulty switch is that since I bought the car, the key tumbler sometimes “sticks” or locks up, and I have to jiggle the key/steering wheel simultaneously to get it to unlock.
I also took a look at the starter pinion and converter, and noticed shiny wear on the outside of the converter teeth. See picture.
One thing I haven’t mentioned that may be a clue or contributor to a faulty switch is that since I bought the car, the key tumbler sometimes “sticks” or locks up, and I have to jiggle the key/steering wheel simultaneously to get it to unlock.
I also took a look at the starter pinion and converter, and noticed shiny wear on the outside of the converter teeth. See picture.
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
Considering what is going on, I'd call that "normal." They are always going to have some wear like that. I would "get on" checking out that ignition switch. Just use your head and think it out. The path for the yellow when eliminating the seat belt interlock is simple. The yellow from the key goes through the bulkhead and to the one flag terminal on the start relay
Okay, while trying to sort out what wires go where before checking the ignition switch at the connector, I found some confusing results. I'm wondering if anyone can help determine what is/isn't correct here. I'm thinking the wire currently connected to the start terminal is incorrect and should go to the battery terminal on the relay? And the yellow wire as suggested earlier should go to start. And why is the wire from the windshield washer going to the battery post on the relay?
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
Yeh but I told you about the yellow wire thing the other day. You are going to have to get it "re connected' to the key "start" wire. Remember, that originally went through the seat belt reset box on the fenderwell
I'll have to look the other up. The bulkhead connectors can be tricky, depending on which way they are pictured, can fool you with a "mirror image"
I'll have to look the other up. The bulkhead connectors can be tricky, depending on which way they are pictured, can fool you with a "mirror image"
The only reason I didn't connect the yellow wire right away was because I couldn't get it to energize with the key turned. I'll connect it anyway. I'm also confused as to why the engine won't start with the remote starter -- only with the key.
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