DOES THE HDK SUSPENSION K-MEMBER HANDLE BETTER THAN A T-BAR SUSPENSION?

[NC Engine Builder]

A well set up car does help but can you explain to me how one (professional race car driver ) loves a set-up and while another of the same caliper gets in the car only to remark...."I don't how you drive that thing?

and how about two cars built side by side to be identical and one is a rocket and the other a turd?.....it happens more than you think.

Your conflating "feel" with ultimate performance. And that's a very big deal! 99% of your customers, or anyone else, lack the ability to actually USE the total performance capibility of the car. Myself included

 

[NC Engine Builder]

I have several mount variables that drop the engine anywhere from 1/2" to 3/4" Fact is, almost impossible to accomplish with the OEM steering components to contend with. Maybe in your world that does not count as lowering the COG, but in mine it not only lowers the COG, but affords needed tunnel clearance for larger transmissions.

weight reduction calculations were apples to apples......HDK manual steer / no sway bar / no brakes w/ coil over package vs OEM manual steer/ no sway / no brakes w/ torsion bar. As fair a comparison I could make.....29.8 lbs if memory serves. All the other BS you threw out there could be done on either set up.

Now your just posting nonsense. You want me to go take a picture of one of my oval track oil pans to show you the U shaped tunnel I fabricated into it to lower the engine without hitting? What's "almost impossible" by your definition is just everyday fab work on racecars.

 

[HemiDenny]

Which is why putting the same guy in both cars is the better test. Like Tire Rack did with the Mopar Taxi and a 3 series BMW.



But it's a straw man answer, in my book.the

straw man?????

did you bother watching the video......

the remark comparing the 2 cars (6:15) was.....no replacement for displacement. He was NOT comparing suspensions by any means. The Mopar was faster because it has a big (long arm / stroker) motor

 

[HemiDenny]

Now your just posting nonsense. You want me to go take a picture of one of my oval track oil pans to show you the U shaped tunnel I fabricated into it to lower the engine without hitting? What's "almost impossible" by your definition is just everyday fab work on racecars.

exactly.....not out of the box is it?

 

[NC Engine Builder]

exactly.....not out of the box is it?

Out of what box? You said its "nearly impossible" and that's false. And actually, Kevco will build any oil pan you want, right to your drawing. And yeah, it comes in a box.

 

[TT5.9mag]

Here’s the real deal Holyfield right here. This is how new parts should come to market.

Claim (faster)
Claim (better)
Claim (lighter)
Claim (stronger)
Following closely by
Data (faster)
Data (better)
Data (lighter)
Data (stronger)

When supporting data does not follow claim the flags go up. And while, as a business owner I understand companies not posting proprietary property it keeps anyone from believing such claims. Most of the time customers will willingly hand out the information after the purchase due to being overly happy or overly disappointed with the product. We’ve seen none of that in this case likely due to how hard it is to plot suspension geometry but up until this point all of the “evidence” could be considered subjective.

 

[HemiDenny]

If nothing else, the new tubular stuff looks cool.
If that is all you care about, feel free to make the change.

a lot have, I would say by far, the most common reason is.....fitting a large engine in a small engine bay. As I stated a few rants back, I wanted to prove that

Out of what box? You said its "nearly impossible" and that's false. And actually, Kevco will build any oil pan you want, right to your drawing. And yeah, it comes in a box.

oil pan to ground clearance is just a small issue..... how do you get by the steering box with the exhaust and other steering components to lower the engine....I'll wait

 

[NC Engine Builder]

straw man?????

did you bother watching the video......

the remark comparing the 2 cars (6:15) was.....no replacement for displacement. He was NOT comparing suspensions by any means. The Mopar was faster because it has a big (long arm / stroker) motor

You are really hardheaded. So the taxi is faster only because it has a "big motor"? I thought that was, at least in the beginning, your claim to fame with your conversion. More room for gen2 hemis as I recall. So why dont you enter your hemi powered duster in a race event, and clean house with your BIG engine and superior suspension?

 

[TT5.9mag]

straw man?????

did you bother watching the video......

the remark comparing the 2 cars (6:15) was.....no replacement for displacement. He was NOT comparing suspensions by any means. The Mopar was faster because it has a big (long arm / stroker) motor

Sorry Denny this is entirely untrue. I personally have out lapped cars with significantly more horsepower than our Miata. Power alone does not make a handling car fast.

 

[NC Engine Builder]

a lot have, I would say by far, the most common reason is.....fitting a large engine in a small engine bay. As I stated a few rants back, I wanted to prove that

oil pan to ground clearance is just a small issue..... how do you get by the steering box with the exhaust and other steering components to lower the engine....I'll wait

Well it was YOU who said, and I quote, its "nearly impossible" to lower the engine in a factory chassis. And it's not. It's easy. Now you want to know how I got header clearance? I modified the headers, who could have imagined that.

 

[DionR]

straw man?????

Yes, straw man argument.

"A straw man fallacy (sometimes written as strawman) is the informal fallacy of refuting an argument different from the one actually under discussion, while not recognizing or acknowledging the distinction."

did you bother watching the video......

the remark comparing the 2 cars (6:15) was.....no replacement for displacement. He was NOT comparing suspensions by any means. The Mopar was faster because it has a big (long arm / stroker) motor

Ah, that's where it is in the clip. I fast forwarded it to try and find lap times between the two and they weren't there. Didn't realize he just commented. Pretty sure the private video had better info?

I like how you skipped over 5:47 where the guy said he was "absolutely blown away by how well that thing handled". That wasn't intentional was it?

 

[HemiDenny]

Here’s the real deal Holyfield right here. This is how new parts should come to market.

Claim (faster)
Claim (better)
Claim (lighter)
Claim (stronger)
Following closely by
Data (faster)
Data (better)
Data (lighter)
Data (stronger)

When supporting data does not follow claim the flags go up. And while, as a business owner I understand companies not posting proprietary property it keeps anyone from believing such claims. Most of the time customers will willingly hand out the information after the purchase due to being overly happy or overly disappointed with the product. We’ve seen none of that in this case likely due to how hard it is to plot suspension geometry but up until this point all of the “evidence” could be considered subjective.

a good way to know if a product fulfills it claims is are you customers satisfied?. The only bitching I ever get is right here. Not from customers, just detractors who luv their torsion bars. And of course they follow with....your customers simply do not know any better.

A lot seem to be hung up with graphs that can change simply with different tire diameters and ride height.....and the best part, they NEVER even drove one of our older Mopars with a (one of the top three) coil over / rack conversions.

It is fun....and never seems to get old.

 

[HemiDenny]

Well it was YOU who said, and I quote, its "nearly impossible" to lower the engine in a factory chassis. And it's not. It's easy. Now you want to know how I got header clearance? I modified the headers, who could have imagined that.

Thank you, you proved my point.....not an out of the box install is it?

 

[TT5.9mag]

Yes, straw man argument.

"A straw man fallacy (sometimes written as strawman) is the informal fallacy of refuting an argument different from the one actually under discussion, while not recognizing or acknowledging the distinction."



Ah, that's where it is in the clip. I fast forwarded it to try and find lap times between the two and they weren't there. Didn't realize he just commented. Pretty sure the private video had better info?

I like how you skipped over 5:47 where the guy said he was "absolutely blown away by how well that thing handled". That wasn't intentional was it?

He did say the BMWs are a full second a lap slower on similar tires.

 

[HemiDenny]

Yes, straw man argument.

"A straw man fallacy (sometimes written as strawman) is the informal fallacy of refuting an argument different from the one actually under discussion, while not recognizing or acknowledging the distinction."



Ah, that's where it is in the clip. I fast forwarded it to try and find lap times between the two and they weren't there. Didn't realize he just commented. Pretty sure the private video had better info?

I like how you skipped over 5:47 where the guy said he was "absolutely blown away by how well that thing handled". That wasn't intentional was it?

OK, I misunderstood about the straw man dude.

 

[TT5.9mag]

a good way to know if a product fulfills it claims is are you customers satisfied?. The only bitching I ever get is right here. Not from customers, just detractors who luv their torsion bars. And of course they follow with....your customers simply do not know any better.

A lot seem to be hung up with graphs that can change simply with different tire diameters and ride height.....and the best part, they NEVER even drove one of our older Mopars with a (one of the top three) coil over / rack conversions.

It is fun....and never seems to get old.

Customers can be very happy and I don’t doubt that yours are for the reasons you’ve previously given. But the dispute comes from claims of “faster” and “better handling” (which all COC companies claim) yet (dare I say all?) most of the customers using the product DONT go out and test those variables.

 

[NC Engine Builder]

a good way to know if a product fulfills it claims is are you customers satisfied?. The only bitching I ever get is right here. Not from customers, just detractors who luv their torsion bars. And of course they follow with....your customers simply do not know any better.

A lot seem to be hung up with graphs that can change simply with different tire diameters and ride height.....and the best part, they NEVER even drove one of our older Mopars with a (one of the top three) coil over / rack conversions.

It is fun....and never seems to get old.

Then we can simplify the who discussion into more simple terms.
People like your suspension for various reasons, which is great. But you have zero wins or track records, or even any evidence of geometry advantages. Your simply a guy selling a product, who can not back up any of the superior handling claims with real world proof. You make a nice product, in my opinion the best of what's available. But to claim it handles better or faster, is obviously a false claim, and your just making yourself look bone headed trying to argue any different. MoPar to ya!

 

[HemiDenny]

He did say the BMWs are a full second a lap slower on similar tires.

because they have less displacement (power)....it had nothing to do with the suspensions on either cars.

 

[TT5.9mag]

because they have less displacement (power)....it had nothing to do with the suspensions on either cars.

Denny I am 4 seconds (that’s a lot) faster in my Miata with a 1.8 liter engine that makes 140hp around Fontana than I am in a Camaro SS with an LS3 that makes 485 hp. It’s not about displacement. I had hundreds of laps around that place in many different cars.

 

[NC Engine Builder]

because they have less displacement (power)....it had nothing to do with the suspensions on either cars.

Now your really starting to look like you have no clue what your talking about. Did you ever hear the old saying it's better to keep quiet and let people think your ignorant, than to open your mouth and prove it? And the funny thing is, your only hurting yourself, because neither myself, or anyone else pointing out your falsehoods are trying to sell anything, YOU are. Sheesh guy.....

 

[goldduster318]

It would be quite easy to apply a load both in the driving direction and in the cornering direction to both designs at the lower ball joint pivot and measure deflection in a static case. Run either the HDK or the RMS Alterktion (designs are extremely similar) up against the stock one with a spherical strut rod and a delrin or poly lower bushing as most people would run and measure the movement of both the ball joint location and also the LCA mounts and compare. I would say the force carried about 60% of 3300 lbs and 2/3 of that applied to the most loaded wheel, so a force of about 1360 lbs being just a cornering load or braking load at 1G on one corner. If you added something like a pothole the forces would be a lot higher but that's outside of "handling". It would be a lot harder to experimentally set up, but there should also be the normal force of the car at about the same weight, though the weight of the car has to be carried by the spring as well.

The engineering hypothesis is that the coil over type design that we currently see has a lot of movement in both locations, more than the stock one due to the moment between the logitudinal rail of the k-frame and the pivot. If the frame in which it is all mounted to moves a lot the rest of it matters a lot less. As in, the alignment changes dynamically in unanticipated ways. Basically the same reason you'd remove stock rubber bushings and the like. The stiffness also effects the action of the shock and spring.

The frames on the coil over kits have a lot of room to be made to be stiffer as were covered in this thread.

 

[TT5.9mag]

It has much more to do with power to weight ratio and I am almost certain the 2012 BMW M3 has an advantage in that catagory against a 4 door b body big block mopar from the 70s. The mopar would have to make 650hp and I’m fairly sure that one doesn’t.

 

[HemiDenny]

Then we can simplify the who discussion into more simple terms.
People like your suspension for various reasons, which is great. But you have zero wins or track records, or even any evidence of geometry advantages. Your simply a guy selling a product, who can not back up any of the superior handling claims with real world proof. You make a nice product, in my opinion the best of what's available. But to claim it handles better or faster, is obviously a false claim, and your just making yourself look bone headed trying to argue any different. MoPar to ya!

I NEVER claimed it handles better....or faster. I said ....hold its own. I NEVER claimed superior anything....anytime.

I do claim and stand by, lighter weight, ease of adjustments especially more aggressive alignment specs (over OEM), and ability to more easily install different, larger engines.

the rest is either a figment of your imagination or lack of reading comprehension.

 

[TT5.9mag]

I said ....hold its own

Do you have hard data showing this?

 

[HemiDenny]

Customers can be very happy and I don’t doubt that yours are for the reasons you’ve previously given. But the dispute comes from claims of “faster” and “better handling” (which all COC companies claim) yet (dare I say all?) most of the customers using the product DONT go out and test those variables.

Please point to where HDK makes the claim (you say all COC companies claim)....faster or better handling.

I know better.