Info wanted on Indy LA X heads

[crackedback]

360, 750 Holley, .474" cam, 8" converter 1 5/8"-1 3/4" step headers, LA-X with 1.92/1.625 valve job & lite mill, as cast went 117 @ 3,540+ lbs.

But the point I'm trying to make, while the LA-X are good heads, Oldmanmopar has a set of factory 894 X-heads professionally ported by '70's Mopar guru Ed Hamburger. (Probably not max ported.) He is correct if figuring that his ported 894 X heads would likely flow about as much if not more air and not justify spending $1200 on unported LA-X heads. Both as cast - LA-X flows more. Both ported - LA-X flows more. Ported 894 X vs unported LA-X - ported 894 X is probably better and no money spent. If not better, certainly not $1200 worth.

For WIW, something around 240 for as-cast LA-X 1.92/1,625 sticks in my head but I can't find anything in print. I believe OEM 894 X heads were often shown as around very low 200s I also have an old "For 340's & 360's Only" Hamburger catalog which may have details on his ported heads but I hid it too well. In the early '80's when I switched from 2.02 X or J heads to 2.02 W-2 heads, I picked up about 3 tenths. (Minimal smoothing, if any.) But it's been too long to remember the details. As mentioned in my post #5, I picked up at least 2 tenths going from as-cast 587 to as-cast LA-X.

Can't go by flow #'s alone but the examples & estimates are good enough to show the standings and a correct decision.

Eyeballs and old thought don't fit with those LA-X heads when it comes to how they perform, especially with a 2.02 in them and great valve job.

 

[RAMM]

Eyeballs and old thought don't fit with those LA-X heads when it comes to how they perform, especially with a 2.02 in them and great valve job.

Agreed, most car guys don't understand how much power is actually in the chamber. Hint---Find Ben Alameda and research what he found. He was a Ford guy but his AHA moment came from a Chrysler engineer. IME the Magnum variants -EQ/IndyLAX/MAX are worth 25hp over equally prepped LA's. The real world results suggests far more than 25hp. I do agree though-no market for them now. J.Rob

 

[Scampin]

Do you think a max effort set would be 25hp over a max effort set of J's or X's?

 

[PRH]

Do you think a max effort set would be 25hp over a max effort set of J's or X's?

You mean……while being limited by a modified factory TQ intake manifold and running factory ex manifolds thru a full 2.5” exhaust?

Unless someone has already done exactly that test, then any answer you get is a guess.

There is only one way to know for sure how it would play out.

 

[Scampin]

You mean……while being limited by a modified factory TQ intake manifold and running factory ex manifolds thru a full 2.5” exhaust?

Unless someone has already done exactly that test, then any answer you get is a guess.

There is only one way to know for sure how it would play out.

Are you implying it's not a common combination? Think of all the benefits everyone is missing of using factory cast iron parts in an full effort race car!?!

 

[PRH]

I’m probably just on the “outside looking in” at the group of racers who are running that popular combo.

Here’s some results from using ported lax heads, but not with the factory int/ex manifolds:
424 Small Block on the dyno.

 

[Brian Hafliger]

Another look: How to Make 600 HP with Cast-Iron Heads on a Mopar 340 Stroker

 

[furrystump]

Wow, I didn't know about the decision to allow those in your group. I've wondered about that for years and thought that class would be the one instance where they could be a good fit. 5 minutes to grind the Indy logos off and voila, you have "factory appearing" heads that flow almost 300cfm...

That’s the issue I had, a replacement part should only be allowed if it is pretty hard to find a stock useable core. If the requested replacement is a performance advantage, originals should be almost non-existent and finally, the replacement should be available in high enough quantities that anyone wishing to run them can find a set. Those heads fail that test at every level. There is NO shortage of original LA cast iron heads. The discussion should have stopped there. Decisions were made way in the past that allowed aftermarket heads for some cars. They can’t go backwards, this was an effort to try to offset that? I believe that they should have pull all aftermarket small block heads out of the class instead of adding one. No one was running or building a combo that was going to use an aftermarket head (challenging for a record) so it was a good time to get them out, but the decision was made. No one is running the Indy LA-X.

 

[furrystump]

Are you implying it's not a common combination? Think of all the benefits everyone is missing of using factory cast iron parts in a full effort race car!?!

You aren’t allowed in here!!! Get out! Eat a salad or two! That will get you a 9! I have to watch you EVERY minute!

 

[PRH]

Back when they were readily available someone sent me one for testing.

It was decent, but I didn’t love it.

 

[rmchrgr]

Those heads fail that test at every level.

"When approving any non-factory part, it is up to the FAST board to decide if the part is a reasonable substitute for the factory part, or a safety item."

Sorry in advance if I am talking out of school here because I truly admire what you guys do in F.A.S.T. but I'll go into lawyer mode and argue that statement (from the F.A.S.T. web page) is only about a 'reasonable substitute' - it makes no mention of parts availability or anything about performance increases over fatory parts so it would appear as if neither of those ideas factored into the decision to allow them. RHS heads are obviously not a safety concern either so maybe the board just has a looser attitude towards this than some of the racers.

Again, grind off the Indy logo and you have a "factory appearing" cast iron head. Isn't that essentially what the class is about? Though not engine related, some of the parts on your car are not even close to being stock pieces to the extent that said items are made from materials that didn't even exist when the car was first manufactured. Where do you draw the line? I love that stuff BTW so no hate, just making a point.

Also, since no one has used them in class racing yet, there is no evidence or data suggeting the RHS heads are in fact a distinct advantge over a factory head. Everyone presumably modifies their heads extensively anyway so what difference does it make if it says Chrysler or RHS on them before you start grinding?

There's only a handful of SBM cars in the class so the amount of entries it would currently affect is small. Maybe they want to encourge more SBM racers to join? I dunno. I cerainly took notice when I saw the statement that RHS heads were made legal.

Making no other changes, it would be interesting to see if (or how much) an equally-prepped set of RHS heads would pick up over a factory head. The closed chamber is probably an advantage but to what extent IDK.

 

[furrystump]

I understand your point, FAST does reach out to get the racers opinion on things (as it did on those heads) and I’m sure it is like herding cats. My post stems from a more traditionalist view of FAST style racing. My opinion only. Quite frankly it would be hard for me to say to a small block GM guy with a limited budget. “Go find a 50 year old hammered casting and spend $3000 getting it ported” when he can buy a Dart cast iron heads for 1/2 the price. Mopar guys don’t have that option. It took me 3-4 years to get the $ to have my X’s done, not complaining, just it was important to me to run the x castings. I knew this going in. The effect the Indy LA-X head would have on the class? Brian would have a 9 second sticker on his car. If I allowed him to buy some! (he’s wants to and does run an original casting, but he has moments of weakness!) There is a serious small block GM out there that might give him fits, which I believe has decided to not run the aftermarket GM head, but the owner is more focused on his big block car. I keep telling him anybody can do it with a big block, come run with the cool kids.

 

[rmchrgr]

I appreciate that answer. There's always going to be gray areas in any class of racing and individual racers are going to navigate those situations as they choose. If the RHS heads were approved before you started in F.A.S.T. would you have gone with them?

I think the main point here is whether it would take less time and money to get a set of RHS heads to perform the same or better than a set of max-effort factory parts. I think the answer is probably yes. I don't have a whole lot into my set.

I don't know the limits of a stock '68-'71 340 head casting as I've never messed with them to any real extent. What I do know is that speed costs money so depending on what you want to achieve anything is possible if you throw enough dough at it. At some point that stops making sense though.

Since everything else bolts up the same with the RHS heads, the other real-world cost of them is going from open to closed chambers since that would likely involve changing pistons. Higher compression will only help make more power overall though so it's not like a bad thing. Not sure where you all are at compression wise but I'd suspect nobody is running on pump gas...