Somethings the site does that I don't agree

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while we're deep down the rabbit hole of "what does and does not make a gen-u-wine 340 car" is, and how faking cars is bad mmmkay, i think that the initial matter at hand shouldn't get lost:

somebody got their knickers in twist because it was their perception that someone else was trying to pass off a car as an "original 340" car when nowhere in the ad copy was it stated that it was.

okay, back to your regularly scheduled programming
 
I'd be far more concerned about the VIN and body numbers matching.
And since neither has been shown in the sale ad, or on the previous Mecum sales auction to refute the issue, the probability is more likely to exist.

Due diligence? Sounds great. That is what asking about these things is! What it's a secret? It's not uncommon for people to purchase online without physically being there to scrutinize. Is it what you or I would do? I wouldn't, but many have to educate themselves with the knowledge to be as informed as possible before striking a long distance deal, or even a local one. That is the reason many are here. It's their method of Due Diligence.

When an individual wishes to sell any type of collectible they are free to advertise it anywhere they wish, however to target their biggest market they ultimately will advertise on a site that everyone is a potential customer. The downside is that the onus is on them to prove the items provenance on request, and they should expect that others on that site may take umbrage with their response, and may challenge the authenticity of their item. If they fail to do so, that is their choice, but it allows others to at least be aware of a potential issue, and either move on, or move forward accordingly. To that individual it may be the education of something they were unaware of and justifies their reason for being on a site that is specific to their interest in the first place.

On another site there is a lengthy discussion of an individual rebodying mcodes. A member on this site as well. As someone interested in acquisition, this education has been very informative to me, and for that I am thankful in advance for avoiding an expensive potential mistake. Due diligence in a nutshell.
 
somebody got their knickers in twist because it was their perception that someone else was trying to pass off a car as an "original 340" car when nowhere in the ad copy was it stated that it was.

1969 Dodge Dart Swinger For Sale At Auction - Mecum Auctions

Like duh......

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you clearly didn't read my other response to you, and that's fine. so i'll repeat it here: never, ever, EVER trust what an auction prints. ever.

you don't know who wrote it, you don't know who gave them the info.

and again, because you didn't read it before: matching numbers to what exactly? the year? to a dart? to a 340? to whatever transmission that's in there now?
 
Oh I read them. I just am having trouble understanding why you are not comprehending it.

1. The auction states the VIN. Obviously a 1969 Swinger 340.

2. The car has the " MATCHING NUMBERS BLOCK". This does not mean the displacement matches. It says nothing about the transmission. It says nothing about what car it is out of. It is a generally accepted term in the Mopar world starting in 1969 (some 1968s as well) that the VIN stamped into the engine block matches the VIN on both the dash and the body locations.
 
Oh I read them. I just am having trouble understanding why you are not comprehending it.

1. The auction states the VIN. Obviously a 1969 Swinger 340.

2. The car has the " MATCHING NUMBERS BLOCK". This does not mean the displacement matches. It says nothing about the transmission. It says nothing about what car it is out of. It is a generally accepted term in the Mopar world starting in 1969 (some 1968s as well) that the VIN stamped into the engine block matches the VIN on both the dash and the body locations.
i don't give a flying frig about the auction. they've been known to be wrong FAR too often.

again, just because it's generally accepted terminology in our world and we have a definition for what that entails doesn't mean that the auction does.

and i don't see why you can't comprehend that.
 

Are you really basing your argument on the fact that the Mecum listing is wrong? That's pretty weak.

They use various descriptions when describing the installed engine. Some like "a factory P-code 400 or a factory H-code 383" indicates correct style (maybe year) correct displacement Non-numbers matching. Others like "340ci V8" mean just that. All listings that have matching numbers are stated as such.
 
generally accepted terminology in our world and we have a definition for what that entails doesn't mean that the auction does.
In our world? This isn't Barney's Sunday Auctions. They sell most of the most valuable and sought after Mopars ever built. As well as every other marque. I think it is generally accepted terminology in their world as well. Hell, even for all other makes! We ain't that speshul
 
People casually toss around terms without respecting what they really mean.
If a person says numbers matching engine, the last six of the VIN has to be on the block, the block itself has to be the displacement as noted on the 5th character of the VIN too.
Nobody I know of cares about a matching numbers slant six or 318 though.
 
I just cannot conceive any of you could believe a 340 car could come from a manufacture with no right side exhaust hanger .

And worse that during the restoration they forgot it, Welded up the holes and decided it just didn't need one. and do it so perfect under the car its not noticable.

Numbers can be removed and welded into a body with no problem. Hiding that hanger removal would be difficult and for what reason

This Demon came here for a front clip. We put the original numbers into the top rad support. Not the whole top piece either. We cut them out neatly and tig welded them in far enough away from the numbers. once the weld was smoothed with a small flap wheel and the car was painted you couldn't tell . They were the original numbers . We could have just replace the whole top cross piece but then you would be able to see the replacement by removing the original spot welds.

Putting numbers on a body if you have the original doner is a breeze. Forgetting the original exhaust hanger would be easy to do also. And once the donor is gone back then your screwed because they didn't sell that hanger separately at the dealer. Many non dual exhaust cars that come here with duals the hanger has no bracket and bolts right to the floor. They are not performance bodies.

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I obviously wasn't there "back then" so I have no clue what they did then, but in today's OEM powertrain or veh assembly plants, a deviation can be requested and signed off by engineering for missing parts or parts that do not meet some given spec. Happens all the time. The deviation captures any/all VIN's impacted to ensure the manufacturer knows what's out there.

This current practice most likely started out of some liability concern.
 
LOL dig in...

lots of ASSumptions. Different world when this car was painted up when people didn't care much about the paint dab/oem resto stuff.

Wrong on the drip rail trim.
A missing screw/bracket on a car that has been clearly torn apart since new means it's not a 340 car... OK... The bracket holes may have been filled and it's not hard for a person with marginal body skills to get that done. What could be bad about having holes in the floorboards with exhaust dumped under the car. It's not curing cancer or something.

DUE DILIGENCE
 
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Right? Anyone that says that EVERY car came a certain way and there were no exceptions isn't being realistic. Hell there's a member here that said his '70 340 Dart 4 speed had 3 of the 4 torque boxes installed and no braces on one side for the bucket seats it came with.

torque boxes



Yeah, things were supposed to be a certain way. But it was an assembly line in the 60's/70's, and there are exceptions for every rule. Multiple factories, multiple lines, many years of assembly, sub-par employees, trainees, you name it. Anyone that says that every car was perfect is insane, it's well documented that many were not.

Could a car have left the factory without an exhaust hanger? I would absolutely bet one could have. Does that mean the car in question did? No idea. But using an exhaust hanger to call a guy a fraud on a 56 year old car that's been restored at least twice? That's more than a stretch, that's just flat out rude. Like I said, facts not in evidence. I'm not saying the car is original, I'm not saying it isn't. But accusing someone of fraud because of a missing exhaust hanger? There's gotta be a hundred legit reasons for a hanger like that not to be original.



And yet there are several members here with 340 cars that were factory automatics and had torque boxes. And a member with a 340 stick car that had 3 torque boxes. And another that says his car had rear torque boxes and no fronts. And without a lot more evidence, I don't have a reason to doubt any of them. Orders were changed on the line, stuff got installed and then things changed. And yeah, **** happens. Monday morning and Friday afternoon cars are a real thing.

TORQUE BOXES ?

torque boxes
Maybe the line was getting back-up and someone cut a corner. The 340's had several other items than the basic cars in 69'. Shoulder belts attached to the visors, sway bar on the K-member, welded washer on the K, 10" drums all the way around or disc in the front, 4 speeds had duel points, larger torsion bars, if came with an LA motor or even a larger set, if it is BB or RB block car, the throttle linkage was different on the four BBL cars and many Acessories had different part numbers for the different cars. Some items I mentioned could be had as an option, as in HD cars like a taxi, but the 340 cars had them as standard. Getting back to the missing hanger bracket, how was the right center exhaust pipe attached to the body, without the hanger bracket? How would that save time in the build, not having that bracket installed? Anything is possible, without an explanation.
 
LOL dig in...

lots of ASSumptions. Different world when this car was painted up when people didn't care much about the paint dab/oem resto stuff.

Wrong on the drip rail trim.
A missing screw means it's not a 340 car... OK... The bracket holes may have been filled and it's not hard for a person with marginal body skills to get that done. It's not curing cancer or something.

DUE DILIGENCE
Due diligence?

been doing this a long time. a picture of the trim was the first question leading to the bracket. Been doing this a long time and got many to admit they rebodied 340 cars pointing out that bracket being missing.

Here is another example. I was walking carlisle with friends and I saw a 1970 road runner. Looked like my car with some changes. Originally my car was a 383 auto on column car but a solid rust free southern car. No drive train. I took a blue 70 4 spd car and put the drive line in the auto car and added the air grabber , never changed the vin and removed the Data plate.

Looking at the car at carlisle I was positive the car was mine but it now had bucket seats . I asked the lady where they bought the car? Out west she said its a one owner car.

looking at the vin and the rad support and the data plate they matched. And the Data said 4 spd air grabber and buckets. One thing that would prove it was my car and that they were scammed was, If she would open the trunk I would show her the damage we repaired above the tail light. You could not see but feel all the bumps from hammering the tail panel out on the top next to the right tail light. Surprize Surprize! it was my car with the vin changed. They were stunned. They were told it was a one owner south west car never hit. I emailed them tons of pictures of the build.

Second Last picture there's Todd again and my wife polishing the survivor GTX it was just a the nationals this year. I wasn't always an a body builder I had several B's and some E's. I see them all the time at shows. Saw my R/T conv. at Carlisle 3 years ago.

If that 340 Dart came with no exhaust hanger its one in a million. I call it like I see it and you all could do the same. Excuses do not make it the real deal. If someone looks at the car they should confirm all the numbers including the trunk lip . Any machine shop can put the numbers on the engine. and the trans.

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Your trim ASSumption was WRONG from the start.

Admit it. Nope, not you.

More look at me picture show that is IRRELEVANT to the base discussion on this Dart. I'm shocked. LMAO

The lot guy selling the car has ZERO knowledge/clue whether the car came with the bracket or not. It may have been there, it's not now. It's YOUR contention that it isn't a 340 car because the bracket isn't there NOW. By gawd what could have happened in the 50 years so the holes/bracket are not there any longer. Just dumb to belabor the point as YOU don't know either.

Did I mention YOU ARE STILL WRONG ON THE TRIM ASSUMPTION.

I'd like to see pictures of the car back in 85 when they were doing this one. That was an $700-1200 runner/driver car back then! Or a muncie 4 speed... LOL

Keep digging
 
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No one ever got a picture of the floor pan where the muffler hanger bracket was supposed to be right? So we don't know if the bracket holes are there or not right?

That Dart has had numerous owners, was once a beat up car needing lots of work, lord only knows who did what to that car. I wouldn't buy it sight unseen that is for sure. Might be a rebody might not. If I were a betting man I bet it isn't.
 
My car is a factory automatic car. But it has the clutch lever bracket spot welded to frame rail. I know for sure thats how it was when new. No torque boxes unfortunately.

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I recently asked 2 questions and for pictures on a car for sale thread for a friend interested in the car. My friend asked me if I thought the car was a real 340 car as claimed having original 391's. After the seller answered my questions on the open forum and provided pictures for all to see. The proof was evident the car was a rebodied restoration.

My posts were then taken down to hide the facts of the car not being the real deal 340 car. His own answer and pictures prove the hidden truth. But a site moderator helped him deceive other potential buyers on this site.

Instead of my posts being removed I would think his deceiving sale thread should be taken down or corrected. When did we decide to help members sell their clones when they clearly are. Remember this. All 340 cars came with drip rail chrome so when there is a painted filler piece still on the drip rail seam it usually didn't have the chrome from new.

Plus all 340 cars came with a factory right side exhaust hanger. Sure the hanger can be added but when the phillips screw that holds it in place was never there then it was usually added. This car never had the hanger at all and still didn't have one by the sellers own admission. And still the seller is allowed to sell his car as a original 391 car on this site. If we are going to enforce rules that should be one of the most important to enforce. No Fakes sold on this site unless stated as one.

Members pointing out discrepancies on this site is why people come here for advise due to the knowledge and honesty. When did that change to allow deceit. I believe that sale thread should be corrected or taken down not hide the truth for the seller just because it was built by a magazine years ago. Beware of fakes they are out there.
Agree, some of the "mods" are becoming overbearing when it comes to legit questions about "For Sale" items. The statement is, "take it to PM" some of the time. I've queried a few members about things via "PM" and then nothing but crickets. I also agree that some of the times the comments are unnecessary and maybe these comments should be deleted "with" an explanation to the poster(s) as to why. Blindly deleting things tends to piss people off and turn them away from this site. There are indeed bogus stuff that shows up here and members are quick to point it out.
Like I've stated before, I always liked reading the conversations on For Sale threads. You can sometimes learn a lot from the discussions.
Do y'all now understand why the 'boss' doesn't allow conversations in the classified section? Like mentioned before, we do allow some but man, this thing here will begin a 6th page very shortly. The owner of the site is the one the mods work for and the mods did not write the rules even though we sometimes voice our concern/input from time to time. It's been a long time since I've been on Moparts but I'm sure you still can't even respond to any ad there. Once an ad is published, it's locked. Correct me if I'm wrong. And that subject has been brought up on this site before.
 
People seem to be ignoring this one little ditty right here in PLAIN VIEW above the posted classified rule list. I mean, a blind, deaf, mute could understand this.

"We reserve the right to delete any ad or post for any reason or no reason, without notice or explanation."
 
People seem to be ignoring this one little ditty right here in PLAIN VIEW above the posted classified rule list. I mean, a blind, deaf, mute could understand this.

"We reserve the right to delete any ad or post for any reason or no reason, without notice or explanation."
....and I'm not taking sides with this. What I'm saying is, there is no clandestine effort to remove posts. The openly tell you your post or ad or whatever can be removed for any or no reason whatsoever. It's not like they're trying to hide it. The bottom line is, this ain't OUR site. It's Joey's and he runs it like he wants to run it. I don't agree with everything either, but it's all we got and the best we got. So there's that.
 
....and I'm not taking sides with this. What I'm saying is, there is no clandestine effort to remove posts. The openly tell you your post or ad or whatever can be removed for any or no reason whatsoever. It's not like they're trying to hide it. The bottom line is, this ain't OUR site. It's Joey's and he runs it like he wants to run it. I don't agree with everything either, but it's all we got and the best we got. So there's that.
I think everyone involved has expressed their views and opinions.
So keep the thread open or lock it ?
 
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