Yes the relay trigger is hooked up to a constant power source.
A1C is that power source and was/is somehow being fed when the key is in run.
maybe fed by the alternator like this
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Starter stays engaged ONLY in park???
- Thread starter Righty Tighty
- Start date
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A1C is that power source and was/is somehow being fed when the key is in run.
maybe fed by the alternator like this
Thanks. I'm going to check the connections running between the alternator and battery tomorrow, and add a terminal for the yellow start wire.
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
I think you already have a "the yellow" just remove the existing one which I think? is in the wrong hole and move it to the feed coming from the key. If I recall earlier, this is because of the starter interlock
Find that single yellow in the engine bay and trace it back.
Find that single yellow in the engine bay and trace it back.
I’m actually referring to the missing terminal at the bulkhead. Number 20 cavity.
Time go to the book and then compare with what you find.
Bottom line is to find or make a route from the column connector to the starter relay trigger terminal (I).
Wire S1 is yellow with the black tracer. Wires S2 are just yellow
See what the book shows for connections.
Based on the A-bodies, it may be something like below.
The dashed box represents the seat belt interlock etc box.
Without the interlock, just need one wire from the key start to the starter relay. See what is there and then figure out the best way to do that.
You still need to go back to the key switch and figure out what connections are being made in Start and Run.
No resistance between Starter yellow and Ignition brown is correct.
23 Ohms of resistance between Power in Red and starter yellow suggests a poor connection.
One probe on the power in red (12 ga) use the other probe to check the Ignition start, Ignition run, Accessory, Starter relay.
Key off, they should all be open circuits.
Key in Start, there should be little to zero resistance to Ignition start and Starter relay.
Key in Run, there should be no resistance to Ignition run or Accessory.
Bottom line is to find or make a route from the column connector to the starter relay trigger terminal (I).
Wire S1 is yellow with the black tracer. Wires S2 are just yellow
See what the book shows for connections.
Based on the A-bodies, it may be something like below.
The dashed box represents the seat belt interlock etc box.
Without the interlock, just need one wire from the key start to the starter relay. See what is there and then figure out the best way to do that.
You still need to go back to the key switch and figure out what connections are being made in Start and Run.
No resistance between Starter yellow and Ignition brown is correct.
23 Ohms of resistance between Power in Red and starter yellow suggests a poor connection.
One probe on the power in red (12 ga) use the other probe to check the Ignition start, Ignition run, Accessory, Starter relay.
Key off, they should all be open circuits.
Key in Start, there should be little to zero resistance to Ignition start and Starter relay.
Key in Run, there should be no resistance to Ignition run or Accessory.
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Thanks. I don't know if you saw in previous posts, but the seatbelt interlock has all been removed. The new harness coming this week will have all the factory interlock wiring, so if I need to I can do a "proper" bypass. At least I'll know what was done as opposed to whatever the previous owner did...which is who knows what.
With the higher than normal resistance between the power in red and yellow starter wire, how do I find the cause? Do I need to pull apart the steering column and inspect the harness?
With the higher than normal resistance between the power in red and yellow starter wire, how do I find the cause? Do I need to pull apart the steering column and inspect the harness?
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
No I've told you earlier. Either do voltage checks or resistance checks, I prefer voltage "as long as I can" and then resort to resistance after I've narrowed it down.
Get "the path" in your head just as if you were driving somewhere, you drive so many miles on US95, you turn off at wandering meadows road and go so far, make a Y to the left on red rose lane, and so on.
Same thing with wiring.
"The path" You come from the BATTERY STUD on the starter relay through the fuse link, through the bulkhead connector on the BIG RED ammeter wire, and to the infeed at the key switch CONNECTOR
You go through the ignition switch AND KEEP IN MIND that it is in reality SEVERAL SEPARATE switches. This means if you have a low voltage problem in one circuit, it might be in the switch even though other circuits seem to be fine
So "rig" a way to clip into the various connectors or find a helper. Hook everything up normal. If you want to disable the starter, but still have the relay operate, then just undo "the big square" screw where the solenoid wire hooks. Now when you turn the key, the relay "should" operate and load down the key with that much of the circuit operating (as an example.) Now check voltage at the points you can access EASILY then go back and catch the "hard" ones if they seem to be involved.
So check power at the big red going into the key switch, and read it carefully. Twist key to start, does it drop at all? If it does you might have a problem right there in the bulkhead connector in the BIG RED and the ammeter circuit. If OK, move to the yellow at the key switch does IT drop? If so, might be bad switch or the connector. Check both sides of the connector. Move out to the starter relay. Check the yellow there, and if it drops? You've already checked at the ignition switch, say, "it was OK" what is left? The terminal on the end of the wire, and the bulkhead connector. Move to the bulkhead connector. It drops? Has to be right there in that connector, that is all that is left.
"Just follow the path."
WHAT I SOMETIMES DO
Since the 73/ later factory diagrams are difficult to follow "sometimes" download the aftermarket diagrams from MyMopar. They leave out options but at least they are line drawings.
Another thing you can do is download the 72 shop manual from My Mopar. THAT WILL BE DIFFERENT than yours, but the line drawings in the book might be easier to get into your head.
This is a very simple circuit, now that the interlock is out of the picture. Don't overthink. It might help to draw it out by hand, and take notes what you did for readings
Get "the path" in your head just as if you were driving somewhere, you drive so many miles on US95, you turn off at wandering meadows road and go so far, make a Y to the left on red rose lane, and so on.
Same thing with wiring.
"The path" You come from the BATTERY STUD on the starter relay through the fuse link, through the bulkhead connector on the BIG RED ammeter wire, and to the infeed at the key switch CONNECTOR
You go through the ignition switch AND KEEP IN MIND that it is in reality SEVERAL SEPARATE switches. This means if you have a low voltage problem in one circuit, it might be in the switch even though other circuits seem to be fine
So "rig" a way to clip into the various connectors or find a helper. Hook everything up normal. If you want to disable the starter, but still have the relay operate, then just undo "the big square" screw where the solenoid wire hooks. Now when you turn the key, the relay "should" operate and load down the key with that much of the circuit operating (as an example.) Now check voltage at the points you can access EASILY then go back and catch the "hard" ones if they seem to be involved.
So check power at the big red going into the key switch, and read it carefully. Twist key to start, does it drop at all? If it does you might have a problem right there in the bulkhead connector in the BIG RED and the ammeter circuit. If OK, move to the yellow at the key switch does IT drop? If so, might be bad switch or the connector. Check both sides of the connector. Move out to the starter relay. Check the yellow there, and if it drops? You've already checked at the ignition switch, say, "it was OK" what is left? The terminal on the end of the wire, and the bulkhead connector. Move to the bulkhead connector. It drops? Has to be right there in that connector, that is all that is left.
"Just follow the path."
WHAT I SOMETIMES DO
Since the 73/ later factory diagrams are difficult to follow "sometimes" download the aftermarket diagrams from MyMopar. They leave out options but at least they are line drawings.
Another thing you can do is download the 72 shop manual from My Mopar. THAT WILL BE DIFFERENT than yours, but the line drawings in the book might be easier to get into your head.
This is a very simple circuit, now that the interlock is out of the picture. Don't overthink. It might help to draw it out by hand, and take notes what you did for readings
OK. I was actually a little uncertain about this since early in the thread you wrote that you disconected the interlock.
Orignally there was an interlock switch in the engine bay. This I think has the emergency bypass switch in it and is the one you disconnected?
I didn't show it in the schematic.
There also was another interlock box in the cabin. It may have had some other funtions too. I showed that with dashed lines. Is that still connected or is it gone?
Is the connector still there?
Again a little confusing to me. In a post Dec 17 you wrote that a new engine harness was en route. A couple days later in the post showing the ring gear teeth, it seemed that you had installed a new harness. Are you now getting an instrument panel harness?
If you have a good connection from the battery, you can test as outlined above in post #82.
Without a good connection to the battery, then check resistance in each key position. Do that with probes in the steering column connector.
Like Tooljunkie, I'd not be doing hot tests until I was a little more certain about where the hot wires are connected and that no loose conductors can contact ground.
I like the idea of drawing it out and labeling the readings. When I look at the diagrams, everything seems pretty simple. But then I get out under the dash or hood and I have a hard time separating the wires that matter and the ones that don't in this situation. I also get distracted pretty easily.
So, I think it would be helpful to wire it "correctly" and test from there. Otherwise I'd just be wasting time.
I'm sorry, I wasn't clear. The interlock was disconnected when I bought the car. The switch was mounted in the engine bay, but not connected. Not knowing what it was, I proceeded to start the car and tune as normal. Honestly, I thought it was the horn relay. I removed it, but still have it. Also, I've looked under the dash for the interlock box, but I haven't found it. I suspect it has been removed. What does the connector under the dash look like? I'll post pictures tomorrow, but there are 2 connectors at the steering column I'm confused about. Both are yellow and have 3 terminals. One has nothing going to it, and the other has one wire connected.
Regarding the harness, I had another new engine harness, but it's for a '70 and not a '74 so I decided to use that one temporarily until the correct one arrives. The car starts and runs the same with either the old or new temporary harness, I just feel a little safer with the new one being in better condition.
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
Look at the photos. Long thin connector. The boxes came in various colors, plastic
1974 dodge seat belt interlock - Google Search
1974 dodge seat belt interlock - Google Search
Making progress.
I dug into the bulkhead connector to investigate the alternator cavity and why there was no terminal where the starter wire is supposed to go. First I'll talk about the starter wire. On the dash side in my car, the yellow starter wire doesn't go to #20 where it's supposed to, but rather goes to #9. I looked in the book and #9 is.......drumroll........the windshield washer cavity! So the mystery as to why the windshield washer wire was anywhere near the start relay has been solved, although it was connected to the wrong post.
Now the alternator wire. We saw the evidence of an overheating alternator wire on the engine bay side of the bulkhead, so I wanted to see how it looked inside. Turns out the alternator wire had melted to two other wires -- numbers 10 and 11 (parking lamps and right turn signal, respectively).
Now the question is WHY did it get so hot that it melted to those wires? On to the interlock connector in the cabin of the car. I still haven't found a box, but I think I found what 67Dart273 was referring to regarding the connector. See the blue connector here. Does anyone know what the yellow three terminal connector is for?
I picked up some female Packard connectors, but I haven't found any males yet.
I dug into the bulkhead connector to investigate the alternator cavity and why there was no terminal where the starter wire is supposed to go. First I'll talk about the starter wire. On the dash side in my car, the yellow starter wire doesn't go to #20 where it's supposed to, but rather goes to #9. I looked in the book and #9 is.......drumroll........the windshield washer cavity! So the mystery as to why the windshield washer wire was anywhere near the start relay has been solved, although it was connected to the wrong post.
Now the alternator wire. We saw the evidence of an overheating alternator wire on the engine bay side of the bulkhead, so I wanted to see how it looked inside. Turns out the alternator wire had melted to two other wires -- numbers 10 and 11 (parking lamps and right turn signal, respectively).
Now the question is WHY did it get so hot that it melted to those wires? On to the interlock connector in the cabin of the car. I still haven't found a box, but I think I found what 67Dart273 was referring to regarding the connector. See the blue connector here. Does anyone know what the yellow three terminal connector is for?
I picked up some female Packard connectors, but I haven't found any males yet.
It is sad that they didn't use enough different color wires or tracers back then. Same brown color wire casing was both ignition and electric washer pump. You would think that the washer pump wire would be in the same bulkhead connector with other wiper wires. That would have been the case if washer reservoir and pump were on right inner fender instead of left. They took that one wire to a different location of the bulkhead only to save a few inches of wire and tape it inot a left going harness.
All the days I have been watching this thread, I have thought about all the possible previous owner scenarios. Some would think the easy way to bypass the seatbelt interlock was to just use the brown wire that is hot in a same switch yellow wire start position. Forget the yellow wire, clip it.
That doesn't work. When ignition switch rotates back to run position brown no longer hot but blue is. Both are connected to a ballast resistor. Power can flow through that resistor in both directions (diodes would have stopped it but they aren't there). Brown and yellow are hot again, in run. It doesn't take a whole lot of voltage to close a starter relay. Starter runs so long as the NSS provides a ground. I honestly dont have a clue where your problem is. I just thought I should finally chime in with what bone head chit I have seen.
All the days I have been watching this thread, I have thought about all the possible previous owner scenarios. Some would think the easy way to bypass the seatbelt interlock was to just use the brown wire that is hot in a same switch yellow wire start position. Forget the yellow wire, clip it.
That doesn't work. When ignition switch rotates back to run position brown no longer hot but blue is. Both are connected to a ballast resistor. Power can flow through that resistor in both directions (diodes would have stopped it but they aren't there). Brown and yellow are hot again, in run. It doesn't take a whole lot of voltage to close a starter relay. Starter runs so long as the NSS provides a ground. I honestly dont have a clue where your problem is. I just thought I should finally chime in with what bone head chit I have seen.
Thanks for the input. I'm sure many folks on the forum would've solved the problem already if they were actually here and could get their hands on the car and use their experience. But it's me here, and I'm someone who has a lot to learn still.
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
Well the main thing is you now have your hands dirty and really starting to figure out the nitty gritty. The melted wire is a great example of 'what can happen' and this happens right in the wrapped up harness as well, sometimes. THAT can drive a guy nuts.
I do not know offhand what the 3 wire connector is. Here again --if you have not--get into the book beyond the diagram pages and look for the connector in the chart there for the "CI" connectors.
I do not know offhand what the 3 wire connector is. Here again --if you have not--get into the book beyond the diagram pages and look for the connector in the chart there for the "CI" connectors.
PROBLEM SOLVED!!
Ran the wire coming from the #9 windshield washer cavity to the ignition terminal, and switched the large red battery wire coming from #16 to the battery post. Starter functions as it should and disengages in "run."
I can't thank everyone enough for their help and sharing their knowledge. Boy, did I learn a lot in just a couple weeks. I've always hated electrical because I didn't understand it. Well, I still don't really understand most of it, but knowing more gives me the confidence to keep at it. She's not ALL figured out -- still lots of work to be done electrically -- but this was huge.
Ran the wire coming from the #9 windshield washer cavity to the ignition terminal, and switched the large red battery wire coming from #16 to the battery post. Starter functions as it should and disengages in "run."
I can't thank everyone enough for their help and sharing their knowledge. Boy, did I learn a lot in just a couple weeks. I've always hated electrical because I didn't understand it. Well, I still don't really understand most of it, but knowing more gives me the confidence to keep at it. She's not ALL figured out -- still lots of work to be done electrically -- but this was huge.
Now figure out where the washer wire goes. Right?
Its not central to your probelm but will be a small victory.
One end of the wire will be on motor under the washfluid tank. See if you can find the other end in the engine compartment cable connector. A continuity test will verify if its in the position the book says it should be.
Its not central to your probelm but will be a small victory.
One end of the wire will be on motor under the washfluid tank. See if you can find the other end in the engine compartment cable connector. A continuity test will verify if its in the position the book says it should be.
Agreed, but sometimes small victories are what we need to keep that momentum.
So, I haven't looked at the wash fluid tank yet, but the wire coming from the connector in the engine bay is the one being used for the starter. Someone switched cavities on the cabin side and routed the starter wire to the washer cavity, then connected the washer wire to the relay. I think that's how they bypassed the interlock.
Did you correct the A1 (battery) wire connections?
Note: Because the same color is sometimes used for different circuits, and sometimes colors change within a circuit, its often helpful to call the circuit out by name.
Yes, the battery connection I changed was the A1 connection.
I ask because this is critical.
And we could also ask whether the damage to the R6 wire relates to the missing fusible link?
Did somone just hack it out for the fun of it? I doubt it.
Nope. Look at the wire insulation colors.
I'm pretty sure I know what it is, but best you look it up in the book.
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
Oh sure that makes "some" sense. I'm happy to hear you made some progress. You sounded like you were getting a bit frustrated for awhile.
Unfortunately it "gets worse" The diagrams for the 90's EFI stuff are worse, and there's 10X as much wiring LOL The "always automatic" light switch (photocell controlled) are a real POS in my GMC and I haven't found a simple way to bypass that mess
I think by that you mean you connected the A1A segment to the A1C segment.
If so, good. You'll still want a fusible link there.
While trouble shooting, maybe the best thing will be to wire in a circuit breaker.
That way if there is a short, you won't end up with melted wires or worse.
To clarify.
A1 is the wire designation. A1A is the segment from the battery to the relay junction. I think the book calls the fusible link A1B. That's the next segment and connects with A1A at the starter relay stud. The next segment is A1C. They may have also called the segment from the bulkhead to the ammeter A1C. It varies a little depending on who drew the diagram and how much coffee they had that morning. But that's the concept.
The connectors themselves designations as 67Dart273 already described. As you know when there are multiple cavities withing the connector, they often get numbered. So wire A1C connects in cavity 16 of CE2.
Which gets us to something practical.
On your car it looks like a wider terminal is used in cavity 16. The typical Packard 56/58 type terminals are 1/4" across. If you have to replace that one, it may need to be a wider one. Point is, try to save that one if its not damaged, it may be easier to splice into the wire than track down the correct terminals.
If you haven't seen this, worth checking out
Inline wiring splice clips........from the Dodge RAM service manual
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from the '73 Chrysler electrical Troubleshooting booklet.
Place like this in the circuit
Speaking of Chrysler tech booklets.
Last page of the '74 Interlock booklet gives the location of the control unit.
Last page of the '74 Interlock booklet gives the location of the control unit.
I appreciate that. It does help to go find the answers myself in the book.
You're right, I was getting frustrated, but only to the point where I thought I should take a break. I don't think clearly when I'm frustrated.
Yes, I connected A1A to A1C. I'll pick up a fusible link next time I'm at the local electronics store. They've got lots of goodies you can't find at chains.
Thanks for the link, I'll check it out.
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