1972 Plymouth Duster Alignment failure

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The difference between the newer (spool) and older K is the FACTORY sway bar goes inside the K on the newer, and UNDER the K on the older. You must have the tabs on the LCAs in a different spot for each. But if you buy an aftermarket bar (Hotchkiss, etc) made for cars which had no bar, these will go under the K.

Search the tools thread for the bushing tool. You can also buy these on Ebay

Here's one for LCA in the tools thread

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=58818&page=10

My upper bushings tool

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showpost.php?p=1970076957&postcount=163
 
Here's the thing. Start with your pitman. Is it worn? If not use it, and make CERTAIN it fits the center link correctly. The holes may have been "diddled." Look carefully at the diagrams I posted of the early / late setups. ALL THREE PARTS, the center link, the pitman, and idler, must match. You cannot just turn the center link "upside down."

Now if the first two parts are OK, and the holes have not been reamed, get an idler to match the first two.

Sorry, but I'd bet it's been reamed out to fit. This means, at the least you'll need a center link.

The "key" is what pitman you can get to fit your box. That is, whether it's large or small spline. You can use EITHER setup. Example, I converted my 67 to "late" spool K BUT used EARLY center link set up UNTIL NOW that I'm painting it........converting back to a power box. When I get done, it will have a LATE pitman / idler / center link, using the same tie rod ends.
 
67Dart273 said:
Here's the thing. Start with your pitman. Is it worn? If not use it, and make CERTAIN it fits the center link correctly. The holes may have been "diddled." Look carefully at the diagrams I posted of the early / late setups. ALL THREE PARTS, the center link, the pitman, and idler, must match. You cannot just turn the center link "upside down."

Now if the first two parts are OK, and the holes have not been reamed, get an idler to match the first two.

Sorry, but I'd bet it's been reamed out to fit. This means, at the least you'll need a center link.

The "key" is what pitman you can get to fit your box. That is, whether it's large or small spline. You can use EITHER setup. Example, I converted my 67 to "late" spool K BUT used EARLY center link set up UNTIL NOW that I'm painting it........converting back to a power box. When I get done, it will have a LATE pitman / idler / center link, using the same tie rod ends.
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Haha sorry if it seems like i'm not heeding all this info, i just want to be pretty sure of what and how i'm diagnosing these things, before i begin. I do finally get the difference in the two setups, but now the only thing that still isn't clear is how to tell the difference in small vs big splined on the gearbox. Is the difference noticeable? I didn't specifically see it in any of the links yall posted, and i did a search for gearbox spline changes. This car just seems a little like starting with Frankenstein and trying to turn it into the president
 
Bret2094 said:
still isn't clear is how to tell the difference in small vs big splined on the gearbox. Is the difference noticeable?
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Absolutely. If I have to I can go out and caliper mine.

A useful source and good read is over at the tech pages at BigBlockDart:

http://www.bigblockdart.com/techpages/techindex.shtml

Here we go: From one of the above pages:

"The large sector, just above the splines as it exits the housing, measures 1.22". The small sector measures 1.11". "

And no problem on the "heed." My car is a good example. It is a mix of older and newer parts, very few, other than the body, are original 67 LOL. "The guy" who ends up with this after me might have a nightmare.

You seem to be doing fine. Dig in and learn. You have a lot of issues, and a long ways to go.

At this point, probably the most important thing to figure out is

1....whether the pitman is in good usable shape

2...whether it properly matches the center link and whether the center link holes have been hogged out

of course in addition to the K member issue

and figuring out what to replace for "wear" parts.

As I eluded to earlier, if you don't know the history of the bushings, and if they look at "all" old, I'd replace them all. If you don't know the history of the ball joints, replace them

The pitman, idler, and tie rod ends, you can "wiggle test." once you get the "right parts" issue solved.


If this were me, I'd go roughly in this order.

Replace the K, get GOOD mounts on the engine, and get it back into place. Replace or rebuild the oil pan at this time as well

Examine and resolve the pitman / link / idler compatibility (early / late) issue

Replace rubber bushings

Get it back together and "rough" align. It does not have to be absolutely perfect. Jounce and test steering and make certain that the center link clears headers and other obstructions

If not, stop there and do what you must to repair.

Then, assess wear and play in any wear parts that were used or original. Ball joints, tie rod ends, pitman, idler This is assuming you did not have the money to replace "everything" to start with.

Replace these last remaining that showed wear

Do a final alignment, final steering clearance test, road test, etc
 
Pretty sure i just found a good source of my heartaches... The Center link and the idler arm are for a 73-76......buuuuuut the damn pitman is from a 72 or earlier. My guess is that when they put in this motor (for some stupid reason) they decided to put the later center link and idler in. My bet is that the newer pitman they had wouldn't fit on the spline/ wrong size , but this is speculation. Things are starting to make a lot of sense now
 
Probably good speculation.....congrats on getting the new K-member (Austin is not exaclty next door to College Station!) and figuring out so much so fast.
 
nm9stheham said:
To everyone.....look at the directions in which the pitman arm stud into the draglink and the idler arm stud into the draglink point; they are in opposite directions. The pitman arm stud points up and forward; the idler arm stud points down and back. I believe this is AFU....for those with a Duster/Demon, please confirm that these studs should point in the same direction: up and forward. Looks like someone flipped the idler arm for header clearance.....idiots. I assume this under-engine photo is correct: http://www.collectorcarads.com/Plymouth-Duster/47001

If this is right, then the tapered hole in the drag link where the idler arm goes in may be all buggered up......

OP, I would NOT go back to that shop if they are responsible for this work and did not catch this......I'll go over this again after supper. Sounds like a lot of the bad stuff I quickly see has been caught already.
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After rereading, im actually not sure about this idler arm..did everyone agree that it has been flipped?i am positive that the center link is 1973-76 because it is a flat bar where as the older has a 90 degree turn in it. the pitman is 72 or older. upon removing the center link, the pitman still sits good and cozy, without any terrifying movements. The center link doesnt seem to have any extreme amounts of wear as suggested earlier, so it is still usable, but i am leaning towards putting a 72 centerlink in...if i can find one.( just looked through the classified adds) this idler is pretty much toast though.
 
nm9stheham said:
Probably good speculation.....congrats on getting the new K-member (Austin is not exaclty next door to College Station!) and figuring out so much so fast.
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It was only an hour and a half( outskirts of austin) gotta love my lil toyota for long trips.(can't argue with 35 mpg)
 
I would get "all three" apart and post some photos. What I'm worried about is that someone hogged out one of the holes to get the taper in there

It matters not which center link you use SO LONG AS you get a correct pitman that fits, and a matching idler. As I posted earlier, I've actually converted my car from early to late because of the power steering box, and because of the parts I have on hand.
 
Bret2094 said:
After rereading, im actually not sure about this idler arm..did everyone agree that it has been flipped?i am positive that the center link is 1973-76 because it is a flat bar where as the older has a 90 degree turn in it. the pitman is 72 or older. upon removing the center link, the pitman still sits good and cozy, without any terrifying movements. The center link doesnt seem to have any extreme amounts of wear as suggested earlier, so it is still usable, but i am leaning towards putting a 72 centerlink in...if i can find one.( just looked through the classified adds) this idler is pretty much toast though.
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I think these pictures are what they are talking about. Personally I can't see them well enough to tell for sure but I think the idler is going in from the wrong direction.
 

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67Dart273 said:
I would get "all three" apart and post some photos. What I'm worried about is that someone hogged out one of the holes to get the taper in there.
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Exactly....x2 here.

Not sure at all if the idler had been flipped or was just from a different vintage and setup; the flipped idea was just the first thought I had since the pan and headers are there and some clowns don't realize what they are doing and flip suff and grind out tapers and such just to get clearance. The obvious problem when viewing the initial pix was that the idler and pitman studs were coming into the link from opposite directions which is wrong. Being from different vintages would create the same problem so your current conclusions may well be 100% right; either way, something needs to be fixed.

When you say no 'extreme amount of wear' in the center link, do you mean that you have looked closely at each hole and the tapers are still there and clean and not 'mooshed' out at the narrow ends of the tapers? The pitman and idler holes are of particular concern.

BTW, the holes' taper angles should be the same as the matching angles on the studs. Look up 'ball joint taper' as an example of tapers if you want to read more. There are tapered reamers that can be used to clean up these holes a bit but you need the right angled reamer.
 
Oklacarcollecto said:
I think these pictures are what they are talking about. Personally I can't see them well enough to tell for sure but I think the idler is going in from the wrong direction.
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I could swear he had a photo earlier of the idler??
 
Oklacarcollecto said:
I think these pictures are what they are talking about. Personally I can't see them well enough to tell for sure but I think the idler is going in from the wrong direction.
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Ya just gotta look long enough....idler stud from the top...pitman stud from the bottom. Look at the one with the pan.... the tie rod stud/nut/cotter pin are clear and are behind the idler supprt (the wheels msut be turned to the left); the idler nut is very dark and oily but can be seen just inboard from the tie rod end; the idler arm is that rusty looking bit above the link and to the upper left of the pan. The pitman stud is easier to see in the other photo.

Jesus, now that I look at them, one of the inner tie rod end studs is coming in from the opposite direction as the other! Right is coming in from the top and left is coming in from the bottom.....this is a record for AFU steering linkage! Did this car ever drive anywhere? Did these guys cut the center link in half and reweld it with one half flipped over! LOL
 
When i said no extreme amounts of wear, i am referring to this "mooshed/hogged out" taper you speak of. The taper seems to be uniform, along with the tapered ends on the pitman and idler.

I was going off the whole idea that all three (idler,pitman and centerlink had to be the same era) Is this not what y'all have been stating? only idler and pitman need be same vintage? Seemed to be what was stated earlier contradicts...As far as pics, its gonna be dark in like 20 min so i'll have everything disassembled and cleaned so we can determine the wear tomorrow.(currently working outside on the ground)
 
Here in California we have what's called the bureau of automotive repair. They are here to help the consumer when auto repair shops do terrible work on cars. They will investigate the problems you have with repair work, and get your money back. You should check to see if Texas has a similar bureau, and get your money back.
 
Bret2094 said:
When i said no extreme amounts of wear, i am referring to this "mooshed/hogged out" taper you speak of. The taper seems to be uniform, along with the tapered ends on the pitman and idler.

I was going off the whole idea that all three (idler,pitman and centerlink had to be the same era) Is this not what y'all have been stating? only idler and pitman need be same vintage? Seemed to be what was stated earlier contradicts...As far as pics, its gonna be dark in like 20 min so i'll have everything disassembled and cleaned so we can determine the wear tomorrow.(currently working outside on the ground)
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Not sure on the confusion......I was originally assuming that the ones in the car are all of the same vintage but that the idler was somehow flipped; that may not be true. Follow 67Dart273's guidance on the matchup of parts; it is correct.

And when you say uniform, I hope you mean at a uniform tapered angle (decreasing diameter, large end of hole to small end of hole), not uniformly straight (constant diameter through the hole from one end to the other).

BTW the tapers in the crosslink should go in the same direction in pairs; the inner pair of crosslink holes for the pitman and idler should be in the same direction; and the outer pair of holes for the tie rod ends should also be in the same direction, but can be different from the inner hole pair. It all just needs to be checked in case the holes were welded and re-reamed in opposite directions...I am ready for anything to show up on this one.
 
No definitely not uniformly straight!!!! haha looks like i need to use my words different. It has a uniform tapered angle, but i will be posting pics (hopefully with a better camera) to make sure i have come upon the right conclusion
 
Bret2094 said:
No definitely not uniformly straight!!!! haha looks like i need to use my words different. It has a uniform tapered angle, but i will be posting pics (hopefully with a better camera) to make sure i have come upon the right conclusion
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Please post your pictures to this site. Having to go through photebucket makes things harder for some of us of farts.
 
Bret2094 said:
only idler and pitman need be same vintage? )
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No, "it's a set of three." Look at the first diagrams I posted of the earlier and later series. The center links, idler, and pitman are all different. All three of these MUST go together. You cannot intermix them.

Center link is pretty much the same from 67 -- 72. 67 had the "odd" idler with a stud mounting instead of a through bolt. But you can "work over" a 67 K and "convert" it to use a 68 - 72 or even a 73 / later idler

The deciding factor is pretty much the pitman. You must have a pitman that matches the spline on your box.

The thing I am not at all clear on is "which boxes" have large and which have small splines. I have a manual box and an older power box with small splines, I believe. I believe the later power box that's in there now is large spline.

There is NO WAY to intermix the early / late pitman and idler, unless the tapered holes are hogged so far as I know, unless the nut is "just sort of started" and that might not be possible

This is why I suggest you get all three out, and some GOOD photos of them, so we can help you determine what you have.

There are other photos posted on this forum of the early / late series stuff
 
67Dart273 said:
No, "it's a set of three." Look at the first diagrams I posted of the earlier and later series. The center links, idler, and pitman are all different. All three of these MUST go together. You cannot intermix them.

Center link is pretty much the same from 67 -- 72. 67 had the "odd" idler with a stud mounting instead of a through bolt. But you can "work over" a 67 K and "convert" it to use a 68 - 72 or even a 73 / later idler

The deciding factor is pretty much the pitman. You must have a pitman that matches the spline on your box.

The thing I am not at all clear on is "which boxes" have large and which have small splines. I have a manual box and an older power box with small splines, I believe. I believe the later power box that's in there now is large spline.

There is NO WAY to intermix the early / late pitman and idler, unless the tapered holes are hogged so far as I know, unless the nut is "just sort of started" and that might not be possible

This is why I suggest you get all three out, and some GOOD photos of them, so we can help you determine what you have.

There are other photos posted on this forum of the early / late series stuff
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Think i just ran in circles hitting a bee hive... lol ill wait on the photo's before trying to explain the thoughts in my head, cuz it's just not working right.
 
Not that difficult. I keep saying this. The pitman MUST fit the steering box splines. Once you have that, you need to match the "right side up" or "upside down" stud to the center link, and last you need an idler which goes with the pitman. Once again, look at the early, late diagrams. They tell the story.

67Dart273 said:
The whole deal with later/ early boxes (big/ small pitman shaft) is the center link, pitman and idler. Everything else fits. I guess the exception is the 67 K member which has a "different" idler mount, so I'm not sure there is any way to adapt a later idler to a 67 K, at least without fabrication/ welding, which at least one member on here did.

So look at your center link where the studs come up through for the idler and the pitman. Are the nuts that hold them on top or on the bottom of the center link?

Early setup has nuts on top:



Late linkage has nuts on bottom:

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