1972 Plymouth Duster Alignment failure

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Looking at the photo bucket shots of the tie rod ends, the driverside one looks suspect also. The pass side has no threads exposed and the drivers one shows lots of thread and looks damaged. Could just be the camera angle. Don't like all the grease if it's a new part. That K frame is a HUGE issue.
 
Alright, Im starting to get a gameplan together here
1. New k member
2.360 passenger car oil pan/gasket/pickup tube
3.New motor mounts
4.$$$$
5. Empty pockets

I asked the guy that did the work and he said that they set the ride height before everything else, just fyi ( not that it matters anyway, now that all the other crap has to be done) He kinda looked at me funny when i asked him the trick question about the upper ball joints. I called the guy about the new(new to me) k and he still has it. $75 seem reasonable? (saw these new ones online for like $600) Anything else i should definitely put on my shopping list? Thanks for all the help so far
 
Wow... The control arm bushing are shot too.. But that K member and oil pan have got to go... DONT drive that car.. Bill
 
Bret2094 said:
Alright, Im starting to get a gameplan together here
1. New k member
2.360 passenger car oil pan/gasket/pickup tube
3.New motor mounts
4.$$$$
5. Empty pockets

I asked the guy that did the work and he said that they set the ride height before everything else, just fyi ( not that it matters anyway, now that all the other crap has to be done) He kinda looked at me funny when i asked him the trick question about the upper ball joints. I called the guy about the new(new to me) k and he still has it. $75 seem reasonable? (saw these new ones online for like $600) Anything else i should definitely put on my shopping list? Thanks for all the help so far
Click to expand...

$75.00 is a good buy. I would be on that quick so it doesn't get away.

On your shopping list you need the offset bushings for the upper control arms and all the other bushings that wasn't replaced.
 
BUY that spool mount K!!!

By the way you can download free service manuals, if you don't have them, here

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=244981

and here

http://www.mymopar.com/index.php?pid=31

Look towards the bottom of the thread for the 73 manual. You will need that for the newer disc brakes

Also be aware buying center link / pitman arm components. This is dictated by "what you have" and not by year or by the K member. The pitman, idler, and center link must all three be either "all early" or "all later" and the pitman must fit the box, which could have a small or large spline.

Read this:


http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=236925

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=248979
 
I have a bunch of general tools and access to an engine lift, would this be an insane job to do myself?( replacing the k that is?) Looks like ill meet up with the dude with the k at 10 tomorrow. I remember looking at an article in mopar magazine a while back about doing this job
 
you are on track. the K is the foundation. correct pan and pickup, new mounts. maybe get new front end shop!?????
I feel fore you. I am now working behind someone that started a project, quit it, sold it, next guy sells off parts, i'm comin behind and putting it back together and lookin for ALL the little parts and pieces ! LOL
I know how all this gets into your pocket, BUT once you get it right and can drive down the road as it should, LIFE will be GREAT!!!!!! persevere!!!!
 
Bret2094 said:
I have a bunch of general tools and access to an engine lift, would this be an insane job to do myself?( replacing the k that is?) Looks like ill meet up with the dude with the k at 10 tomorrow. I remember looking at an article in mopar magazine a while back about doing this job
Click to expand...

I get the impression you are young and in good shape? I recently swapped one into mine I'm 66 and have osteo and arthritic problems. A hoist makes it easy. I padded the inner fenders, used a big 4x4 blocked up with blocks and a chain to support the engine. Here:

I think I already posted the link once...........

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=227050

You can do this a bunch of ways. HERE IS what I would do and why...........

Break loose your spindles and ball joints, and calipers, etc and remove them. YOU SHOULD CONSIDER swapping the calipers and spindles to the opposite sides of the car. This will put your calipers on the REAR of the spindles instead of the front. This is for increased clearance for a sway bar if you should install one (Some aftermarket ones won't clear front mount calipers)

On the sway bar subject, your spool mount (anti) sway bar must be the proper one, as it threads through the INSIDE of the K member, unlike the earlier version.

So break the upper balls loose and remove the spindles, calipers, and if you are going to replace them, the ball joints.

Then remove the T bars. READ the shop manuals

There are two clips in the rear of the bars. You can remove the strut rod nuts, and the LCA pivot nuts, and pry between the LCA and the K member, and force the LCA and the T bar towards the rear, then slide out the T bar

You'll re-use the center link and idler, but you can strip them on the ground about as easy. Depends on whether you need to lighten it to handle it. I used bike tie downs to lower the thing

When I put it back in, I just blocked it up on concrete and blocks, and lowered the lift to meet it.
 
I have a question about the struts ....is there any apparent reason to put new ones in? When i actually get around to this, should i consider putting new ones in?
 
Strut bushings? If they don't look really new and you don't know, I would

In fact, if you don't know the history, I'd replace EVERY moving bushing. One of the guys above mentioned offset upper bushings. This is a good call.
 
To everyone.....look at the directions in which the pitman arm stud into the draglink and the idler arm stud into the draglink point; they are in opposite directions. The pitman arm stud points up and forward; the idler arm stud points down and back. I believe this is AFU....for those with a Duster/Demon, please confirm that these studs should point in the same direction: up and forward. Looks like someone flipped the idler arm for header clearance.....idiots. I assume this under-engine photo is correct: http://www.collectorcarads.com/Plymouth-Duster/47001

If this is right, then the tapered hole in the drag link where the idler arm goes in may be all buggered up......

OP, I would NOT go back to that shop if they are responsible for this work and did not catch this......I'll go over this again after supper. Sounds like a lot of the bad stuff I quickly see has been caught already.
 
nm9stheham said:
To everyone.....look at the directions in which the pitman arm stud into the draglink and the idler arm stud into the draglink point; they are in opposite directions. The pitman arm stud points up and forward; the idler arm stud points down and back. I believe this is AFU...
Click to expand...

ABSOLUTELY CORRECT!!!

READ my links I posted earlier................

67Dart273 said:
Also be aware buying center link / pitman arm components. This is dictated by "what you have" and not by year or by the K member. The pitman, idler, and center link must all three be either "all early" or "all later" and the pitman must fit the box, which could have a small or large spline.

Read this:


http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=236925

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=248979
Click to expand...

From one of the above links:

67Dart273 said:
The whole deal with later/ early boxes (big/ small pitman shaft) is the center link, pitman and idler. Everything else fits. I guess the exception is the 67 K member which has a "different" idler mount, so I'm not sure there is any way to adapt a later idler to a 67 K, at least without fabrication/ welding, which at least one member on here did.

So look at your center link where the studs come up through for the idler and the pitman. Are the nuts that hold them on top or on the bottom of the center link?

Early setup has nuts on top:

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/attachment.php?attachmentid=1714612653&stc=1&d=1366597817

Late linkage has nuts on bottom:

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/attachment.php?attachmentid=1714612658&stc=1&d=1366598599
Click to expand...

As I said earlier, the center link, the pitman, and idler ALL MUST MATCH. They all three must be "earlier" or all three "later" while still fitting the steering box spline. THIS HAS NOTHING to do with the year of the K member "after" 67
 
Thanks Del....I was looking for diagrams but dinner with the wife took precedence. No wonder the thing is not aligning up......and the idler arm motion looks strange....it IS stange AKA wrong. Gotta wonder what car the idler came off of .......

I would also encourage the OP to get into this himself, especially with lift access, etc.

The only reason to put in new struts is if they are damaged. I straigthened out a 5 degree bend in one 2 days ago with a minute of light work on the press and it is fine. Severe bends can weaken the strut. You DO need to put in new strut bushings at the front ends of the struts.

Offset upper bushing are typically put in after the standard ones don't work. If the body/inner fenders are straight I would start with the standard ones.

Edit to add other observations:
- The upper BJ boots were not seated properly and that is why they are pulled back.
- The driver's side lower BJ boot looks torn.
- Idler arm stud into draglink is missing the felt seal ; this may also be due to the taper being upside down.
- Other boots are obvious.
 
How your mechanic didnt spot or care about the k frame is beyond me. DO NOT ever go back to him. The k frame is a STRUCTURAL member! And they continued to do the alignment?
 
Yea looks like i just got shafted a ton of money..the place i went was the highest recommended in town, but like yall said, these cars aren't like aligning newer cars. when i mentioned lift beforehand, in my head i meant engine hoist..but i typed lift. Well class is over the 7th and ill have the rest of the summer to get this fixed. looks like ill be doing it myself
 
Don't mean to depress you guy......we all learned this one time or another. At least you are getting some good guidance and support here. I ran across this site a few months ago, and it has one of the best technically inclined regularly-posting groups around.
 
Bret2094 said:
Yea looks like i just got shafted a ton of money..the place i went was the highest recommended in town, but like yall said, these cars aren't like aligning newer cars. when i mentioned lift beforehand, in my head i meant engine hoist..but i typed lift. Well class is over the 7th and ill have the rest of the summer to get this fixed. looks like ill be doing it myself
Click to expand...
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You can post back here and ask. "We" all have been here done this. You can align it yourself with fairly simple tools. "If you are handy" you can even make a camber gauge.......it is simply an accurate level with which you can measure degrees "off" plumb. As I said before, caster is computed using that.

You need attention to detail, and patience, and "stick with it" attitude. We can help you with the rest.

If you have an O'Reallys auto parts in your area, they have special tools to load---tie rod separators, etc. You can MAKE the tools to change the bushings yourself out of pipe fittings, if interested, we can give you details on that.
 
nm9stheham said:
Don't mean to depress you guy......we all learned this one time or another. At least you are getting some good guidance and support here. I ran across this site a few months ago, and it has one of the best technically inclined regularly-posting groups around.
Click to expand...



Yea the whole let's get someone else to work on my project was basically fueled by a lack of patience. Now i get to do it over again!

As far as the pitman, idler and center link matching up , would it be worthwhile to put some coin away and by all three new, while making sure the pitman will fit the gear box? Just trying to wrap my head around this idea, sorry if my questoins come off silly. I can handle pretty much any assembly/disassembly, but matching parts and knowing what fits with what always needs clarity.
 
67Dart273 said:
\


You can post back here and ask. "We" all have been here done this. You can align it yourself with fairly simple tools. "If you are handy" you can even make a camber gauge.......it is simply an accurate level with which you can measure degrees "off" plumb. As I said before, caster is computed using that.

You need attention to detail, and patience, and "stick with it" attitude. We can help you with the rest.

If you have an O'Reallys auto parts in your area, they have special tools to load---tie rod separators, etc. You can MAKE the tools to change the bushings yourself out of pipe fittings, if interested, we can give you details on that.
Click to expand...


Have any links to making the bushing tool? This sounds like fun
 
Yes there is a recent thread on that here....I used some 2-3" pieces of 1.5" OD, .095 wall tubing and some simple long threaded rods and nuts and washers. Any pipe/tube will do.

For the center link, inspection is the first step. If all the tapered holes are good and the unit is staight, then there is no reason to not re-use it. Since the car is not driveable, you can take that out now and inspect and put back in with finger tight nuts on the studs for moving the car around. The big thing I would look for it the hole in which the idler arm is now connected; the idler's stud and center link taper look to be reversed and if the goon who did this drew it down really tight trying to make it work, then the taper in the center lnk may be 'moooshed' out at the narrow end, If this 'moosh'/damage only extends down maybe 1/8" then OK, but sometimes people/idiots will drill/ream/file these tapers when they mess this up; the tpaers have to be right, or they will never hold and be unsafe.

The joints in the pitman arm and idler arm are wear items, so yes, I would save for those. The pitman arm only has one joint so it can be inspected and if tight, then it is OK.

Tie rod end stuff is easy and the adjusting links between the tie rod ends can be reused if straight and have reasonably clean threads.

The boots on the upper BJ's look intact and just need to be seated when they are off the car. Since the boots are loose, you can inspect to see if the upper BJ's were installed right. If pressed in (wrong), then there would be vertical scoring marks on the BJ's metal body that protrudes out below the upper control arm. These probably were done right but I just would not take any chances and just make sure.

The lower BJ boot...maybe someone has one used and intact laying about; I would send you one but they are all trash. No new upper or lower BJ's should be needed so those $$ are not wasted. The upper control arm bushings cost only a few $$ each.

Did you ever get an answer from the shop if they tightened the lower control arm shaft into the K member when it was up in the air (wrong) or down on the ground with weight on the wheels? If tightened up with the car in the air, they may be damaged now. If you inspect up on the front sides of the LCA bushing, see if there are any new, loose, torn bits of rubber hang out. The other possible check is when you remove the LCA's when you take the K -member out; raise the car and mark the end of the shafts and then slowly loosen the nuts on these LCA shafts; if they were tightened properly (with the car on the ground and load on the wheels) then the shafts may rotate a bit on their own as you loosen the nuts; this is the normal bushing rubber tension being released.
 
Alright, I just got back from austin to get the new k...and it turns out to be the older style K, but i did make sure it was
in specs for a v8 according to this:

http://www.engine-swaps.com/Pages/ProductsType/K-Frames.html

My next question is this, With the older stlye v8 k, will i be able to put a sway bar in, sometime in the future, or is this limited to the newer 1973- k member?

Oh and I uploaded some more crummy pics


http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c339/Bret2094/IMG_20140628_125946_zps10bc020b.jpg

and

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c339/Bret2094/IMG_20140628_125914_zpsed1c81d3.jpg
 
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