318 Won't Start? And I tested as much as I could I think?

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67Dart273 said:
If you have spark, fiddling with the resistor test is not necessary. they might quit completely or become intermittent. Since you seem to have good spark ( and steady?) that part seems OK
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Well I'm at a loss now...
New Coil, Rotor, Cap, Wires, Plugs, and Resistor
Year old Distributer, Carb, and Fuel Pump
I'm on the compression stroke at #1 TDC with the #1 post at the rotor location, So with the Carb held wide open with no choke and starter fluid it still won't fire up.
But on starter fluid I did get my first and only partial fire with a small instant backfire up the carb, nothing after that. So I tried to advance a bit to see if I could get a spark and still nothing.
So a recheck with the timing light at it seems a bit off acting like what seems to be every so often and not as fast of a light when cranking?
Can this all be caused by the ICM or the Voltage Regulator?
 
VolksDuster said:
Can this all be caused by the ICM or the Voltage Regulator?
Click to expand...

ICM maybe, VR, no

If you have tested for a good hot spark then (what you are calling) the ICM should be OK

WHERE is the timing? You mentioned "light" you want AT LEAST 5-10 BTC on a dead bone stocker, and more if you have a "mild cam" in the thing.

What did you do for plugs? Clean them? replace?
 
Another thing you might do is clip your meter to the coil + terminal. Post your voltage readings with key in "run" and again while cranking USING THE KEY

You should get 6-8 or so "key in run" and "same as battery" when cranking. You want an absolute minimum of 10V or more while cranking, at the coil

RECAP on setting the timing:

You seem to have said you got it to pop. Might be:

Fuel/ air conditions just unlucky by chance
Timing slow / retarded
Distributor is actually 180 off even though you checked?
Distributor on wrong cylinder........a simple mistake, "been there"
Cam timing has slipped

So I would stick my finger in AGAIN and make SURE the no1 is on compression

Pull the cap make sure the rotor is APPROACHING the cap contact for no1 wire

If you have a light CHECK timing on the starter, you want at least 4BTC and I would go 8-10BTC. Make SURE you are BTC and not "after"

If you don't have a light, after you verify no1 compression, "wrench" the engine so timing marks are 'about 10 BTC' then recheck dist. Reluctor should be about in center of pickup core

WHEN YOU LEARN AND GET GOOD at static timing, you can (key on) move/ wiggle the dist body back and forth across the pickup/ reluctor and cause a spark from the movement of the distributor. You can REDUCE the movement more and more and get the timing "accurate engough" to start.
 
My $.02. run a ground wire to the Mopar ignition module, and connect it to the block. Worth a try.....:)
 
If y'all really think its fuel, they could run a fuel line from the pump to a 1 gallon gas can . It could be rigged up in minutes, and would pinpoint or eliminate fuel.
 
Dartswinger70 said:
If y'all really think its fuel, they could run a fuel line from the pump to a 1 gallon gas can . It could be rigged up in minutes, and would pinpoint or eliminate fuel.
Click to expand...


You can but it increases the fire hazard exponentially. So be prepared with a good fire extinguisher at hand. Gasoline fires get out of hand in a New York second.
 
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VolksDuster said:
Well I'm at a loss now...
I'm on the compression stroke at #1 TDC with the #1 post at the rotor location, So with the Carb held wide open with no choke and starter fluid it still won't fire up.
Click to expand...
Cold engine needs a rich mixture. Hence the choke should be shut or nearly shut.
Holding the throttle wide open means its impossible for idle system to flow. The idle system works on manifold vacuum, as illustrated in in this link.
But on starter fluid I did get my first and only partial fire with a small instant backfire up the carb, nothing after that. So I tried to advance a bit to see if I could get a spark and still nothing.
Click to expand...
Backfire up the carb is because the mixture in the cylinder ignited before the intake valve shut. If anything, it may be too far advanced.
 
Mattax said:
Cold engine needs a rich mixture. Hence the choke should be shut or nearly shut.
Holding the throttle wide open means its impossible for idle system to flow. The idle system works on manifold vacuum, as illustrated in in this link.

Backfire up the carb is because the mixture in the cylinder ignited before the intake valve shut. If anything, it may be too far advanced.
Click to expand...


Holding the throttle wide open is what you do when you think the engine is flooded so therefore the idle circuit wouldn't matter at all.
 
Mattax said:
Cold engine needs a rich mixture. Hence the choke should be shut or nearly shut.
Holding the throttle wide open means its impossible for idle system to flow. The idle system works on manifold vacuum, as illustrated in in this link.

Backfire up the carb is because the mixture in the cylinder ignited before the intake valve shut. If anything, it may be too far advanced.
Click to expand...
Thank you
I'm going to recheck the timing again, it should be able to at least fire up so it can be adjusted. I mean the rotor seemed to be well on a post, but I'll retard it a bit first. As for manifold vacuum, I get how that effect the idle but not that should prevent it for a quick fire up.
I am also going to do another fuel test,
I am wondering (hypothetically) if there was too way to much water in the gas, but octane was added before testing the gas for water. And this created a strong smell and the ability to light fire in a spoon. Would it be possible for starting fluid to be useless as its sprayed in the carb due to the excessive water?
 
I doubt it.. .ether is pretty explosive. Be careful with that.... it will take the oil right off the cylinder walls and it sounds like you have used way too much already.

I saw that you added octane boost to the old fule. I woul,d nto expect anything from that. You big enemy is the alcohol seprating out and them forming gum in the system and gumming up the carb. But you don't seem to be able to get even that far.

Again.... a tsp or 1/2 tsp of fresh fuel dumped down the carb, and the throttle opened a bit, should fire right off if the ignition system is anywhere close to right. That will tell you with that one simple step if it is fuel or ignition, so you can focus on the right thing.
 
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^That should work too ^

VolksDuster said:
but not that should prevent it for a quick fire up.
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What's it going to fire? need to get enough fuel droplets in there to match a at least a few full cylinders.
The manifold vacuum not only creates a low pressure to draw the fuel out of the idle system; it helps distribute the mix to any cylinder that opens.
With a flooded situation, there is so much liquid and fuel vapor in the manifold, fully opening the throttle and choke helps clear it.
 
Look QUIT fiddling with the carb/ gas/ tank/ worrying. I've fired up old engines with NO carb just an open manifold. Once you determine you have COMPRESSION, and convince yourself that the CAM TIMING has not slipped, and set the IGNITION TIMING, and if the plugs/ wires/ cap / rotor etc are in good shape (and firing order!!!)

You should be able to squirt between a teaspoon and tablespoon of CLEAN FRESH fuel (gasoline) down the carb throat and it should FIRE

it may not run long, but it should "hit" for 1-3 seconds or so, enough to let you know "this can run"

Did you read my thread test firing that magnum? That thing did not crank 3 seconds and it FIRED

And stop worrying about "what octane" and just get some fresh fuel. FRESH
 
............And now..........it's time..........for yet another old story from the old days

When I was stationed at NAS Miramar (Top Gun/ Fighertown USA) I had a part time job at the auto hobby shop on base. This was around 71--73

One Saturday I was not working, but rather on my own time, trying to "get stuff done."

A "then friend" (he ain't no more, he was a thief) had put a 396 into a 57 Chev. I helped him install the cam/ chain/ checked initial lash, and I KNEW that thing would run.

He came in my stall several times over the morning, borrowed a coil, some spare plug or coil wires, and ??? things. FINALLY he came in and asked, "Can you PLEASE have a look, we've been at this all morning and can't get it to fire

So I went out there, he says, "you have to pour some gas down the carb it hasn't pumped up from the tank yet."

He hands me a Pesi can, and EVERYBODY around the car was drinking soda. SO I SMELLED IT to make sure it was gas, handed it back and said

"GO GET ME SOM GAS!!!!"

Now, it wasn't Pepsi...............IT WAS JET FUEL!!!!
 
VolksDuster said:
Thank you
I'm going to recheck the timing again, it should be able to at least fire up so it can be adjusted. I mean the rotor seemed to be well on a post, but I'll retard it a bit first. As for manifold vacuum, I get how that effect the idle but not that should prevent it for a quick fire up.
I am also going to do another fuel test,
I am wondering (hypothetically) if there was too way to much water in the gas, but octane was added before testing the gas for water. And this created a strong smell and the ability to light fire in a spoon. Would it be possible for starting fluid to be useless as its sprayed in the carb due to the excessive water?
Click to expand...
Wait what?
While the engine is being cranked for start up, the throttles are nearly closed, so atmosphere has a hard time getting by them.Without air going by the low-speed ports, fuel doesn't flow either.
This is where the cranking vacuum kicks in.
Cranking vacuum is created by the ring seal on the pistons and by the closed exhaust valves. If either is faulty, your cranking vacuum is impaired. The rings are sealed by the oil on the cylinder wall. No oil equals no seal. Starting fluid is a fabulous oil solvent, so by now you have no oil on the rings and no cranking vacuum and you can keep chasing your tail around in circles until you get dizzy.

While the engine is running, the oil gets sprayed onto the cylinder walls from spray ports designed and built into the connecting rods. The oil control rings scrape most of it off, and distribute a nice amount to lube and seal the compression rings.

Liquid gasoline does not burn all that well, especially after the most volatile compounds have evaporated off. Fresh gas is CLEAR. It's color tells you how stale it is. It goes from clear to yellow to orange to red. Red is crap. Orange is almost crap. Yellow is trouble in a carb. If you can get it lit inside the engine then you can drive on it, but don't be flooring it.

Leaky exhaust valves can be felt on the end of the tailpipe......IF...... if the exhaust system is sealed, and if the rings are lubed.
Water in the gas is easy to spot; it settles to the bottom and looks like mercury rolling around in the bottom of a glass container, minus the color.
 
AJ/FormS said:
Wait what?
While the engine is being cranked for start up, the throttles are nearly closed, so atmosphere has a hard time getting by them.Without air going by the low-speed ports, fuel doesn't flow either.
This is where the cranking vacuum kicks in.
Cranking vacuum is created by the ring seal on the pistons and by the closed exhaust valves. If either is faulty, your cranking vacuum is impaired. The rings are sealed by the oil on the cylinder wall. No oil equals no seal. Starting fluid is a fabulous oil solvent, so by now you have no oil on the rings and no cranking vacuum and you can keep chasing your tail around in circles until you get dizzy.

While the engine is running, the oil gets sprayed onto the cylinder walls from spray ports designed and built into the connecting rods. The oil control rings scrape most of it off, and distribute a nice amount to lube and seal the compression rings.

Liquid gasoline does not burn all that well, especially after the most volatile compounds have evaporated off. Fresh gas is CLEAR. It's color tells you how stale it is. It goes from clear to yellow to orange to red. Red is crap. Orange is almost crap. Yellow is trouble in a carb. If you can get it lit inside the engine then you can drive on it, but don't be flooring it.

Leaky exhaust valves can be felt on the end of the tailpipe......IF...... if the exhaust system is sealed, and if the rings are lubed.
Water in the gas is easy to spot; it settles to the bottom and looks like mercury rolling around in the bottom of a glass container, minus the color.
Click to expand...


Liquid gasoline won't burn.

Starting fluid is bad.

The rods don't need the squirt hole. The cylinder walls get enough oil from the rod side clearance.

Between the decomposition of the fuel at firing and fuel wash when the intake opens engine oils are designed to seal the top ring without liquid oil at the top of the bore.
 
yellow rose said:
Liquid gasoline won't burn.

Starting fluid is bad.

The rods don't need the squirt hole. The cylinder walls get enough oil from the rod side clearance.

Between the decomposition of the fuel at firing and fuel wash when the intake opens engine oils are designed to seal the top ring without liquid oil at the top of the bore.
Click to expand...

Well, I've used Gas to start fires before so it defiantly can burn. As for the current fuel it's in a brand new tank and some was taken out to check and it was crystal clear.
Another guy I know is helping and it is running, but very rough. He re-adjusted a bit more and the whole carb on the bench, and found the float too high, pump vent (to much travel), as well as a diaphragm only popping in and out instantly, on top of that the choke temperature switch. The suggestion from him is to return the carb I bought a year ago and start over again.
S.O.B. how could this be this much of an issue? It's a 2bbl Carb. I guess I'm at the point now where I will replace the carb and the choke temperature switch.
 
VolksDuster said:
Well, I've used Gas to start fires before so it defiantly can burn. As for the current fuel it's in a brand new tank and some was taken out to check and it was crystal clear.
Another guy I know is helping and it is running, but very rough. He re-adjusted a bit more and the whole carb on the bench, and found the float too high, pump vent (to much travel), as well as a diaphragm only popping in and out instantly, on top of that the choke temperature switch. The suggestion from him is to return the carb I bought a year ago and start over again.
S.O.B. how could this be this much of an issue? It's a 2bbl Carb. I guess I'm at the point now where I will replace the carb and the choke temperature switch.
Click to expand...


There is always a vapor coming off of gasoline and that's what's burning. Not the LIQUID fuel. That's why atomization is important. Liquid fuel running into a combustion chamber won't atomize (most of it anyway) and it is lost power.

Again, liquid gasoline does not burn.
 
VolksDuster said:
Well, I've used Gas to start fires before so it defiantly can burn. As for the current fuel it's in a brand new tank and some was taken out to check and it was crystal clear.
Another guy I know is helping and it is running, but very rough. He re-adjusted a bit more and the whole carb on the bench, and found the float too high, pump vent (to much travel), as well as a diaphragm only popping in and out instantly, on top of that the choke temperature switch. The suggestion from him is to return the carb I bought a year ago and start over again.
S.O.B. how could this be this much of an issue? It's a 2bbl Carb. I guess I'm at the point now where I will replace the carb and the choke temperature switch.
Click to expand...
None of these things will make it hard to start.
When the engine is cold it wants a very rich mixture. So a high float level is no big deal.
As to the bowl vent, as long as it is open after the engine starts, then it is no big deal as to how far it is actually open... or how little.
The choke heater determines how long it takes for it to come off, so again has nothing to do with starting... as long as the choke does in fact close and enrich the mixture for starting.
As to the diaphragm popping in and out instantly, I'm assuming that you are talking about the choke pull-off...... and that is how it is supposed to work.
As to the rough running, that is a big deal, and may point to an ignition problem.... or to the airbleeds, or to the emulsion tubes, or to contaminated fuel, or to a mechanical failure in the engine..... like uneven compression..... or a slipped chain if they are all low.
Getting your carb working again is an easy thing.Carbs usually come with a 90day warranty. If you came to me with a sob-story a year later...... well, I'm sorry but you're SOL with me.
Testing your ignition is even easier.
And of course, there's nothing wrong with your cylinder pressure..... right?
 
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AJ/FormS said:
None of these things will make it hard to start.
When the engine is cold it wants a very rich mixture. So a high float level is no big deal.
As to the bowl vent, as long as it is open after the engine starts, then it is no big deal as to how far it is actually open... or how little.
The choke heater determines how long it takes for it to come off, so again has nothing to do with starting... as long as the choke does in fact close and enrich the mixture for starting.
As to the diaphragm popping in and out instantly, I'm assuming that you are talking about the choke pull-off...... and that is how it is supposed to work.
As to the rough running, that is a big deal, and may point to an ignition problem.... or to the airbleeds, or to the emulsion tubes, or to contaminated fuel, or to a mechanical failure in the engine..... like uneven compression..... or a slipped chain if they are all low.
Getting your carb working again is an easy thing.Carbs usually come with a 90day warranty. If you came to me with a sob-story a year later...... well, I'm sorry but you're SOL with me.
Testing your ignition is even easier.
And of course, there's nothing wrong with your cylinder pressure..... right?
Click to expand...

Okay, Sorry I've been away from the PC and the car is now back at my place.
It turns out that there is an issue with the carb and it's no longer under warranty, so I am going to buy a rebuild kit just because. And I'm also going to check the compression again tonight to be sure the are all very close. As for the Ignition, I'm not sure how to test the box? the manual says it requires a special test unit but I'm sure you don't. And I've the rest of the system I tested.
Anyway... One of the jets is not spraying at the bottom, it's dribbling. But that didn't keep it from starting, nor did the wires, coil, ballast, fuel, or any of it!
This was a PISS off, because I feel like an Idiot when I was doing the right thing at the start to get it running. And now I just need to get it running and starting like a top.
After it cooled all night it was hard to start again today. So I let it sit for a bit, then it took a lot more than jut 1-2 table spoons of gas down the throat. After about a 1/4 cup or more out of frustration it flashed for a moment then I pumped the hell out of it (about 10) then it started but rough again though. After letting warm up fully it's running a fair bit smother.
And now I am able to hear a bit of a rhythm in the rough idle, now that it's able to run long enough.
And like I say I am going to check some more suggestions ASAP and post tonight if I can.
Unfortunately sometimes when it rains it pours, my daily driver needs two ball joints as well now. The F-ing potholes here are crazy.
 
The ICM is not field testable without special test equipment. Substitution is what is done. I'd try to find and OEM one off of eBay.. what you get from overseas these days is questionable.

The point of the teaspoon full of fuel down the throat is that the IF the ignition is good, then it will fire off with that, even cold. Since it did not fire off, then I am pretty suspicious that something is still amiss with the ignition. 1/4 cup? Wow, that is a TON; it shouldn't have taken that much.

Do you have a volt-ohmeter so other parameters in the ignition can be tested? Things like the actual ballast and coil resistance need to be checked to be sure you have the right parts. If so, and you are willing to run down some checks, then I can list some things to measure.

You mention fuel out of the jets; do you mean the small circular 'things' down inside the carb's throats? (Those are called auxiliary or booster venturi's... see the 1st illustration here:
Automotive Systems)

At idle, there should be NO fuel visible out of these at all. Your needle valve in the float bowl may be stuck open with dirt/crud and just flooding things.. or the float level may be way off for some reason. Doing the carb rebuild is on track to clear up things like that.

Sounds like you may be plagued with 2 problems at the same time...carb + ignition. It happens.... not to mention the ball joints on the DD!
 
Carb a year old, can probably take it apart and clean your idle circuit. My power wagon sat fir a year, wouldnt fire on the old gas.
A shot into bowl vent gives it some fuel to light it up, as soon as its running its fine. Now i added premium and sea foam and it starts whenever i want.
 
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