Bobzilla
Well-Known Member
A member here did a good thread on the standard replacement cast iron Magnum heads.
Speedmaster magnum inspection w/Justin
360 Magnum Daily Driver (but fun too!!!)
- Thread starter Tuesday
- Start date
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Speedmaster magnum inspection w/Justin
If you’re wanting to go efi but wanting to save some money, consider keeping the factory mpfi injection. Course, the downside to using the factory mpfi is you’re stuck with either the kegger intake, the expensive Hughes intake or having a machine shop add bungs to a carbureted intake.
DionR
Well-Known Member
Even with the Hughes intake, seems like it would be cheaper than the Holley stuff. But you lose the self learning aspect, too.
One tricky part of the Magnum SMPI is the tone ring on the flywheel if you stick with a manual. There used to be at least one flywheel option with the required notches, but seems like it was for an LA motor so the balance was wrong. I could have it backwards though. Just something to look into before you go down that road.
Oh yeah, I didn’t think about the flywheel/manual issue. I plan to put the factory efi back on the 5.9 in my Duster but I have an intake that’s had bungs added and I’m also running an ax-15 transmission, so I was able to use a factory ram flywheel.
Most of us do carbs because we’re old, LOL! It’s what we grew up with, know how to tune and they can be crisp on the throttle. They’re not perfect next to a F.I. system. It’s just a preference and also looks.
There are 3 choices for Magnum cylinder heads. OEM, EQ, Edelbrock’s aluminum heads.
DionR
Well-Known Member
$10 says he didn't even know he disagreed with it. Probably reading on a phone and while scrolling up hit "disagree" without meaning too.
Or it could be your choice of trans?
DionR
Well-Known Member
Just my opinion, but I think the OEM EFI and similar can be more reliable than a carb. How many late model 150K+ mile rigs running around that haven't even had injector cleaner run through them? And it is getting to the point where an O'Reilly's or similar is more likely to have the required sensor and not the carb gasket needed to make it home on a long road trip.
The big issue is when you get outside of the OEM setups. At that point tuning becomes an issue and pushes the aftermarket solutions, and some of the aftermarket systems don't have the reliability record that the OEM stuff does.
Just no easy fixes.
One idea might be to run the full Magnum EFI including the intake, but cut the runners down. Engine Masters did a Magnum comparison which included a modified beer barrel intake and a RPM AirGap and the difference was only 30 hp and 10 ft/# (330/412 with the BB intake). This was the same motor as shown in the video in post #16, so it had a reasonable cam in it. Then you could later buy the Hughes intake and get most or all of that back. Just make sure you factor in the cost of the HPTuner software and paying someone to do a tune for you.
Might even be an option to run the Terminator setup on the BB intake since it would self tune. Only question would be if the Terminator box could use the Magnum crank and cam sensors.
The big issue is when you get outside of the OEM setups. At that point tuning becomes an issue and pushes the aftermarket solutions, and some of the aftermarket systems don't have the reliability record that the OEM stuff does.
Just no easy fixes.
One idea might be to run the full Magnum EFI including the intake, but cut the runners down. Engine Masters did a Magnum comparison which included a modified beer barrel intake and a RPM AirGap and the difference was only 30 hp and 10 ft/# (330/412 with the BB intake). This was the same motor as shown in the video in post #16, so it had a reasonable cam in it. Then you could later buy the Hughes intake and get most or all of that back. Just make sure you factor in the cost of the HPTuner software and paying someone to do a tune for you.
Might even be an option to run the Terminator setup on the BB intake since it would self tune. Only question would be if the Terminator box could use the Magnum crank and cam sensors.
Here you go. He details everything he did/used to run a boosted 5.9 (with the BB intake) with a Terminator X.
Also, I agree with you 100% on the reliability of the factory mpfi on the magnum motors. That’s the big draw (along with cheaper) for me to want to run the factory stuff over aftermarket.
DionR
Well-Known Member
Pretty sure I have this backwards. I was planning to run the Magnum EFI on my LA and was thinking about a different flywheel in case the front mount sensor setup I hacked together didn't work. I think what I ran into was that there was only one manufacturer that made a flywheel with notches for the sensor, but it was balanced for a 5.9 and wouldn't work with my LA motor.
I went round and round with a guy from Modern Driveline about this. They show (showed?) a flywheel part number MD-LBS360LA-130T that the guy swore was right, but I was never really sure. They do show a flywheel for the 5.9 with notches though, so there should be an option for the guy that is running a Magnum.
DionR
Well-Known Member
Thanks! I knew there was a video out there and I had planned to go looking, but hadn't had a chance yet.
I think that is the direction I would go. Use the same Comp cam, a BB intake with the runners cut down and a Terminator X controller. Should make enough power to be fun, and an intake manifold upgrade away from 350+ hp.
DionR
Well-Known Member
According to Modern Drivelines website, their 360 and 5.9 flywheels have the same 22.67 ounce balancing weight. So theoretically, the magnum flywheel should work on the LA and give you the provisions for the crank sensor.
DionR
Well-Known Member
The LA and Magnum use a different weight though. They can't use the same flywheel for both.
DionR
Well-Known Member
The guy didn't use the factory crank and cam sensors. He used a Holley dual sync distributor.
Honestly, that solves all kinds of issues in my mind, even if you don't do the coil near plug conversion like he did. I could run my current flywheel, no need to change it.
Not sure what the total would be, probably still kind of spendy. But probably still cheaper than the G3 swap I am seriously invested in now.
I'm pretty sure I fat fingered that! These phones are getting smaller all the time....sorry
autopar3000
Well-Known Member
I have factory EFI on a 5.9 in my Dart, and I came here to say what others have said in recent posts.
For a daily driver you should seriously consider the factory Ram / Ram Van EFI. Using the factory EFI you will save of a ton of money over getting a Holley Terminator X, and if you wanted to you could have the OBD2 PCM tuned to support over 500 hp. But the factory tune will easily run a mild RV cam, which is probably want you want for a daily driver. You could even pony up the money for a good intake and you're still miles ahead on cost (the Hughes Magnum intake is the only one you can buy new and it's $750). Or keep the Magnum kegger and save that $750. For a daily driver you don't need all the bells and whistles the Terminator offers anyway.
I know you said you don't have all that stuff from the 5.9 you have, but they made millions of those trucks so you won't have a problem finding the parts in your local boneyard, or check the classifieds and see what people have. For example, this guy from my local classifieds is GIVING AWAY FOR FREE tons of the parts you would need for a 1993 OBD1 setup: 1993 5.2 magnum v8 parts FREE | Engine & Engine Parts | Kingston | Kijiji
You probably don't want OBD1 (but that's why I have and it works great) so check out this guy that's selling everything from the engine fan to the tailshaft from a 1996 (OBD2) truck for $1200 CAD: 1996 Dodge 5.2 V8 drivetrain | Engine & Engine Parts | Stratford | Kijiji
The point is you can find this stuff super easily, and for cheap. You would need to get a full wiring harness, PCM, intake manifold and everything attached to it (injectors, fuel rails, throttle body, all the sensors on the throttle body), the coil & bracket, distributor, and crank sensor... and I think that's about it. I would buy a new O2 sensor.
Looking at the Terminator, which is no doubt a great system, I think you would need something like this one for a manual trans setup:
Holley 550-950 Holley Terminator X MAX Engine Management Systems | Summit Racing
OK, that's $1700 (plus shipping and maybe taxes). Add around $400 for injectors. Plus $200 for some fuel rails. Add the Holley dual sync distributor for $400. What about a throttle body? I googled and can't even figure out what would work, but it looks like these are over $1000 (really???). Let's be conservative and say the parts of your fuel system that you could just get from a 90s Ram will cost you over $3000. Could that even be correct? Seems crazy to me.
You'll need some other stuff with either system (fuel pump, the Tank Inc tank you should definitely get, plus incidentals like hose, fittings, etc) but if you really want EFI I would recommend the factory setup. Other advantages are OEM reliability, the fact that you can get any part for that system at just about any auto parts store across the country, and even new parts are super cheap. And everything you need to know for this swap is in the Ram factory service manual, which you can get for free online.
For a daily driver you should seriously consider the factory Ram / Ram Van EFI. Using the factory EFI you will save of a ton of money over getting a Holley Terminator X, and if you wanted to you could have the OBD2 PCM tuned to support over 500 hp. But the factory tune will easily run a mild RV cam, which is probably want you want for a daily driver. You could even pony up the money for a good intake and you're still miles ahead on cost (the Hughes Magnum intake is the only one you can buy new and it's $750). Or keep the Magnum kegger and save that $750. For a daily driver you don't need all the bells and whistles the Terminator offers anyway.
I know you said you don't have all that stuff from the 5.9 you have, but they made millions of those trucks so you won't have a problem finding the parts in your local boneyard, or check the classifieds and see what people have. For example, this guy from my local classifieds is GIVING AWAY FOR FREE tons of the parts you would need for a 1993 OBD1 setup: 1993 5.2 magnum v8 parts FREE | Engine & Engine Parts | Kingston | Kijiji
You probably don't want OBD1 (but that's why I have and it works great) so check out this guy that's selling everything from the engine fan to the tailshaft from a 1996 (OBD2) truck for $1200 CAD: 1996 Dodge 5.2 V8 drivetrain | Engine & Engine Parts | Stratford | Kijiji
The point is you can find this stuff super easily, and for cheap. You would need to get a full wiring harness, PCM, intake manifold and everything attached to it (injectors, fuel rails, throttle body, all the sensors on the throttle body), the coil & bracket, distributor, and crank sensor... and I think that's about it. I would buy a new O2 sensor.
Looking at the Terminator, which is no doubt a great system, I think you would need something like this one for a manual trans setup:
Holley 550-950 Holley Terminator X MAX Engine Management Systems | Summit Racing
OK, that's $1700 (plus shipping and maybe taxes). Add around $400 for injectors. Plus $200 for some fuel rails. Add the Holley dual sync distributor for $400. What about a throttle body? I googled and can't even figure out what would work, but it looks like these are over $1000 (really???). Let's be conservative and say the parts of your fuel system that you could just get from a 90s Ram will cost you over $3000. Could that even be correct? Seems crazy to me.
You'll need some other stuff with either system (fuel pump, the Tank Inc tank you should definitely get, plus incidentals like hose, fittings, etc) but if you really want EFI I would recommend the factory setup. Other advantages are OEM reliability, the fact that you can get any part for that system at just about any auto parts store across the country, and even new parts are super cheap. And everything you need to know for this swap is in the Ram factory service manual, which you can get for free online.
DionR
Well-Known Member
Let me start by saying I completely agree with you. The following is only for more data points and ideas.
I was curious yesterday so I went and put together a cart with the Terminator, Dual Sync distributor, blank cap and CNP harness; total was $1957.80 before tax (shipping was free). Don't think an X Max is required unless you wanted trans controls, and could probably get away with the stock injectors unless the cam got too big or boost was the plan. I would just run the stock fuel rail and throttle body myself. Still, add a Hughes intake and the fuel system and you are at $3k+ easily.
Since there does seem to be a source for a 130T flywheel balanced for a Magnum with the notches, no huge reason to go to the Holley setup. Really tempting for me since I can't get an off the shelf flywheel with the notches and would have to either rebalance my motor or get the flywheel balance changed. The idea of the Dual Sync distributor would have really made it simple for me since I am an oddball LA/Magnum hybrid.
I think I paid $200 for a PCM for a stick application and robbed a harness off a rig in a Pull and Save yard. Unwrapped the harness and de-pinned it to remove most of the unnecessary things and made sure it matched the PCM (they were different years). I bought the Hughes intake years ago when it was only $600 and pieced together rails, TB and stock injectors. I'm probably $900 all in, plus less than $400 for my tank. Knock the intake off and I am like $700 all in.
If someone isn't comfortable doing their own harness, Hotwire Auto shows a price of $1080 for a manual harness. They used to sell a reprogrammed PCM as well ($500?) but don't show it on their price listing anymore.
To be clear, the only part I have used so far is the intake (plugged the injector ports and running a carb) but the harness and PCM will never get used since I changed directions to a G3.
replicaracer43
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Lots of people have. Myself included. Did some R&D work for another shop, found that upper 260 cfm is possible with a good valve job and bowl work. Not very difficult. HOWEVER, compared to a stock OEM magnum head, they are slightly worse flow wise until you work on them.
MopaR&D
Nerd Member
Excellent post, definitely the way I would go. The only part the OP mentioned that the OE EFI system can't do is self-learning but that's overrated anyway, IMO. From what I've seen others say the self-learned tunes are never as good as the "manual" tunes set up by a professional tuner which can be done remotely through email, if the engine combo is far enough from stock to require it. Add a standalone wideband O2 sensor to your car and run some scans to acquire data from all the sensors over a few driving cycles, send that along with current tune file to the tuner, he will look at your data and modify the tune then send you a new tune file which you upload into the ECM and... that's all folks!
junkyardhero
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people keep mentioning using the stock kegger intake, does that fit under the hood?
DionR
Well-Known Member
With the low profile Durango air filter tube, I believe it does. But just going off memory.
junkyardhero
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interesting... i rolled the idea around in my head ages ago, but the height of that bad boy didn't pass the hairy eyeball test for the flat hood of the barracuda. and if i was gonna do it, i didn't want to go carb as that would be just a lateral move from what i currently had.
but with what all is available now... that may roll the log in the fire...
autopar3000
Well-Known Member
It easily fit in my 70 Swinger, using a 68/69 unsilenced air filter. Keep in mind those Magnum throttle bodies are not nearly as tall as a carb.
This pic is obviously when in was work in progress, but the engine is mounted. If you zoom in you should be able to see that there's definitely room for a standard muscle car air filter.
odie 2882
Member
I think too many people think an aftermarket EFI is the same as the very reliable, robust, and perfect system we all have in our daily drivers. Their not!
All the major auto companies are worth billions of dollars. They spend millions and millions and millions of dollars getting every engine they put out to be the most efficient and reliable it can be.
Now I'm not saying the EFI systems from Holly, Edelbrock ,etc. Aren't good but they definitely aren't as reliable as a carburetor.
Example. My wife and I just spent our vacation driving all over western Canada. Prairies to the foothills and then all through the rockies in my 2012 ram. If something happened to the truck I could hook up my cheap code reader and find out what's going on. Or maybe you have to take it to a mechanic. OK, even most small towns have a dealership, doesn't even have to be the same make. They can find the problem, order the parts and your outta there the next day. It's modern day factory parts!
Now same trip in your old mopar with a aftermarket EFI. Maybe you got the self learning one cool. So after days or weeks of driving this thing is diald in. Now in the middle of nowhere in the mountains say it fucks up. So you get it to a mechanic or dealership and I guarantee they are going too look at it with a confused look on their face or maybe not at all. And you will be paying them to learn!
So after alot of back and forth with the manufacturer you find out what's wrong and they ship the parts which will probably take more than one or two days (hotel cost, loss of vacation days etc.) To arrive. $$$$$$$$
Or put a nice new carb on the thing and drive anywhere!
Learn to tune it. Easier than an EFI IMHO. Have a cheap, good ,used carburetor in the trunk just in case. Four bolts,a couple clips and your running again!
Also I think this fascination with aftermarket EFI "will allow my engine to last longer, because of EFI " is ******* stupid.
If you're on this forum your a car guy. You probably notice every single noise, blurp, miss.etc. so you are going to keep a carb in tune. The old carbed engine's that washed cylinder walls down with ecsess fuel were driven by your great ant,your grandparents, your passed off dad going to work.
They didn't care back then. Doesn't mean that's the way it is with carburetors!
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