mullinax95
Well-Known Member
Yeah that's kind of what I was thinking.
$40 for a can of Freon? I think /not/.
- Thread starter Sully1190
- Start date
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Yeah that's kind of what I was thinking.
66plyValiant
Well-Known Member
If you are thinking about doing a system yourself; try it, nothing to loose
I have charged numerous systems with the small cans you buy at the local parts store, every system works excellent. Are they charged by textbook? likely not, but I'm not paying someone $100 to charge A/C on a car I paid $400 for!
mullinax95
Well-Known Member
Nah I was trying to help the OP that's all.
Lonewolf3165
Living the Dream!
Converting to R-134A is easy to do but there are some things you must know when doing it. First lets put away some of the myths. R-134A doesn't leak any faster than R-12 did. Remember you must have had a leak in the system to start with otherwise you wouldn't need to charge it, R-12 or not. So whatever you put into it would leak out unless you repair the leaks first.
Sencondly & more importantly is the older R-12 systems were designed for R-12 which will run at lower pressures in the same ambient air temperatures than R-134A does. So when retrofitting a system to R-134A you should ONLY ADD ABOUT 80% OF THE SYSTEMS R-12 CAPACITY WITH THE R-134A. So if a R-12 system needs 2lbs of charge you would only add 1.6lbs of R-134A. That will keep the pressures where they need to be & you won't lose cooling efficiency due to system overcharge. It is compatable with the R-12 type oil in the system already. Changing the desicant in it isn't absolutely necessary unless you have opened the system up for repairs, but it wouldn't hurt if you so desire.
Lastly, I would recommend against using ANY of the so called replacements out there. They don't really work better & in order to be compliant you need to have a different service adapeter set installed on the car & it should never be recovered into a machine that is used for any other type of refrigerant. EVEN if it's what it claims to repalce. That's federal law! You must have a dedicated machine for each type of refrigerant used & they must use differnt fittings so to avoid contamination. Besides, R-134a is so much more readily available & isn't that expensive anyway.
Sencondly & more importantly is the older R-12 systems were designed for R-12 which will run at lower pressures in the same ambient air temperatures than R-134A does. So when retrofitting a system to R-134A you should ONLY ADD ABOUT 80% OF THE SYSTEMS R-12 CAPACITY WITH THE R-134A. So if a R-12 system needs 2lbs of charge you would only add 1.6lbs of R-134A. That will keep the pressures where they need to be & you won't lose cooling efficiency due to system overcharge. It is compatable with the R-12 type oil in the system already. Changing the desicant in it isn't absolutely necessary unless you have opened the system up for repairs, but it wouldn't hurt if you so desire.
Lastly, I would recommend against using ANY of the so called replacements out there. They don't really work better & in order to be compliant you need to have a different service adapeter set installed on the car & it should never be recovered into a machine that is used for any other type of refrigerant. EVEN if it's what it claims to repalce. That's federal law! You must have a dedicated machine for each type of refrigerant used & they must use differnt fittings so to avoid contamination. Besides, R-134a is so much more readily available & isn't that expensive anyway.
Sully1190
Look. It's a Gold Duster.
Hmm. I googled it on their website and couldn't find it. I'll call the local on tomorrow and see if they have any in stock.
Red Tek for me. 6-8 bucks a can. Haven't had a problem with it yet. They are in Alcoa, TN.
66plyValiant
Well-Known Member
mine was envirotech 12A, worked good
daredevil
Well-Known Member
Well why not post it? You have the stage.
Jlcaptain24
Well-Known Member
my5thmopar said:
Another vote for Red Tek. Used it multiple times with great success. Super cheap to...think I paid something like 6-7 bucks a can. Worked great.
Charrlie_S
Well-Known Member
Why? Don't you know I'm just trying to take money from you? Usually when I post the correct way, I just get flamed.
Lonewolf3165 has it about right but you do need to install the proper oil.
Mulinax95, don't know about your post, I'm on dialup,so don't look at you tube.
OK, I'll try, but it might be long winded.
There are some differences, depending on the vehicle. First, as stated, find and fix any leaks.
If the hoses are in good condition (without hose clamps at the fitting), they will usually be OK.
If the car is a 69 or earlier "A" body, or has "aftermarket" A/C, I recommend a parrallel flow condenser (actualy I like to use them on most every conversion or new install, I'm in Florida). The original one is probably too small. Make sure you have plenty of air flow ( 5 or 7 blade fan, clutch type if you have room, or electric). The oil must be changed, and this depends on the type compressor (there is ester, PAG, 46, Pag 100, and PAG 150). The Chrys RV-2 compressor, can be a problem. They will work with R134a, but they will usually start to leak, after awhile. The seals and gaskets are not compatible, with R134a and the oils used. There are no aftermarket compatable seals and gaskets available, that I am aware off. The Crys C171, and Sanden style compressors work just fine. Some mopars with the RV-2 compressor have a EPR valve in the back of the compressor, in the suction fitting. With these systems, the compressor runs constantly when the A/C is on. The valve controls the pressure/temp of the evaporator. This will make the evap run at a slightly warmer temp with R134a. The cure for this is to remove the valve, and intall a thermostat switch in the compressor clutch feed wire. Mount the T-stat to the suction line near the firewall and wrap with insulation tape. You will have to play with the adjustment to get the evap as cold as possible, without it iceing up. You will now have a clutch cycling system.
It is not necessary to remove all the old oil from the system, but remove as much as possible. Do not blow it out with shop air, it has too much moisture in it (I use dry nitrogen, but for a DIY,don't worry about it). The only thing about leaving oil in the system, is it displaces refrigerant, and will slightly raise pressures, and slightly reduce cooling capacity.
Edit: With the RV-2 compressor it will be necessary to remove the compressor and drain the oil from it. This compressor has an oil sump, When the oil is drained, refill with the correct amount of Ester oil (it works better then PAG with this compressor).
I highly recommend changing the reciever/drier. I also recommend installing a "binary" switch in the high side line, some driers have a switch port for this. This switch will shut down the compressor, if the high side pressure gets too high, or the system looses charge. Use a vacuum pump and remove the air and moisture from the system. When charging with R134a charge to about 80% of the R-12 amount. Keep the head pressure below about 250lbs on a hot day.
NOW: the refrigerant.... There are many that will work, but.....
The law: All refrigerants must have unique fittings installed in the system. This is to prevent cross contamination (How do you know what is in the system, if the fittings have not been changed?).
The practical: ALL compressor Manufacturers and rebuilders will void the warrentee, if the system has had anything other the R-12 or R134a installed.
When buying Cans of refrigerant make sure it is PURE R-134a, NO sealers in the can. Sometimes sealer work, most of the time not, and they cause more problems later. Dye is OK, but no sealer. Read the label closely.
Ok, I think I covered just about everything on doing it the correct way.
NOW: The "down and dirty" way. Dump the charge, if there is a leak fix it. Add 6-8 onces of PAG 46 oil into the hose, pull a vacuum, and recharge with R134a. It might work, and it might not.
If I overlooked anything, and/or there are questions, ask. But I will not respond to "I used R-xxxx and it worked fine". I have about 6 or 7 different refrigerants in stock, but they are for different applications, not auto A/C, even though some will sort of work.
Good to know Charlie. Info from a pro is good to hear. I am guilty of putting in what ever and getting the system to cool again. I have even added R134 to a partial charged R12 system with good results. (Shame on me) I was around when R12 started to go away. There were so many shops that were told that most components in the system had to be replaced because of incompatibility. Techs began to experiment with R134 and not replacing components and got good results. Most of the R12/R134 switch is all about patent law and politics. That's another story. Keep cool! toolmanmike
Sully1190
Look. It's a Gold Duster.
Now see? That was alot of useful information. ^^ Sorry if people jumped your case starting out, but you did basically just pop in and say "You're idiots" and leave. Thanks for the post though. I'll look into it all.
Since all the coolants have a different fitting, would the Butane based coolant force me to change out fittings? Where would I get one, and how would that work? Would it be worth it?
I was never avoiding the converting because I thought it would be too difficult, I was looking for something more cost efficient ^^ Not just in parts. I had been informed that the butane based was a better coolant, and it's much cheaper to boot. Do you have experience with it in automotive applications? Or opinions on it? R134a is getting annoyingly pricey.
Charrlie_S
Well-Known Member
Sorry about that, but most times when I have tried to help people about A/C, I have gotten flamed. Like "my friends friend put propane in and it worked fine. Actually it will work. you can also put propane in your tires, but would you?
Legally, you would need to change the fittings. But even beyond that the fittings would tell a mechanic, there is something other then R-12 or R134a in the system.
Get the fittings from whoever sells you the refrigerant. If they can't supply them, wouldn't you question doing business with them?
I would never use anything but R-12 or R134a in a auto A/C. I am/was a "pro", and follow OEM and MACS (mobile air conditioning sociaty) guide lines. I always tried to do top quality work for a fair price, with a warantee.
PS: if you think R-134a is pricey, wait a couple of years, for the cars that will use R-1234yf. Projected cost is about $2,000 for a 30 lb jug.
When I started doing A/C work R-12 was 39 cents for a 16 oz can. My how times change.
LH23H2R
Well-Known Member
Thanks ,Charrlie_S , for sharing your a/c expertise with us :glasses7: .
When I first got my license (in 1989 at age 19) , R12 was still available in ~6 oz recharge cans ; and , it was dirt cheap .
As a side note : when r134a , et seq. , systems came along in the early 90's as a "safe" replacement for R12 , I remember thinking , How long is it going to be until they (the all-knowing EPA) recognise that there's some-thing "wrong" with 134 ?
Well , it only took about 10 years !
To add insult to injury , California's former Governor , Arnold Scwartzanegger [sp?] signed the (cue the dramatic music) Final Solutions Act , which only served as another reason to raise prices , raise taxes , and reign more control over the people .
Thanks to that *** bag , there's a $10 "core" charge on A/C recharge cans here in Ca !!
But , I divulge ...
Thanks again for the lesson , Charrlie !
When I first got my license (in 1989 at age 19) , R12 was still available in ~6 oz recharge cans ; and , it was dirt cheap .
As a side note : when r134a , et seq. , systems came along in the early 90's as a "safe" replacement for R12 , I remember thinking , How long is it going to be until they (the all-knowing EPA) recognise that there's some-thing "wrong" with 134 ?
Well , it only took about 10 years !
To add insult to injury , California's former Governor , Arnold Scwartzanegger [sp?] signed the (cue the dramatic music) Final Solutions Act , which only served as another reason to raise prices , raise taxes , and reign more control over the people .
Thanks to that *** bag , there's a $10 "core" charge on A/C recharge cans here in Ca !!
But , I divulge ...
Thanks again for the lesson , Charrlie !
Charrlie_S
Well-Known Member
Need to make a correction/addition to my post.
When using the RV-2 compressor, it is necessary to remove the compressor and drain the old oil. This compressor has an oil sump. When the oil is drained, add the correct amount of Ester oil, it works better then PAG oil in these compressors.
When using the RV-2 compressor, it is necessary to remove the compressor and drain the old oil. This compressor has an oil sump. When the oil is drained, add the correct amount of Ester oil, it works better then PAG oil in these compressors.
BillGrissom
Well-Known Member
The hydrocarbon mixtures (butane) use the same fittings as R-134A. You can buy adapters from R-12 to R-134A at any auto parts store. With HC, you can put it directly into a Mopar RV-2 compressor system. No need to drain the oil or change seals. It will work as well as Freon (slightly better).
Disclaimers:
Officially, you are supposed to first convert from R-12 to R-134A, before converting to HC. The EPA website has a bizarre explanation why, along with fears of fires and explosions from using HC, though I have read of no documented case. Since R-134A is now bad, their strange path makes even less sense.
HC is flammable. R-134A is flammable and poisonous. You can read much about this topic in a search. AC Techs have been trained to bad-mouth HC refrigerant, so you will find much discounting it. As time passes, it seems smarter than ever, and it is in use in Europe in home refrigerators.
66SBARRACUDA
MOPAR OR NO CAR
And so is my son!!! Read my post and try to tell me its wrong!!!! I KNOW HE IS RIGHT !!!! The only thing that was wrong with is the dupont patent was up!!!!!! the 134A is a lot more dangerous to the ozone than R12
Charrlie_S
Well-Known Member
The only thing I see wrong with your original post, is you didn't say the oil was changed to either PAG, or Ester, which should be done.
I did not single out any particular post as being wrong, I just stated there was a lot of wrong info in the thread.
PS: 134a is NOT more dangerous to the ozone layer then R-12. R-134a has a smaller ozone depletion potential, but it has a greater global warming potential, if you believe that stuff. Maybe yes, maybe no, that is for a different discussion.
Charrlie_S
Well-Known Member
Patents for R-12 ran out in the 1950's
See this link.
http://www.imcool.com/articles/aircondition/refrigerant_history.htm
You can clench your little fists & run in circles. Jump up & down. Wear a tinfoil hat. Type in all caps. Whatever. None of that will make your statement true.
The so called "patent" on R12 is an urban legend. As far back as 1951, there were other manufacturers of R12. Allied Chemical applied for the "Genetron" trademark in 1951. They continued to manufacture R12 for many years under that name. There were at least 4 major chemical companies slugging it out for market share in the 1960's - all of them making R12
There is no conspiracy by refrigerant manufacturers. This was driven by the eco-mafia and the EPA.
B.
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure I'm too concerned about all the hand wringing behind flammable refrigerants
Any of the traditional freon based stuff (R-12, 22, 502, etc) become UNBELIEVABLY poisonous (phosgene) if run through a flame, so if you are "somewhere" that there is a fire, and trapped, you are screwed, anyhow, and if a refrigerant line breaks near a fire/ ignition source, the OIL in the refrigerant will cause one hell of a fire, to boot.
Your car already has fuel, oil, brake fluid, that will burn, along with pounds and pounds of plastic which becomes VERY toxic when burned
So 12 oz or so of propane doesn't sound all that dangerous to me.
The PROBLEM as I see it with some of these off brand concoctions is that many are backyard stews of ??? and you may not know WHAT TF you are getting, really.
Any of the traditional freon based stuff (R-12, 22, 502, etc) become UNBELIEVABLY poisonous (phosgene) if run through a flame, so if you are "somewhere" that there is a fire, and trapped, you are screwed, anyhow, and if a refrigerant line breaks near a fire/ ignition source, the OIL in the refrigerant will cause one hell of a fire, to boot.
Your car already has fuel, oil, brake fluid, that will burn, along with pounds and pounds of plastic which becomes VERY toxic when burned
So 12 oz or so of propane doesn't sound all that dangerous to me.
The PROBLEM as I see it with some of these off brand concoctions is that many are backyard stews of ??? and you may not know WHAT TF you are getting, really.
tasvalowna
Well-Known Member
i cant believe what you people are still doing in the U.S .
Its not 1975 any more you know !.Theres massive fines in Australia for "draining" R-12 . And now we have a carbon tax and the price of 134a has risen to $140 a kilo !!
Worst part is while ever this sort of stuff is going on , it wont make a single bit of difference
Australia is trying to save the world and will suffer the consequences !
ben
Its not 1975 any more you know !.Theres massive fines in Australia for "draining" R-12 . And now we have a carbon tax and the price of 134a has risen to $140 a kilo !!
Worst part is while ever this sort of stuff is going on , it wont make a single bit of difference
Australia is trying to save the world and will suffer the consequences !
ben
Charrlie_S
Well-Known Member
There are massive fines in the U.S. also. But who is going to "catch" a individual.
All legitimate shops have recovery machines, and use them. I am a non legitimate shop and have recovery equipment, that I use.
One for R-12, one for R-134a, and one for any other refrigerants, and mixed/contaminated systems. Each machine cost over $3,000.
In the US it is still legal to use R-12, but it is not legal to make it or import it. I don't have all the facts on other countries, but I would bet China doesn't care about the ozone layer, as they are a large producer of R-12 among others.
than dont buy it
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