74 Duster (318) ignition not working, not getting spark

[supersoap33]

Hey. I'm really new to working on old cars. I've had this duster for about 9 months. I bought it when it wasn't running and a had a mechanic get it going. Turns out the timing was 180 degrees out. It was running for a few months, and I would take the rotor, a plug wire and the battery with me when I was done driving it because I didn't want it getting stolen. One night, I went to put the rotor and wire and battery back in and it would turn over, but it wouldn't start. It would turn over, but it wouldn't run. Eventually the battery went dead. So then I tried that screwdriver-starter relay trick and got a huge spark and it was like something burned out. From then on, I couldn't even turn it over from the ignition. It was completely dead. So then I replaced the starter relay thinking I had fried that. Still nothing. Had a mechanic come look at it and he could get it to turn over with a handheld push button ignition switch, but the car still wasn't getting spark. He checked some terminals and the coil and the ignition control module and he said something about electricity not being here or there, I don't really know. Also, the previous owner deleted the ballast resistor and I found a few ignition control modules in the trunk that are likely burnt out due to the rewiring of things.

Bottom line is I want to get the car running myself and have no clue what's wrong with it. I'm a little burned out having just installed a clutch and motor mounts on another car, and electricity isn't my strong point. Any help or experience with this specific problem would be appreciated. The wiring harness under the hood is a ******* mess. There are ends of wires hanging around everywhere.

I'll also say that right after I bought it and was trying to get it running myself, I put on some really cheap, but new, plug wires along with new champion plugs that were gapped at .34 or whatever the manual said. The distributor also had some rust in it, so I cleaned it out and put in a new pickup coil. I also replaced the coil, the ignition control module, distributor cap and rotor. Then it still didn't run and I called the mechanic and he just did something and said that the timing was 180 degrees out and it ran like a champ, until that night that I was putting the rotor/wire/battery back in.

 

[halifaxhops]

First step is make sure the power is going to the ballast resistor. (or where it was) I would put it back in. You have a wiring diagram and a FSM?

 

[Joey4speed]

The "Balllast resistor" Halifaxhops is referring to looks like this, and would be mounted on the firewall:

Older cars in many ways are simpler to figure out, it can get tricky if things were changed or modified. There's very knowledgeable members here that can walk you through the diagnosing.
To avoid confusion, use the term, "cranks" but "No start".
("Turn over" usually means that the engine cranks and runs like normal).
FSM = Factory Service Manual, can download it from "MyMopar".

 

[Mattax]

This is how the start sequence works.
The schematic shows a points igniton but starting works pretty much the same way.

Before starting no current is flowing out of the battery.
When the key is turned to start current flows through the key switch to the starter relay, through the neutral safety switch and back to the battery negative.
Whenever the distributor points are closed current flows through the coil and back to battery negative.

As soon as the relay closes this would have let the power from the battery go to the starter's solenoid.

Jumping the battery feed A1A to the solenoid post (wire S5) on the relay is used if the relay is not connecting them internally.

Then the starter will connect and draw power.

The starter draws a lot of power.
The first thing you must do is bring the battery up to full charge using a charger. Charge slow is usually best.
The battery voltage will get pulled down during starting. But if it drops to 9 V or below it probably won't cut it.

On a points ignition the ballast resistor does nothing during start. Because battery voltage is already low during start, current is directed around the resistor.

The electronic ignition is a little more complicated during start. The ECU needs power to amplify the signal from the magnetic pickup. The original ECUs needed current regulation. The second ballast resistor served that function when the engine was running (key in run). Later Chrysler ECUs and most replacements don't need the second resistor and only have four wires.

If your car is using the original set up. One resistor should measure 5 Ohms, the other 0.5 Ohms.

I don't think the 5 ohm resistor is used during start. However the power to run the ECU has to go through the .5 ohm resistor. That's how I understand it.

 

[Eric Dreisbach]

Hey. I'm really new to working on old cars. I've had this duster for about 9 months. I bought it when it wasn't running and a had a mechanic get it going. Turns out the timing was 180 degrees out. It was running for a few months, and I would take the rotor, a plug wire and the battery with me when I was done driving it because I didn't want it getting stolen. One night, I went to put the rotor and wire and battery back in and it would turn over, but it wouldn't start. It would turn over, but it wouldn't run. Eventually the battery went dead. So then I tried that screwdriver-starter relay trick and got a huge spark and it was like something burned out. From then on, I couldn't even turn it over from the ignition. It was completely dead. So then I replaced the starter relay thinking I had fried that. Still nothing. Had a mechanic come look at it and he could get it to turn over with a handheld push button ignition switch, but the car still wasn't getting spark. He checked some terminals and the coil and the ignition control module and he said something about electricity not being here or there, I don't really know. Also, the previous owner deleted the ballast resistor and I found a few ignition control modules in the trunk that are likely burnt out due to the rewiring of things.

Bottom line is I want to get the car running myself and have no clue what's wrong with it. I'm a little burned out having just installed a clutch and motor mounts on another car, and electricity isn't my strong point. Any help or experience with this specific problem would be appreciated. The wiring harness under the hood is a ******* mess. There are ends of wires hanging around everywhere.

I'll also say that right after I bought it and was trying to get it running myself, I put on some really cheap, but new, plug wires along with new champion plugs that were gapped at .34 or whatever the manual said. The distributor also had some rust in it, so I cleaned it out and put in a new pickup coil. I also replaced the coil, the ignition control module, distributor cap and rotor. Then it still didn't run and I called the mechanic and he just did something and said that the timing was 180 degrees out and it ran like a champ, until that night that I was putting the rotor/wire/battery back in.

View attachment 1715694419

If the balist resistor is jumped out the coil will fail the coil receives battery voltage while cranking only and drops to 5 volts when key goes to run position go to a parts store pick up a 15$ volt meter test coil with wires disconnected put meter on ohms or upside down horseshoe pos to neg on screws 1.8 to 1.6 ohms either screw post to coil wire 18 to 20000 ohms resistor must be rewired as constant 12 volts will overheat and kill the coil good luck

 

[supersoap33]

If the balist resistor is jumped out the coil will fail the coil receives battery voltage while cranking only and drops to 5 volts when key goes to run position go to a parts store pick up a 15$ volt meter test coil with wires disconnected put meter on ohms or upside down horseshoe pos to neg on screws 1.8 to 1.6 ohms either screw post to coil wire 18 to 20000 ohms resistor must be rewired as constant 12 volts will overheat and kill the coil good luck

Okay. Haven't gotten that deep into anything yet, but wanted to share some pics in case ya'll see something immediately out of whack. I noticed a lose wire around the back of the motor near the distributor. This is exactly how the engine was left when I stopped trying to get it running a few months back.

And to clarify and use the right terminology, the car would crank when the mechanic hooked up his handheld push starter, but it would not turn over. And when I try to crank the car from the ignition inside the car, nothing happens. When it was running, nothing on the dash was working including the speedometer. It doesn't even register what gear I'm in (D, R, D3, etc.). The car was a theft recovery, so the column is pretty jacked up. I did order a new key/ignition from rock auto, but I haven't installed it yet, let along even broke into the column.

Wanted to thank you all for your suggestions so far. Hopefully, with your help, we can get this thing running again.

 

[supersoap33]

Okay. Haven't gotten that deep into anything yet, but wanted to share some pics in case ya'll see something immediately out of whack. I noticed a lose wire around the back of the motor near the distributor. This is exactly how the engine was left when I stopped trying to get it running a few months back.

And to clarify and use the right terminology, the car would crank when the mechanic hooked up his handheld push starter, but it would not turn over. And when I try to crank the car from the ignition inside the car, nothing happens. When it was running, nothing on the dash was working including the speedometer. It doesn't even register what gear I'm in (D, R, D3, etc.). The car was a theft recovery, so the column is pretty jacked up. I did order a new key/ignition from rock auto, but I haven't installed it yet, let along even broke into the column.

Wanted to thank you all for your suggestions so far. Hopefully, with your help, we can get this thing running again.

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Also wanted to add a pic of how the column is rigged up at the moment. I was working like this when it was running. I don't know if the column itself is salvageable, and have found replacements, just haven't pursued getting one and replacing it as of yet.

 

[72bluNblu]

Mattax covered pretty much everything, and you definitely have a bunch of stuff to check. Those butt-crimp connectors are terrible, by the way. And that column and ignition is a disaster!!!

All of that said, since your car is a '74 you have another thing to check that isn't on any other year. There's a seat belt interlock circuit that would keep the car from starting if the seat belt isn't buckled when someone is sitting in the seats. If you car started before without the seat belt buckled while you were sitting in it then it probably has been disconnected at the sensor below the seat, pretty much all of them were.

But, you still have the relay on the inner fender. If the relay fails, it will still keep the car from starting even with the sensors on the seats unhooked. The white arrow is the relay, the small red arrow points to a reset button on the relay. You can try resetting the relay, and see if anything happens. Eventually, you will probably need to bypass that relay entirely. I had to on my '74. I can get back to you with what wires in that red connector need to be hooked up to bypass the seat belt relay.

 

[Mattax]

Thanks. Especially for adding the info about the seatbelt interlock.

I only have a couple suggestions. Mostly so you don't melt or burn things. But also so you figure out what is going on.
1. Secure the ignition switch and add a start button.
..Hanging them by a stiff bracket from the dash is probably the easiest way to do it.
2. Get rid of that wing nut on the starter relay stud. Put on a regular hex nut. Do it with the battery disconnected. That junction is direct from the battery. Accidently ground that post with the screw driver or anything else metal and as you've already had a glimpse of - the battery can become an arc welder.
3. Someone has already said there must be a ballast resistor and they are correct. Take an multi-meter and check for resistance between the two posts on the coil. Even if its still connected, it won't be sooner than later if running without the ballast resistor. (Looks like a recent ECU. If so then only the .5 ohm resistor is needed.)
4. You'll need some tools and supplies. Multi-meter, Wire stripper, an open barrel crimper, heat shrink tubing, some packard 56 and/or 58 terminals, and some open barrel splice connectors. For wire in the engine compartment see if there is marine supply in the area that sells wire by the foot. On this side of the country the big stores have many colors to choose from in the typical range of wire sizes.

ps. Clean the needles out of there. That plus oil and grease will get nice fire going if a wire overheats or there's a good spark show. But cleaning will also make it easier to work well and get good connections.

 

[cudamark]

Regardless of your current problem, if you plan on owning this car for any amount of time, do yourself a favor and get a new engine/front end harness, a new ignition switch, lock cylinder, and whatever the column needs to get back to a stock and undamaged condition. Without much electrical experience, you're going to have a terrible time figuring out that mess you currently have.

 

[Jim Lusk]

First thing to check on a no crank with the key situation is the fusible link. It is a simple circuit as stated above. Also, I can see that all safety interlocks are out of the circuit due to the ground wire from the relay to the mounting bolt.

Before proceeding further I would also suggest gaining some more knowledge on the electrical systems in these cars. They aren't complicated, but the diagrams can look like a mess of spaghetti if you haven't learned about them first.

 

[67Dart273]

SEE THIS THING RIGHT HERE? The relay looking device mounted on the apron

The button sticking out under the blue wire is the "reset" button for the seat belt interlock

EDIT.............forgot, LOL to mention this STOPS the STARTER from working when it is tripped.........

HOW TO FIX IT permanently:

There are two "yellowish" wires going to that connector. Permanently splice them together and the reset device will be "gone"

 

[H22A4]

The advice given in this thread is great.

My head starts to hurt looking at that wiring ‘job’.

 

[supersoap33]

First step is make sure the power is going to the ballast resistor. (or where it was) I would put it back in. You have a wiring diagram and a FSM?

I have 2 brand new ballast resistors and would love to put one back into the circuit, which is why I took this picture. I need to know if this is where it goes. I have a Haynes manual for my 318 complete with wiring diagrams, which I guess I'm going to have to learn how to read.

 

[supersoap33]

The advice given in this thread is great.

My head starts to hurt looking at that wiring ‘job’.

My head hurts too. To answer someone else's question, I'm not going to buy a new harness for this thing yet. I'd love to rewire the whole thing, but my budget is already non existent.

 

[supersoap33]

First thing to check on a no crank with the key situation is the fusible link. It is a simple circuit as stated above. Also, I can see that all safety interlocks are out of the circuit due to the ground wire from the relay to the mounting bolt.

Before proceeding further I would also suggest gaining some more knowledge on the electrical systems in these cars. They aren't complicated, but the diagrams can look like a mess of spaghetti if you haven't learned about them first.

I have a Haynes manual and just looking at the diagrams makes me want to quit. I don't understand electricity and I don't like engineers.

So I don't need to worry about any interlock stuff? That's good. I was cleaning out the cabin today and noticed that there were wiring harnesses going to either seatbelt buckle. Both harnesses were pulled and loose and not connected to anything, so I suppose that's not an issue either. I was driving it without a seatbelt on when it was running.

Also, the column shifter is going from park to drive to reverse without needing to step on the brake or having the car in the ON position. I'm assuming it's not supposed to do this under normal circumstances?

 

[supersoap33]

SEE THIS THING RIGHT HERE? The relay looking device mounted on the apron

View attachment 1715694861

The button sticking out under the blue wire is the "reset" button for the seat belt interlock

EDIT.............forgot, LOL to mention this STOPS the STARTER from working when it is tripped.........

HOW TO FIX IT permanently:

There are two "yellowish" wires going to that connector. Permanently splice them together and the reset device will be "gone"

So should I hit the reset and just try starting it again or will the starter not function ever again? Sorry. Not really clear on this. I don't want to cause myself more headache.

 

[supersoap33]

Hey. I'm really new to working on old cars. I've had this duster for about 9 months. I bought it when it wasn't running and a had a mechanic get it going. Turns out the timing was 180 degrees out. It was running for a few months, and I would take the rotor, a plug wire and the battery with me when I was done driving it because I didn't want it getting stolen. One night, I went to put the rotor and wire and battery back in and it would turn over, but it wouldn't start. It would turn over, but it wouldn't run. Eventually the battery went dead. So then I tried that screwdriver-starter relay trick and got a huge spark and it was like something burned out. From then on, I couldn't even turn it over from the ignition. It was completely dead. So then I replaced the starter relay thinking I had fried that. Still nothing. Had a mechanic come look at it and he could get it to turn over with a handheld push button ignition switch, but the car still wasn't getting spark. He checked some terminals and the coil and the ignition control module and he said something about electricity not being here or there, I don't really know. Also, the previous owner deleted the ballast resistor and I found a few ignition control modules in the trunk that are likely burnt out due to the rewiring of things.

Bottom line is I want to get the car running myself and have no clue what's wrong with it. I'm a little burned out having just installed a clutch and motor mounts on another car, and electricity isn't my strong point. Any help or experience with this specific problem would be appreciated. The wiring harness under the hood is a ******* mess. There are ends of wires hanging around everywhere.

I'll also say that right after I bought it and was trying to get it running myself, I put on some really cheap, but new, plug wires along with new champion plugs that were gapped at .34 or whatever the manual said. The distributor also had some rust in it, so I cleaned it out and put in a new pickup coil. I also replaced the coil, the ignition control module, distributor cap and rotor. Then it still didn't run and I called the mechanic and he just did something and said that the timing was 180 degrees out and it ran like a champ, until that night that I was putting the rotor/wire/battery back in.

View attachment 1715694419

Here are some more photos, some specifically of my column with the steering wheel off. Can I just unbolt these or do I need a steering wheel puller? I think I'm just going to need a new column that's out of a parts car. This thing is probably ****. I'm trying not to spend any money. I have a locking cylinder for the column. That isn't the same as the ignition though is it?

 

[72bluNblu]

So should I hit the reset and just try starting it again or will the starter not function ever again? Sorry. Not really clear on this. I don't want to cause myself more headache.

Hit the reset. If the relay still works hitting the reset won’t hurt it, and if somehow it’s the seat belt relay causing your issue the car may start after that.

If the relay is totally fried, you’ll still have to bypass it. But hitting the reset button won’t hurt anything either.

I really kinda doubt that the seat belt relay/interlock is your issue a though. But it’s worth a shot.

 

[supersoap33]

Hit the reset. If the relay still works hitting the reset won’t hurt it, and if somehow it’s the seat belt relay causing your issue the car may start after that.

If the relay is totally fried, you’ll still have to bypass it. But hitting the reset button won’t hurt anything either.

I really kinda doubt that the seat belt relay/interlock is your issue a though. But it’s worth a shot.

Can you or someone else send me some good pics of where the ballast resistor is mounted (and should be mounted from the factory) so I can mount mine and go ahead and ripping things apart and hopefully getting it wired back into the circuit?

 

[cudamark]

That column is pretty bad looking. I'd replace it if you can. I believe the interchange is '74-6. Next time you try to start it with the key, put your foot on the brake and wiggle the shifter with the key in the start position. Also try it in neutral and with a wiggle too if necessary. Shift linkage and/or neutral safety switch might be out of whack.

 

[72bluNblu]

Can you or someone else send me some good pics of where the ballast resistor is mounted (and should be mounted from the factory) so I can mount mine and go ahead and ripping things apart and hopefully getting it wired back into the circuit?

The ballast resistor should be where your ignition box is currently mounted. The ignition box should be on the inner fender.

Here's another members '74, @Dart WR

 

[Bewy]

Don't think this has been mentioned. The grd return for the heavy coil current is through the ign box metal frame. The box needs to have a secure, clean grd connection.

 

[supersoap33]

The ballast resistor should be where your ignition box is currently mounted. The ignition box should be on the inner fender.

Here's another members '74, @Dart WR

View attachment 1715695153

Thanks for the pic. I'll remount the ignition control module then see if there is a hole behind it where I can mount the ballast resistor.

And to the other post, yes... I'll make sure to wire wheel all the paint off of the fender behind where the ignition control box will go to make sure it has a good ground.

Does anyone have a closer picture detailing the wiring harness around that corner area on the driver's side near the firewall? It would be nice to have a pic of the wires as they are so I can know what needs to go where in terms of wiring the ballast resistor back into the circuit.

 

[RustyRatRod]

Oh my God.