I absolutely DETEST differing valve stem heights. It's something a cave man could get right. It's so easy. That's one thing that will make me never go back to a machine shop. It's so stupid simple to get right.
Aftermarket cylinder head debate - who's the best
- Thread starter MObarracuda
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I found it hard to believe a Mopar machine shop couldn't get that right.
I did check the installed valve spring heights and the exhausts are .005" too short without shims. I still need to get the correct shims for the intakes side. I know where I won't be shopping again... Ready to run, yea right.
.005" too short. .005" TOO SHORT!! Oh my God......how much difference in valve spring pressure was that? I hope it won't destroy the engine!
roccodart440
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by ProPower engines » Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:00 pmDepending on how much difference you have in the installed heights you can machine the spring seats slightly deeper. That way you can be right on the amount needed using std. thickness shims.
If you are within .005 installed height I would bet the springs will test correctly but to be perfect machine the spring seats the amount needed to use a shim to get it right on. As you mentioned you are short .005 installed height as you mentioned so drop the spring .010 and use a .015 shim.
ir3333
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here's my two cents.
At your power goals any head will be fine and stock iron is probably best.
More important for your build is picking the correct cam.
At your power goals any head will be fine and stock iron is probably best.
More important for your build is picking the correct cam.
That measurement doesn't bother me, I'll be running it like that. The intake side needs a .020" shim to get the installed height correct.
The part that bothers me is the .025" difference in valve stem length.
Would you let a head you were selling slide like that or would you have equalized them?
With a higher flowing aftermarket head he could use a smaller cam then needed with stock heads and still meet his goal if not exceed them.
I agree that any head will reach his goal with the proper cam to match it however.
Depending on how much difference you have in the installed heights you can machine the spring seats slightly deeper. That way you can be right on the amount needed using std. thickness shims.
If you are within .005 installed height I would bet the springs will test correctly but to be perfect machine the spring seats the amount needed to use a shim to get it right on. As you mentioned you are short .005 installed height as you mentioned so drop the spring .010 and use a .015 shim.
Don't you mean drop the spring seat .015" and use a .010 shim???
Hard to compare shops to one and another. Different philosophies exist. In our shop I do all the gasoline cylinder head and engine assemblies. All the valve jobs, no one else. We are not doing a lot of work any more because of what we charge. We have to because of the time spent in what we do.
It's like this. When I worked a mine here in Idaho I did all the special project designs and fabrications in the welding shop. One day a supervisor came to me with a project and said, "It's just a rock roller for our access road work, it doesn't have to be a 'piano'."
My response to him, "Then why did you come to the piano maker?"
Every engine built in the shop is treated as a race engine and gets the same care. If they want a cheapo stock engine, they need to buy some junk from somebody else, because, everything here is going to be expensive. Even the stock engines.
I don't know what you paid for your head assembly, but no, here out of our shop, the valve tips would be level.
A true story. Many years ago my father worked at a shop that did land speed record attempts at Bonneville. He was doing some cylinder head work when the owner/driver came by and asked how it was going.
Dad told him he still had to level the valve tips and the owner said, "They'll be okay as they are."
Dad said, "No, I need to correct them."
The owner went over to bench and picked up a 9" angle grinder and ran it across all the valve tips and said, "There! Now they are all even!" and stomped away.
Just having a bad day? Hard to say.
Now my valve tips......skipping ahead a few steps......I set all the installed heights, equal, + or - .001" (not necessarily to the desired finished height, but equal) when doing the valve job. I use one intake and one exhaust valve to do all the seats using the same retainer and locks. Then make combustion chamber corrections around the valve seats if necessary. Even after setting them as I did, when I go to install the valves, I find sometimes .010" difference in installed heights because of the differences in valves, retainers and locks. So I have to start juggling valves, retainers and locks to close up the differences. Then, when that is accomplished, I have to balance the valve tip lengths. Then the valves are marked with a felt pen and kept to the cylinder they were fitted to. (Never use a metal stamp to mark the valve location, it warps the valves!) If done the way I do it, I find valve tip grinding is kept to a very minimum. Because, I think valve tip grinding should be kept to very small amounts.
I'm sure I paid for your quality work, I've had these for a year now and haven't build the engine yet. After buying them I found out I made the wrong choice in where I got them from. They didn't want to do anything about it, that told me all I needed to know.
Your price was right their pricewise and I'm sure you would have done them right. It was an expensive mistake, now I know better, it was a lesson learned the hard way.
That's all have to say about them.... Live and learn.
moper
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That's what this all comes down to. One will spend carefully if one wants quality. If one doesn't, one won't. New doesn't mean good, and nothing is ready to run if your goal is high(er) performance.
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Very interesting and useful information as I am about to embark on a 360 build myself.
Thanks to the original poster for putting this up, and for everyone chiming in.
Thanks to the original poster for putting this up, and for everyone chiming in.
Brians heads are ready to go and come with ARP bolts and SCE intake gaskets. Also better springs than some of the other alternatives and set up for whatever you plan to use for a camshaft. No roller rocker interference either.
The ede's don't come with head bolts, no intake gaskets and most likely need to be gone through which adds $.
For 375hp, there are so many options it's not funny. It's not hard to get a 340-360 to that power level with a half way decent head including home cleaned up/pocket porting/intake opening factory iron!
Pick your parts, pay your money.
The ede's don't come with head bolts, no intake gaskets and most likely need to be gone through which adds $.
For 375hp, there are so many options it's not funny. It's not hard to get a 340-360 to that power level with a half way decent head including home cleaned up/pocket porting/intake opening factory iron!
Pick your parts, pay your money.
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Lustle
Well-Known Member
As others have mentioned. That figure is easily achievable with stock heads (even the small valve) without any work. I've got J heads on my 340. With nothing more than some cleanup work, work on the turn and a good valve job. And I make about 420 horse. There's a local headshop/raceshop that can do all out porting, cleanup, valve work, etc. For about 1000. That should get me in the 260+ CFM flow area. Good enough for 550 (potentially more) horsepower. If I want it in the future.
As nice as edelbrock or indy or whoever elses heads are. If you wanna hit your budget and power. I would look at stock style heads.
omahamoparguy
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tough question but in the end I think the eddy's is the best "all around" choice. Best bang for the buck would be some ported j heads.
omahamoparguy
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sweet....wish I could afford the W-2 setup. Does ma mopar still sell the large-port commando heads? I know tthey require the offset rockers also. still a bit pricey for those too.
harrisonm
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I agree. My 340 is 375 HP with stock 340 heads, Comp XE268 cam, Eddy Air gap, and Eddy Thunder carb. You don't need a good set of high flowing Aluminum heads, to reach your power goals. I didn't and my car runs great. Just make sure you have 2.02 intakes.
Sang this song a lot. Never heard that he end of how junky and worthless OE iron is and ONLY a Edelbrock head should be though of to use.
Agreed. OE irons are cfm limited, stock or ported, but can still be affordable and produce!
PM coming.....
Best of luck with the endeavor!
Lustle
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I hear it all the time. "Why don't you run aluminum heads". Usually from guys who's car is slower than mine. I'm going to be doing headwork/solid roller cam upgrade this winter I think. I want 475 horse. But I would be happy with 500. And apparently it's not hard. Got a buddy who redid a 360, iron heads, good compression, solid roller, put down 430 at the tires. That's at least 500 at the crank in my book.
I'm also tempted to build a "max effort" all iron small block. Stock block. Stock heads. Pump gas only. See whats the most you can pull out of it. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if you could hit 600 horse on stock stuff with the right amount of work and forethought. It'll just take a little more work.
MObarracuda
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Infound this blog last night and I think it has some relevance to this thread. I can't confirm the information found on this blog page but is was informative to see the writer list all of the types of SB cylinder heads that are available past and present.
Moparts on the Web - Main Index
The writer likes eldelbrock for modest builds and modified W-2 for performance
Applications.
Moparts on the Web - Main Index
The writer likes eldelbrock for modest builds and modified W-2 for performance
Applications.
I agree with that statement a lot. Edelbrock heads can and do perform very well at the track. A few have run into the 9's with Edelbrock heads. Recent (relative) porting tech has the head doing extremely well for it's design and intended useage, a replacement head. The heads flow rates and more importantly the flow area under curve is very good.
Currently, I think you would do a W2 only for a iron head rule in racing or because you WANT to do a W2 head. The W2 draw backs are;
Heavy weight
Expensive rocker arms
The metal itself (iron) can be octane limiting.
And to a lesser degree;
Only 1 dual plane available
Limited intake selection, Victor or M1 single or if you hunt E-bay or racing junk, an M1 tunnel ram, Holley's Pro Dominator tunnel ram, Street and/or Strip Dominator intakes.
Dispite these "Problems?" The head is very good. From the head porters I have spoken to about the head and it's abilities on flowing air, the reports are very favorable but come with the above cautions on cost. But not any denials on there ability to make power.
I'm going to go forward on my W2's (at a later date) I was lucky in obtaining them from Mancini at close out prices making them a viable and cost effective option to chase. Once you start weighing everything out carefully, it is doable. But only if there obtained cheaply since the valve train is so expensive over standard or offset LA head gear.
Currently, I think you would do a W2 only for a iron head rule in racing or because you WANT to do a W2 head. The W2 draw backs are;
Heavy weight
Expensive rocker arms
The metal itself (iron) can be octane limiting.
And to a lesser degree;
Only 1 dual plane available
Limited intake selection, Victor or M1 single or if you hunt E-bay or racing junk, an M1 tunnel ram, Holley's Pro Dominator tunnel ram, Street and/or Strip Dominator intakes.
Dispite these "Problems?" The head is very good. From the head porters I have spoken to about the head and it's abilities on flowing air, the reports are very favorable but come with the above cautions on cost. But not any denials on there ability to make power.
I'm going to go forward on my W2's (at a later date) I was lucky in obtaining them from Mancini at close out prices making them a viable and cost effective option to chase. Once you start weighing everything out carefully, it is doable. But only if there obtained cheaply since the valve train is so expensive over standard or offset LA head gear.
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