Aligned into oblivion

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I don't know much about front end parts so thanks for all the helpful information. I'm gonna have a conversation with the shop owner and find out the specs it was aligned to. If he can assure me he can deliver a quality job for free he may see the car again. I just don't want anything to come apart at speed. All this was just because it was wandering, not sloppy, probably should have just left it alone.
 
Found the invoice on the wheels. Specialty wheel MRYSC147 14" on the front 4.25" back space.
 
I didn't see anyone post this, i saved it from a recent post, I believe it is specs preferred for radial tires on car the were not equipped with them. Someone else will probably verify exactly what it is. Good luck.

Screenshot_2018-04-24-16-50-31.png
 
Camber is a wear angle granny would peal the tires off !:)
 
Those hammer marks on the upper control arm lip?
Someone didnt know they threaded in.
The weld is a little bigger than i would have done,but thats my opinion. Only way it could rub is if its installed crooked.
 
Its where the rim rubbed the metal away on the control arm and the ball joint edge. Its a 16 mile trip home from the shop. I've since made a spacer for the trip to the shop. Owner agreed to take a look and see what he could do. Appointment tomorrow.
 
Check the rim, My buddy's kid did his front pads and left the caliper bolt loose and it fell out, the caliper rubbed the rim and the tire went flat, the caliper cut into the rim and through it about 1/4 way around it. I would demand a new rim if it was there fault.
 
69conv said:
Found the invoice on the wheels. Specialty wheel MRYSC147 14" on the front 4.25" back space.
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A 14x7 with a 4.25" backspace shouldn't be rubbing that badly on the ball joints. That's a little more backspace than what you would normally see on a 14 SBP drum brake wheel, but not a ton. And that wasn't a minor rub, that was hitting pretty significantly.

69conv said:
Its where the rim rubbed the metal away on the control arm and the ball joint edge. Its a 16 mile trip home from the shop. I've since made a spacer for the trip to the shop. Owner agreed to take a look and see what he could do. Appointment tomorrow.
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I'd be VERY cautious about what I let that shop do to my car. And you should really inspect that rim too before you drive too far on it. Depending on where it was rubbing on the rim it could have damaged the structural integrity. If it was rubbing on a shoulder/corner of the rim and wore that down, the lip could come off the rim if it was ground down as much as that ball joint is.

Biff said:
Camber is a wear angle granny would peal the tires off !:)
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-.25 degrees of camber isn't going to wear anything. Camber is a wearing angle, but not until you go past about 1* in either direction. A negative 1/4 of a degree is a very conservative alignment for a radial tire that won't wear a thing.
 
69conv said:
Its where the rim rubbed the metal away on the control arm and the ball joint edge. Its a 16 mile trip home from the shop. I've since made a spacer for the trip to the shop. Owner agreed to take a look and see what he could do. Appointment tomorrow.
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Do they have the old ball joint at the shop? It may have been ground down to clear the wheel by the previous owner. Did they rotate the wheels while it was there? The back wheels may have a different offset... I don’t think this will be to difficult for shop to figure out, I don’t see how that ball joint could be installed much differently unless it is not screwed in all the way.
 
we’ve had stupid stuff happen at our shop. Nobody’s perfect. It’s how it’s handled that separates the good shops from the bad.
“You need a spacer” isn’t a good sign.
I’d call your local Napa store and ask them who’s the best.
 
skep419 said:
we’ve had stupid stuff happen at our shop. Nobody’s perfect. It’s how it’s handled that separates the good shops from the bad.
“You need a spacer” isn’t a good sign.
I’d call your local Napa store and ask them who’s the best.
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Everyone makes mistakes, that's true, I know I've made my share.

But, even after they identified that he needed a spacer, they let him drive home with the rim rubbing on the ball joint. That's not just a mistake, that's a recipe for a catastrophe. They shouldn't have let it out of the shop without a spacer to get the right clearance. I mean, maybe if they made the customer swear not to drive it and they loaded it onto a trailer. But to let the guy drive home with that, when they knew it was a problem? What if the ball joint carved out the rim until the lip came off and the guy ended up in the ditch? That's a steel rim, it's not like the hoop is a 1/2" thick, he carved more material out of the ball joint shoulder than there is thickness to the outer hoop in a lot of places. That's way beyond a mistake.

They knew it wasn't right, and sent him out to drive on it anyway. That's straight up negligent. Or completely incompetent.
 
72bluNblu said:
A 14x7 with a 4.25" backspace shouldn't be rubbing that badly on the ball joints. That's a little more backspace than what you would normally see on a 14 SBP drum brake wheel, but not a ton. And that wasn't a minor rub, that was hitting pretty significantly.



I'd be VERY cautious about what I let that shop do to my car. And you should really inspect that rim too before you drive too far on it. Depending on where it was rubbing on the rim it could have damaged the structural integrity. If it was rubbing on a shoulder/corner of the rim and wore that down, the lip could come off the rim if it was ground down as much as that ball joint is.



-.25 degrees of camber isn't going to wear anything. Camber is a wearing angle, but not until you go past about 1* in either direction. A negative 1/4 of a degree is a very conservative alignment for a radial tire that won't wear a thing.
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Missed the decimal, my bad:mad:
 
Biff said:
Missed the decimal, my bad:mad:
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rule of thumb here on front end setting...the adjustment cams (x2 per each side, located on the upper a-frame where they attach to framework) can be centered in the downward facing position prior to adjustment specs being applied. This will put the caster/camber pretty close to factory specs! I have done this several times and never had an issue. Good Luck, and find a reputable shop/front end man! Also, the newer machines for alignment may require 4 wheel setup, if this is the case, then the required rear wheel initial setting will need to be addressed with the computer guided components. To do this, we had to raise the rear framework from beneath (70 Dart) remove beauty rings, then attach the alignment tool to the wheel. Once the computer got the info it needed, we returned the body to resting height and proceeded with the alignment on the fronts...
 
B'cuda said:
I didn't see anyone post this, i saved it from a recent post, I believe it is specs preferred for radial tires on car the were not equipped with them. Someone else will probably verify exactly what it is. Good luck.

View attachment 1715202370
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That's Rick Ehrenberg's chart from a Mopar Action Magazine issue a few years back.
 
Most modern alignment machines have a "thrust angle" mode that discounts any potential adjustments to the rear geometry, but aligns the fronts with, well, the thrust angle.
 
69conv said:
So I raised the torsion bars to gain ground clearance, and the front end was wandering, so I took the car to an experienced shop. My $69 alignment turned into an $800 front end rebuild. I went to pick up the car and he told me he got everything aligned, but I would need to get a spacer for the drivers side. When I got the car home I found the drivers wheel rubbed the upper ball joint, so I got a spacer for it. When I took it for a spin I discovered the passenger tire was so far forward in the wheel well it rubbed the fender. So my question is did I take it to a bunch of yahoos and I look for another shop, do I take it back and give them another crack, can I adjust something at home and enjoy the car. Whacha think?

View attachment 1715200399 View attachment 1715200400
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1st off no shop does anywork without authorization. you asked for alignment, for them to do any other work you must give permission. Your story sounds like the Old Ann Landers story where college kids send in fake story's as a joke. And Ann replies with a sob story. So being that I don't think you are that stupid to pay for repairs you didn't ask for, I believe your story is a prank or just maybe youe are......
 
joemish said:
1st off no shop does anywork without authorization. you asked for alignment, for them to do any other work you must give permission. Your story sounds like the Old Ann Landers story where college kids send in fake story's as a joke. And Ann replies with a sob story. So being that I don't think you are that stupid to pay for repairs you didn't ask for, I believe your story is a prank or just maybe youe are......
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Are stories about front end repairs now fake news in America now too?
 
joemish said:
1st off no shop does anywork without authorization. you asked for alignment, for them to do any other work you must give permission. Your story sounds like the Old Ann Landers story where college kids send in fake story's as a joke. And Ann replies with a sob story. So being that I don't think you are that stupid to pay for repairs you didn't ask for, I believe your story is a prank or just maybe youe are......
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The OP (69conv) never said that he didn't give the shop authorization to do the work. He took it in for an alignment, they told him they needed to replace the ball joint and bushings, and they did the repairs.

Even assuming that there's no issue with the work being authorized, the shop still did shoddy, unsafe work at a ridiculous price. Who changes only one ball joint? How in the hell is changing the strut rod bushings a $450 job just in labor? And then they let the car out of their shop with the wheel going metal-to-metal with the ball joint they changed?

69conv has posted pictures of both the work order and the resulting damage. The sad fact is most alignment shops out there today have NO idea how to align one of these cars, and nothing about the OP's story is all that far fetched. Unfortunate, yes, but given my own experiences at local alignment shops and some of the things I've seen people post about here there's really no reason to doubt the OP's story.
 
I took an older Imperial down to a shop to have it aligned. Figured they would know. I watched and got very concerned. I got the owners attention and he let me onto the shop floor (Midas shop). They had no clue. His lead mechanic walked away swearing at the car. I could not believe it. The owner told me they could not do anything and that there was something seriously wrong with the car. I took it back home, took a good look at it and realised what was happening. They were taking all weight off of the wheels and trying to adjust the caster/camber. It won't work because the suspension is loaded and when you loosen the nuts the front end adjustment surfaces just gets cocked out of shape and won't move. I found you have to remove some weight but not all the weight from the wheels so that the adjustment surfaces stay relatively in the same plane and will slide when you try to adjust them. A little finicky but not rocket science.
 
ruben said:
I took an older Imperial down to a shop to have it aligned. Figured they would know. I watched and got very concerned. I got the owners attention and he let me onto the shop floor (Midas shop). They had no clue. His lead mechanic walked away swearing at the car. I could not believe it. The owner told me they could not do anything and that there was something seriously wrong with the car. I took it back home, took a good look at it and realised what was happening. They were taking all weight off of the wheels and trying to adjust the caster/camber. It won't work because the suspension is loaded and when you loosen the nuts the front end adjustment surfaces just gets cocked out of shape and won't move. I found you have to remove some weight but not all the weight from the wheels so that the adjustment surfaces stay relatively in the same plane and will slide when you try to adjust them. A little finicky but not rocket science.
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You should be able to make the adjustments to the camber bolts with all of the weight on the wheels. If you can’t then you need to service the camber bolts. The weight of the car is carried almost entirely by the lower control arms.

The alignment must be set at ride height because the alignment numbers change as the control arms move. If you take weight off the wheels, you’re not at ride height anymore, and you have to roll the car to fully settle the suspension after you’ve lifted it.

With a torsion bar suspension you have to set the ride height before you have an alignment done. Not only that, but if you change the ride height you need another alignment done.
 
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