fishy68
Tyr Fryr's Inc.
PM coming your way. Thanks
Attempt to Pay Back # 2
- Thread starter spinman_1949
- Start date
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PM coming your way. Thanks
To All,
Look what I found.
http://gofastmopars.net/mopar_ignition_service.htm
Go down on the page. They have a plate that offers. 0 10 14 and 18 advance. I also found they definitely consider 34 degrees max on mechanical the target. The way you select their distributor is also interesting. No vacuum. Set initial to 30 BTDC and then tune idle to max vacuum. Also they shoe vacuum to manifold vacuum. They do not offer how much advance the vacuum offers.
Look what I found.
http://gofastmopars.net/mopar_ignition_service.htm
Go down on the page. They have a plate that offers. 0 10 14 and 18 advance. I also found they definitely consider 34 degrees max on mechanical the target. The way you select their distributor is also interesting. No vacuum. Set initial to 30 BTDC and then tune idle to max vacuum. Also they shoe vacuum to manifold vacuum. They do not offer how much advance the vacuum offers.
fishy68
Tyr Fryr's Inc.
All the Mopar Perf. distributors I've seen have a 8.5 degree (17 at the crank) advance can. While those don't say who makes them I'd assume that's the same can they use too. If I do some digging I'm sure I can find a list of vacuum can ratings and subsequent part #'s for them. If your interested let me know and I'll dig it up and post it.
The plate looks like an FBO piece
To all,
Here is the final result. I can add or remove washers to make 1 degree changes. The screw with one thick lock washer gives me my target 8 degrees. 16 at crank. I also found that the vacuum unit offers 7 degrees 14 crank. onset is 8 inches vacuum and max is at 16 inches. I will try using manifold vacuum. The old dist vacuum unit is shot. Will not hold vacuum. It does respond but I doubt it was providing a reliable constant amount of advance. I have my piston stop so I will pull the plugs and do a compression test and index the damper to confirm correct TDC. Then in goes the distributor. I am going to try the directions that dist company offered. Set timing at 30 * BTDC and set idle via vacuum. Then depending on the vaccum I have I can compare to what they offer. The only other variable will be the curve itself as I still have the original springs installed. It appears that all in at 3000 RPM is a common goal. Luckily I have a VOM with a tach so checking that along with idle rpm and amount of mechanical advance at different RPM will be easy. Especially using the dial in timing light. I believe from what has been offered and from some of the articles I have read, the goal is to achieve no mechanical advance at idle but to begin getting some as early as around 1000 RPM, but above the desired idle speed. I would like to get the out of gear idle down to 800 with a reliable in gear idle around 650. Not sure is this is realistic with the cam that is in the engine though.
I also am providing a picture of the unit installed. This shot is throught the vacuum advance opening normally occupied by the can. My point here it to offer that there is plenty of room on the top side of the plate to mount an adjustable mechanism. I will use the old dist to experiment.
Here is the final result. I can add or remove washers to make 1 degree changes. The screw with one thick lock washer gives me my target 8 degrees. 16 at crank. I also found that the vacuum unit offers 7 degrees 14 crank. onset is 8 inches vacuum and max is at 16 inches. I will try using manifold vacuum. The old dist vacuum unit is shot. Will not hold vacuum. It does respond but I doubt it was providing a reliable constant amount of advance. I have my piston stop so I will pull the plugs and do a compression test and index the damper to confirm correct TDC. Then in goes the distributor. I am going to try the directions that dist company offered. Set timing at 30 * BTDC and set idle via vacuum. Then depending on the vaccum I have I can compare to what they offer. The only other variable will be the curve itself as I still have the original springs installed. It appears that all in at 3000 RPM is a common goal. Luckily I have a VOM with a tach so checking that along with idle rpm and amount of mechanical advance at different RPM will be easy. Especially using the dial in timing light. I believe from what has been offered and from some of the articles I have read, the goal is to achieve no mechanical advance at idle but to begin getting some as early as around 1000 RPM, but above the desired idle speed. I would like to get the out of gear idle down to 800 with a reliable in gear idle around 650. Not sure is this is realistic with the cam that is in the engine though.
I also am providing a picture of the unit installed. This shot is throught the vacuum advance opening normally occupied by the can. My point here it to offer that there is plenty of room on the top side of the plate to mount an adjustable mechanism. I will use the old dist to experiment.
Update,
Distributor is in. First thing I notice is a bunch of slop. I can turn the rotor like 5 degrees!!! That can not be good. So I guessed at the timing and fired her up. Started like a charm. Idling real fast. Sure enough 40 degrees initial. So I backed it down to 30 and started tweating the idle and mixture to get the best vacuum at around 1000 RPM. Looks like around 10 " is where it ends up. Hard to tell though the vacuum needle bounces between 12 " and 8 ".
I revved it up and I am not getting as much mechanical as I expected. I suspect I need to go to lighter springs to get full advance at 3000 RPM. All in all I am pretty happy. I think the slop in the distributor drive may need some attention though.
Distributor is in. First thing I notice is a bunch of slop. I can turn the rotor like 5 degrees!!! That can not be good. So I guessed at the timing and fired her up. Started like a charm. Idling real fast. Sure enough 40 degrees initial. So I backed it down to 30 and started tweating the idle and mixture to get the best vacuum at around 1000 RPM. Looks like around 10 " is where it ends up. Hard to tell though the vacuum needle bounces between 12 " and 8 ".
I revved it up and I am not getting as much mechanical as I expected. I suspect I need to go to lighter springs to get full advance at 3000 RPM. All in all I am pretty happy. I think the slop in the distributor drive may need some attention though.
2 56
very small screw. And I think the plate is pretty hard. I had to be very careful threading it.
very small screw. And I think the plate is pretty hard. I had to be very careful threading it.
To All,
What is a reasonable drop in RPM from neutral to in gear? I am dropping like 400 RPM if not more. I suspect when it is idling at around 1100 RPM I am getting a tad of mechanical advance and vacuum advance as well. When I put it in gear the RPM's drop hard and the engine almost dies. I check the timing in neutral and it is almost 40 degrees. When I put it in gear it drops to initial or even a bit below. So I figure I need to add a light spring on the side that has the gap spring to keep the advance dead at idle on the mechanical. But I need vacuum earlier. This can does not even begin to respond until at least 9 inches. I am lucky if I get that at 1100 RPM let along 700 RPM. So the big question is where to I get a vacuum can that is adjustable. This one is not.
What is a reasonable drop in RPM from neutral to in gear? I am dropping like 400 RPM if not more. I suspect when it is idling at around 1100 RPM I am getting a tad of mechanical advance and vacuum advance as well. When I put it in gear the RPM's drop hard and the engine almost dies. I check the timing in neutral and it is almost 40 degrees. When I put it in gear it drops to initial or even a bit below. So I figure I need to add a light spring on the side that has the gap spring to keep the advance dead at idle on the mechanical. But I need vacuum earlier. This can does not even begin to respond until at least 9 inches. I am lucky if I get that at 1100 RPM let along 700 RPM. So the big question is where to I get a vacuum can that is adjustable. This one is not.
65Val
Average Length Member
30* initial??? My engine just kicks back against the starter at that setting....and then if you add manifold vacuum, you'd be up around 45* at idle!!! Can't see how that'd work.
At what RPM did it idle before this exercise? I believe the 30* timing is to try and determine which distributor to buy from that vendor. It's not a recommendation on where to set your timing.
400 is way too much drop.
My guess is it's bleeding mechanical in at the p/n rpm.
400 is way too much drop.
My guess is it's bleeding mechanical in at the p/n rpm.
Christina Lucci aka Christina Model
fishy68
Tyr Fryr's Inc.
Tom mine only drops 150 rpm, idle in neutral is 850 and it drops to 700 in gear. How loose the torque converter plays a part in it but it sounds like yours is advancing in neutral like Rob said. I tried running my vacuum advance right to manifold vacuum and it didn't work good cause at idle in neutral it had enough vacuum to hold the advance but when I dropped it in gear the vacuum was too low and timing dropped out and rpm dropped way low like yours. I always replace the factory spring with the gap too. Depending on your particular build you may want the total timing to come in quicker than 3k. Mine (a mild 408) likes it to come in real quick. If I remember right it's all in by 1800. My old engine, a 360, did best with it all in at 2500.
Did you try to insert a small allen wrench into the vacuum port on the canister to see if it is adjustable? Most aftermarket ones are. If it is you can possibly adjust it to come in quicker. It was last summer when I last shopped for a vacuum advance and at that time O'Reilley's had 3 different ones that were all adjustable and provided differing amounts of advance. I just looked on their website and can now only find one listed to fit everything and I don't see in the pics the underside of the arm which is stamped with how many degrees of advance it has and it's not a part # in my list of advance units so I'm not sure what it is. I'll be going there Tuesday and I'll look at it and if it's a good one (I consider good to be one that provides a minimal amount of advance, such as 16-18 crank degrees) I'll write the number down and put it in my list and let you know.
Did you try to insert a small allen wrench into the vacuum port on the canister to see if it is adjustable? Most aftermarket ones are. If it is you can possibly adjust it to come in quicker. It was last summer when I last shopped for a vacuum advance and at that time O'Reilley's had 3 different ones that were all adjustable and provided differing amounts of advance. I just looked on their website and can now only find one listed to fit everything and I don't see in the pics the underside of the arm which is stamped with how many degrees of advance it has and it's not a part # in my list of advance units so I'm not sure what it is. I'll be going there Tuesday and I'll look at it and if it's a good one (I consider good to be one that provides a minimal amount of advance, such as 16-18 crank degrees) I'll write the number down and put it in my list and let you know.
Latest update.
OK I have now cut mechanical to 5 degrees 10 at the crank. This allows me to run around 24 to 25 degrees initial. The cam likes it much more. Now I can get it to idle at a little under 1000 RPM and it drops to around 800 in gear. Vacuum is definitely low. Like 6 inches maybe. The needle bounces so much it is hard to tell. I was also able to get an adjustable vacuum can. It is marked 11 so likely I will have to limit it. The other thing is unless I change when it kicks in, I can not run manifold vacuum. It kicks the timing way up at idle. So I hooked to ported vacuum and the engine likes it a lot more. The car is on jacks and the master cylinder is out right now, so I have to depend on the emergency brake to hold it in gear and I can not do a stall test on the converter. Pretty sure it is the stock converter. Once I get it back on the road I will get some long vaccum hose and put a tee in the line so I can see what kind of cruise vacuum I get. Then I can fine tune the can to that. It is a lot better than it was, but the real test will be how it does on the road. Mopartech may help me do some work on the carb to help deal wth the low vacuum at idle. Something about cross drilling and power valves. Sounds like fun.
OK I have now cut mechanical to 5 degrees 10 at the crank. This allows me to run around 24 to 25 degrees initial. The cam likes it much more. Now I can get it to idle at a little under 1000 RPM and it drops to around 800 in gear. Vacuum is definitely low. Like 6 inches maybe. The needle bounces so much it is hard to tell. I was also able to get an adjustable vacuum can. It is marked 11 so likely I will have to limit it. The other thing is unless I change when it kicks in, I can not run manifold vacuum. It kicks the timing way up at idle. So I hooked to ported vacuum and the engine likes it a lot more. The car is on jacks and the master cylinder is out right now, so I have to depend on the emergency brake to hold it in gear and I can not do a stall test on the converter. Pretty sure it is the stock converter. Once I get it back on the road I will get some long vaccum hose and put a tee in the line so I can see what kind of cruise vacuum I get. Then I can fine tune the can to that. It is a lot better than it was, but the real test will be how it does on the road. Mopartech may help me do some work on the carb to help deal wth the low vacuum at idle. Something about cross drilling and power valves. Sounds like fun.
65Val
Average Length Member
A bit off the topic, but, I don't know how you guys get your engines to run (read : start) at settings like 24* initial. Mine certainly won't.
fishy68
Tyr Fryr's Inc.
It seems to be hit or miss. My old engine (a 360) wouldn't allow over 20 before it would kick back on the starter. My new engine (a 408) has much more cranking compression (180 vs. 150 on the 360) and yet I can run 24 initial with no starting woes. Same starter, battery and wiring too. Go figure.
(Why the heck does this board put up a smiley face where the number eight is supposed to be???????)
Snake
Mopar Nut
cracked, WHO is that cute little dancer? I found this one of her:
sweetttttttttttttttttttttt
65 Val
I am no expert on this as I am learning as well. But I can tell you this. I can set the timimng at 40 initial and the engine will crank and start. Now that is cold. I would imagine I would balk when it warm. It has to do with the cam. I believe there are two kinds of compression. The cam has a major effect on one. And that is the one I understand allows for the higher initial advance. I am sure the experts on this board can explain it better.
I am no expert on this as I am learning as well. But I can tell you this. I can set the timimng at 40 initial and the engine will crank and start. Now that is cold. I would imagine I would balk when it warm. It has to do with the cam. I believe there are two kinds of compression. The cam has a major effect on one. And that is the one I understand allows for the higher initial advance. I am sure the experts on this board can explain it better.
8 8 test test.
Funny I did not get the smiley face. I have seen this before.
Wait is it 408 ?
Nope o8 ?
I have no idea.
Could be because you are using num keyboard ?
Funny I did not get the smiley face. I have seen this before.
Wait is it 408 ?
Nope o8 ?
I have no idea.
Could be because you are using num keyboard ?
Bulldozer
free ice cream sandwiches
try spelling disgusting lol = d i s g u s t i n g..
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
It is some html coding thing, and is related to the parentheses signs
408 (408)
The cold for smiley is:
(photo of the coding)
Update
So I found something else I thought might add to the problem of idle. The PCV valve is connected to the brake booster port. I figured that has to be a big vacuum leak. The hose was cracked as well. So I bought new hose and routed it to the connection Holley shows as the connection for the PCV. Idle improved a bit, but the PCV port is open to manifold vacuum so not a huge issue. I do notice that when I block the valve which is doing the jig inside the idle drops. The vacuum gauge settles a bit as well. The needle still swings but not as much. So that is obviously the cam. I may try putting a restrictor in the port to reduce the PCV rate. Then try some more idle tuing. The vacuum advance has me spooked though. I think it needs to be timed port, but at idle it is nothing, but under no load it climbs quick as the thottle is opened. Much higher that manifold vacuum. I will play with both to see which is best to use. Idle in neutral is around 950 and in gear it drops to around 750. It is not smooth, but it is much better. Initial is 22 degrees and total is right at for 34 degrees. I am not sure if it full at 3000. Need to hook up my VOM with tack. The vacuum unit has a ton of advance available. 11 is marked on the arm so I figure that is 22 crank. I am going to make it adjustable as well. Working on that.
So I found something else I thought might add to the problem of idle. The PCV valve is connected to the brake booster port. I figured that has to be a big vacuum leak. The hose was cracked as well. So I bought new hose and routed it to the connection Holley shows as the connection for the PCV. Idle improved a bit, but the PCV port is open to manifold vacuum so not a huge issue. I do notice that when I block the valve which is doing the jig inside the idle drops. The vacuum gauge settles a bit as well. The needle still swings but not as much. So that is obviously the cam. I may try putting a restrictor in the port to reduce the PCV rate. Then try some more idle tuing. The vacuum advance has me spooked though. I think it needs to be timed port, but at idle it is nothing, but under no load it climbs quick as the thottle is opened. Much higher that manifold vacuum. I will play with both to see which is best to use. Idle in neutral is around 950 and in gear it drops to around 750. It is not smooth, but it is much better. Initial is 22 degrees and total is right at for 34 degrees. I am not sure if it full at 3000. Need to hook up my VOM with tack. The vacuum unit has a ton of advance available. 11 is marked on the arm so I figure that is 22 crank. I am going to make it adjustable as well. Working on that.
fishy68
Tyr Fryr's Inc.
Isn't that interesting. Wouldn't you know it, that's a popular engine size used here and it triggers a smiley face when used with parenthesis.
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