Bad Day, Very Bad day

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It's busted. Like HemiEd said, it should be longer and not twisted. Hopefully you didn't damage much.
 
dustermaniac said:
That's what I thought, the bottom of the shaft is supposed to be similar to a hex head bolt and have flat sides and not be grooved as this shaft is. I am going to order another pump and shaft (a hardened one if I can get one) and tear it open and see what transpires. I do not think I did any major damage to the engine. I shut it down pretty quickly.
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Yeah, they almost look like a large allen wrench on the last couple inches.

I hope you are right and you probably are. I would still use the paint filter on the oil, and also cut the filter open.

Back when I was racing, I would pull the pan off at least once a month, just to check side clearance on the rods. If they all moved freely from side to side, I felt I was good.
 
I had a similar issue years ago. I was at the track, engine was running rough, looked at the gauge, 0 oil pressure on the starting line!!! Still ran the car...
Found a badly bent push rod, and that lifter popped out, laying in the galley area!!! So no oil pressure... The valve guide dropped causing the valve and piston to meet at the wrong time!!!. New heads and pushrods fixed that. By the way still have that same bottom end in the car!!!!!!!

Bob
 
BobsDart said:
I had a similar issue years ago. I was at the track, engine was running rough, looked at the gauge, 0 oil pressure on the starting line!!! Still ran the car...
Found a badly bent push rod, and that lifter popped out, laying in the galley area!!! So no oil pressure... The valve guide dropped causing the valve and piston to meet at the wrong time!!!. New heads and pushrods fixed that. By the way still have that same bottom end in the car!!!!!!!

Bob
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That would be a big block, correct?

That was almost exactly what happened to me, except I didn't lose the valve guide or any of that. I think it was a bent push rod though, and like yours, the lifter was laying in the valley.

I had built a poor boy oiling system, since I couldn't afford the Milodon dual pick up system at the time. Built a stainless line coming out just below the front of the cam (it is plugged there) and went down directly to the mains, to a fitting tapped into each main cap. Flipped the main bearings over, to get the oil from the bottom, then put a small freeze plug in the passage to the top with .100 hole in it.
 
More than likely there is still the other end of the shaft still embedded in the pump. I tried to use my magnet to fish the broken piece out of the pump but no dice.
 
dustermaniac said:
More than likely there is still the other end of the shaft still embedded in the pump. I tried to use my magnet to fish the broken piece out of the pump but no dice.
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Yeah, the pan needs to come off. Big blocks have some really cool features, one being the external pump. 4 bolts, and it is in your hand!
 
Now the million dollar question.....

How easy is it to remove the oil pan with the engine in the car? Any tips or helpful hints?
I have always had the engine out when I remove the pan.

Should I invest in a hardened oil pump shaft? I can get a stock/aftermarket one off the shelf at Autozone or wait to find a hardened one?
 
make sure there is nothing clogging the pump usually they dont twist off a shaft like that there is a reason it broke make sure your pickup and all is clean. also you really dont need a hv pump unless its a race engine or its really loose
 
dustermaniac said:
Now the million dollar question.....

How easy is it to remove the oil pan with the engine in the car? Any tips or helpful hints?
I have always had the engine out when I remove the pan.

Should I invest in a hardened oil pump shaft? I can get a stock/aftermarket one off the shelf at Autozone or wait to find a hardened one?
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We did my Dart with a set of Doug's headers on, stock pan sumpped 2". It was a *****! Only to find out the engine needed to come out because the head gaskets leaked coolant... I used a Melling shaft.

Anyway, it can be done, just depends on your exhaust. Stock Pan?
 
At the least, you will need to remove the drag link, and take the motor mounts loose to jack the motor up as far as you can. Pretty easy then, should come right out. I always used some 2x4 chunks of wood, to block it up.

The only time I ever bought a killer (bronze) oil pump drive, was when I built a solid roller motor. But, if you are going to run an HV pump, I would get one. You know the definition of insanity, I am sure. But if you are going to put a standard pump back in, I wouldn't be concerned with it.
 
Tom, I don't think the shaft is broken. It looks twisted to me. Hard to tell from the picture though. I bet something has gotten into the oil pump and locked that pup down. Can you get a better shot of the end of the shaft? I wouldn't use an HV pump in anything that was under 7K RPM and also not without a hardened oil pump drive shaft. Those HV pumps can really have a lot of drag. I guess it's possible that the stock shaft got weak and gave it up, but most of the time that happens, the oil pump is locked up. It does not take much. A grain of sand can do it. Give me a shout if I can help you. You've got my number.

~Rob
 
Actually it's a small block...





HemiEd said:
That would be a big block, correct?

That was almost exactly what happened to me, except I didn't lose the valve guide or any of that. I think it was a bent push rod though, and like yours, the lifter was laying in the valley.

I had built a poor boy oiling system, since I couldn't afford the Milodon dual pick up system at the time. Built a stainless line coming out just below the front of the cam (it is plugged there) and went down directly to the mains, to a fitting tapped into each main cap. Flipped the main bearings over, to get the oil from the bottom, then put a small freeze plug in the passage to the top with .100 hole in it.
Click to expand...
 
StrokerScamp said:
Tom, I don't think the shaft is broken. It looks twisted to me. Hard to tell from the picture though. I bet something has gotten into the oil pump and locked that pup down. Can you get a better shot of the end of the shaft? I wouldn't use an HV pump in anything that was under 7K RPM and also not without a hardened oil pump drive shaft. Those HV pumps can really have a lot of drag. I guess it's possible that the stock shaft got weak and gave it up, but most of the time that happens, the oil pump is locked up. It does not take much. A grain of sand can do it. Give me a shout if I can help you. You've got my number.

~Rob
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Welcome back Rob!!!! We all missed you here!! I am going to remove the oil pump this weekend and also the pick up tube and replace both the tube, pump, and shaft. I do not want to screw around with any old parts that may be clogged or try to clean em up and reinstall not knowing that there may still be some **** in there to clog the pump again. I will be using a standard pump and ditching the HV pump.
 
Wonder if some sort of debris got in the oil pump and locked it up?? You may want to disassemble the pump when you get it out.

Oh already someone said that..
 
Late to the party again am I??? Seems a little more than coincidental that you just did a bunch of work to the engine and now you have a seized pump. I'm with Rob, it sounds like the pump is seized with some sort of debris from the break-in/recent engine work. Glad to hear that you are changing out the pump and shaft, I wouldn't try to clean or re-use any of it.

Many people think that when rebuilding an engine that you should switch to HV oil and fuel pumps, when all that is necessary is usually the standard items, especially on a mostly stock motor. How many guys out there have put in the old Carter HV fuel pump and failed to change the sending unit and line to 3/8" or larger??? You gotta remember that volume is the amount of fluid a pump can pass, but if you still have stock oil passages and fuel lines, what good is the extra volume???

Hope you get er' all back together in good time and the job is uneventful from here on out. I also doubt much harm was done, and I would run the motor as is once you repair it until something tells you otherwise!!! Good luck DM, Geof
 
Its a good idea to install the shaft early on in the build and measure its length out the bottom, from the pump mating surface. Compare that to the depth of the pump input from its mating surface.
The gear tooth design is causing downward force on the driver at all times. If there isn't a little clearance the pump will fail. As much as .100 before the shaft bottoms in the pump wont hurt anything.
We can blame some of these mis-match issues on aftermarket part sources.
Good luck with it.
 
HemiEd said:
At the least, you will need to remove the drag link, and take the motor mounts loose to jack the motor up as far as you can. Pretty easy then, should come right out. I always used some 2x4 chunks of wood, to block it up.

The only time I ever bought a killer (bronze) oil pump drive, was when I built a solid roller motor. But, if you are going to run an HV pump, I would get one. You know the definition of insanity, I am sure. But if you are going to put a standard pump back in, I wouldn't be concerned with it.
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What is meant by a killer bronze gear??? Does killer mean GOOD or Not Good. I run a bronze gear set-up Mech Cam
 
Like Ed said, drop the drag link, jack the engine up some, pull the pan, clean it really well, throw away the old pump and pickup, replace them, and replace the pump drive with a hardened tip and bevelled transition.

While the pan is off, it might not be a bad idea to pull a front cap off of one of the connecting rods and one off of #1 main to inpect the bearings and see if you did more damage than you think. It's better than throwing it back together and having problems a little down the road.
 
damnimcooltom said:
Like Ed said, drop the drag link, jack the engine up some, pull the pan, clean it really well, throw away the old pump and pickup, replace them, and replace the pump drive with a hardened tip and bevelled transition.

While the pan is off, it might not be a bad idea to pull a front cap off of one of the connecting rods and one off of #1 main to inpect the bearings and see if you did more damage than you think. It's better than throwing it back together and having problems a little down the road.
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Already planning on checking bearings.
 
Thanks for the WB, Tom. If it were me, I would go ahead and pull the engine. I mean it's what 20 or so bolts and 4 hoses and a few wire connections? It's easy as heck to make a mistake working on your back. Would be much better to access the bottom end with it on a stand upside down. At least that way, you can see everything and get right to it. Plus, if you have to go any farther (hopefully not) it will be out of the car already and you can take care of it. Just my 2 cents.
 
BUMMER......glad to see your getting it figured out though!

as for the oil pan.....you should be able to remove the drag link and undo motor mounts and raise it out of the k member far enough to pop the pan off and do the job in chassis.

I agree with the others that its probably linked to the recent upper end build you did that caused this problem.

BUT for future reference...... Melling is about 5 miles from my house.....they make their parts right here in my town.....I have heard some nasty stories from friends who have worked there about the kind of quality control they put out.

I can't say much for mopar engines but I can PERSONALLY tell you I have had to change 3 melling oil pumps on a ford 302 in the span of 2 years!!!!

reason being.....they machined the pump drive gears to large and when they install the bottom plate to the pump (the plate that encloses the oil pump housing) it presses against the pump gears.

what this causes to happen for one is.....it makes the gears extreamly tight to turn (which can snap or candy cane your oil pump drive shaft.......it could candy cane the shaft during break in and last 4 or 5 years or so before it finally snaps....but odds are it was initially damaged during the first start up of the pump)........the second thing this effects is.......after these gears spin so tight to the bottom mounting plate for so long.....the gears chew into the plate from the inside out......the more miles put on it after this process has started....the more material is chewed away.....which gives more room for slop in the gears to shift up and down.....and reason 3.....when the gears chew into the bottom plate....all the metal shavings continue to whip around inside the pump housing and they will chew the gears up and cover them in porosity which will often lead to low oil pressure or NO oil pressure.

not saying these are the cause of your problem.....but it COULD be....or could have played a contributing roll anyhow.

some people like melling.....but honestly I stay away from alot of their parts do to dealing first hand with some of their poor quality work.

when you take the pump out.....drop the bottom mounting plate and take pictures and see if the gears have chewed into the plate any.
 
Will do so. Thanks for the warning on Melling parts. I ordered a hardened shaft from another vendor and am seeking an oil pump but NOT a Melling.

SS,- I am going to pull the engine, I do not want to screw around with doing all that work on my back and then have issues down the road. I just hope that there is not too much damage internally.
 
dustermaniac said:
That's what I thought, the bottom of the shaft is supposed to be similar to a hex head bolt and have flat sides and not be grooved as this shaft is. I am going to order another pump and shaft (a hardened one if I can get one) and tear it open and see what transpires. I do not think I did any major damage to the engine. I shut it down pretty quickly.
Click to expand...
Im betting your right..My friend just had a similar problem he redid the top end of his older early hemi(something like a 321 hemi or some such) and he accidentaly blocked off something that starved the top end I think he replaced some stuff and ended up ok overall... I had a scare also. the oil pressure gauge line runs from the after market gage into the engine bay and to a nipple on the back of the engine..that actually broke and sprayed almost all the engine oil into the engine bay...I got lucky there was no fire probably and that it didnt damage anything(ended up going to braided line and added 4+ quarts of oil...but seems to run fine still so im assuming no permanent damage...I think if you pretty much caught it as it happened and shut it right down you will be ok.
 
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