Best hydraulic flat tappet lifter?

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The biggest thing to remember about ANY flat cam and lifter is how important the CORRECT break in is using the CORRECT assembly lube and CORRECT oil and or additive. Most of the time, failures are the fault of the builder, or whomever starts the engine for the first time. Actual failures from defects are rare.
 
All true about lifter failures at the lobe. But apples and oranges.....Most of this discussion has been about lifters 'collapsing' (not holding oil), not lobe-to-lifter failures.
 
I've used Comp almost exclusively. Some Engle. Some Crane, I buy the lifters with a cam. Never had a single failure or noise. Including 4 sets of Comps last year in various displacements. Most lifter issues are not the lifters. Might be the process, the install, the block itself... Rarely the lifters. Simple fact there.
Since we had a new Crane lifter gradually go flat and replaced it and all is then good, do you think it is more likely due to some speck of dirt in the lifter....or ?? (BTW, no problem with the lifter bores in that block...it was virgin.) Trying to figure out what you are doing right and others doing wrong, if indeed the lifters are fine. We keep our stuff pretty clean during assembly.
 
All true about lifter failures at the lobe. But apples and oranges.....Most of this discussion has been about lifters 'collapsing' (not holding oil), not lobe-to-lifter failures.

A lot of time, that's not the failure of the lifter either, but rather the fact that people pump the lifters up with oil before installation. That's incorrect procedure, because it can put undue stress on the lifter plunger right off the bat and cause the plunger to fail. Regardless of how they fail, IMO, true lifter failures due to actual defects are rarer than most people realize. People always tend to amplify the bad. How many success stories are there in comparison? You'll never hear about those.
 
Weren't there only a couple of flattappet lifter manufacturers back then, and now?
I put a comp xe268h in my 340 recently with their lifters when I start the Engine it clatters for a couple seconds until it has oil pressure.
I called comp and asked them about it, his response was what do you care if it clatters until it has oil pressure?
I just said well it never did that before?
So I called Lunati the guy there laughed when I told him comps remark, then said honestly I could say our lifters are better but the fact is there probably made by the same company.
He suggested Johnson or Johnson Hy lift
Two different companies...
I've been just living with them being noisy at first start up.
I did just switch from Penn Grade 20w 50
To their 10w 40 and it's better.
 
By chance, got cam card , on file ....or at least a grind number ? Crane Cams ,are usually really good on valve train. I'm curious what grind you are looking at ,and recommended open and closed spring pressures.
Either Crane cams
693511 or 693901 and crane 693801 (have to finish my Mopars in 5 months prior to retiring from sub service 31march) 2 aspens, 2 roadrunners, no more for another half to full decade.

I am swimming in choices, pistons: have 2 Speed Pro H116P and (1) 405 set. 273 adjustable rockers, stock, Chinese 1.6 stainless, PRW stainless 1.6, & used crane gold roller rockers for the W2's (I bought the W2's YEARS ago).

I might might might still have 95% of a W2 long valve econo set up, 675's, maybe a set of 360 heads, and the Chinese aluminum bare heads Ebay had for $414 a pop. The plan is to build two street engines and drive all the mopars from the east coast of I-10 back home to San Antonio.

Crane 693901 :
Hydraulic flat tappet

Basic Operating RPM Range:1,500-4,500

Intake Duration at 050 inch Lift:204

Exhaust Duration at 050 inch Lift:216

Duration at 050 inch Lift:204 int./216 exh.

Advertised Intake Duration:260

Advertised Exhaust Duration:272

Advertised Duration:260 int./272 exh.

Intake Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio:0.427 in.

Exhaust Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio:0.454 in.

Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio:0.427 int./0.454 exh.

Lobe Separation (degrees):112

Crane 693511:
Hydraulic flat tappet

Basic Operating RPM Range:1,200-5,000

Intake Duration at 050 inch Lift:212

Exhaust Duration at 050 inch Lift:220

Duration at 050 inch Lift:213 int./220 exh.

Advertised Intake Duration:268

Advertised Exhaust Duration:272

Advertised Duration:268 int./272 exh.

Intake Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio:0.459 in.

Exhaust Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio:0.480 in.

Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio:0.460 int./0.480 exh.

Lobe Separation (degrees):112
 
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Here at Crower we EDM a hole on our mechanical lifters and for our hydraulic lifters we make a slight flat spot 0.0025" on the side of the lifter to the oil band. only on the lower half of the lifter. As the lifter rotates it pumps oil across the whole cam lobe. Now all of these high lube lifters or EDM holes will drop the oil pressure on average 1-2PSI. That is not much but some people are crazy about 80PSI and if they drop below that they will pull apart the engine. Anyways here is a link

Search results for: '66031x3-16'
 
Since we had a new Crane lifter gradually go flat and replaced it and all is then good, do you think it is more likely due to some speck of dirt in the lifter....or ?? (BTW, no problem with the lifter bores in that block...it was virgin.) Trying to figure out what you are doing right and others doing wrong, if indeed the lifters are fine. We keep our stuff pretty clean during assembly.

Unless a pro shop bored the lifter bores (not factory machining) the bores could certainly be a problem. That's why the majority of the aftermarket blocks (not just Mopar stuff) need to be fully re-machined.
A lot of damage comes from valve train problems. Cheap pushrods, wrong springs, cheap rockers or shafts, and poor geometry will all affect the ability of any lifter to function long term. Plus all parts have some that will fail due to production. I couldn't tell you what yours was. I can only tell you I don't have the problems. Based on an estimated number of overall sales vs buyers with issues, and what I read in regard to approaches to assembly and break in, I blame the users...lol.
 
I put a comp xe268h in my 340 recently with their lifters when I start the Engine it clatters for a couple seconds until it has oil pressure.
I've been just living with them being noisy at first start up.
I did just switch from Penn Grade 20w 50
To their 10w 40 and it's better.

Have you got adjustable valve gear? What is your lifter preload?
Any time you shut your engine off, there will be at least 4 valves open to some degree or another. And I suppose, the springs,over time, could bleed the lifters down while sitting;and of course then you get the clatter at start up.
If you go to Hughes or Comp or perhaps some others, you can read there that the recommended lifter preloads are often .080 or more. If you consider that this is near the bottom of the plunger travel, if or when they bleed down, they can only move perhaps .040 to .050 so clatter is minimized. But the flipside of that is that if the springs lose control at high-rpm, and the lifters pump up, then suddenly the valves are .080 or more further open, and not closing at all.
So if you don't allow for that during the build, then the valves go crashing into the pistons and you are having a very bad day.
But if you did allow for that, then as long as the engine is wound up, it will continue to run,allbeit way under powered. As the Rs come down, there will come a point where the engine will sputter and die, because the valves are not closing..... and a restart will not be possible until the lifters bleed down. And since at shut down only 4 lifters will be under pressure, you still having a bad day.
So IMO, that .080 or more spec is...... um ....... not for me.
But what is the alternative?
Well IMO, running close to .020 is a better idea, because
1) the lifter can only pump up .020. So yes the valves will still not close when pumped up, but the likelihood of piston to valve contact is much reduced. And
2) they bleed down faster afterwards, cuz they only have .020 to go, and not .080.
The downside is that if they bleed down overnight, you may get a long period of time during which they clatter.Why is that? Well with a plunger travel around .135 and a preload of just .020, it is theoretically possible for the plunger to have to be pumped up .115 in the morning..... and you could have up to 4 lifters in that condition. Another downside is that you get to re-adjust them after cam break-in, as they settle in.
So to combat the clatter, I got me some anti pump-ups, and a hi-volume oil-pump. I then adjusted the valves to .020 preload. So now I have at least 7200 rpm capability (where I shift at a lot), and have never had pump-up, nor clatter ( ignoring every spring), don't have to worry about bent valves, and I get long enough periods between lash adjustments. And the hi-volume pump is there just in case,lol.
I ran 15W40 for a bit but the hi-volume pump would blow the filter off the seat,at rpm, and puke oil onto the header under it. I though that might have a catastrophic ending; so I took the engine apart and did some oiling mods, to let the oil flow more freely.
Now I run 10W30, any brand, and drop a few ounces of ZDDP in it just to keep the lobes happy. Yes any brand, whatever is on sale. I know, I heard all the arguments and read all the oil specs,But I wanted to freshen my engine in about 2006; so hey, let's see if all this oil-hype is true; I said. And here we are a dozen years later, and thousands and thousands of miles later, and I'm still waiting for the cam-lobes to fall off.
Your results may vary.
 
Thanks, Moper. I always appreciate the insight.

Just for the record.... we have had these additional soft lifter issues show up in:
  • A 4.7L Dakota engine.. All new stock replacement lifters in 2014, and some got rattly/noisy in 5-10k miles at start up and one never would quiet down. The original ones from 2003 were all good for 200k miles except for 1 that seemed to be a tad soft on occasion. Always clean oil, Mobil 1.
  • Similar issue as above with Mitsubishi 2.6L lifters (followers, in the ends of the rockers). The replacements just would not last well. That was 15 years ago.
  • Never had any hydraulics lifters go soft on any engine prior to 10-15 years ago. That included those in my 1.9L Opel rally engines that saw 8k RPM frequently and 7.5k at every 2-3 shift.
I just wrote it off to poorer design and mfr processes for after-market parts until this incident last year with the brand new Crane lifters.

And, I have tied it all in with poorer rebuilds and such coming out of Mexico and overseas.
 
Have you got adjustable valve gear? What is your lifter preload?
Any time you shut your engine off, there will be at least 4 valves open to some degree or another. And I suppose, the springs,over time, could bleed the lifters down while sitting;and of course then you get the clatter at start up.
If you go to Hughes or Comp or perhaps some others, you can read there that the recommended lifter preloads are often .080 or more. If you consider that this is near the bottom of the plunger travel, if or when they bleed down, they can only move perhaps .040 to .050 so clatter is minimized. But the flipside of that is that if the springs lose control at high-rpm, and the lifters pump up, then suddenly the valves are .080 or more further open, and not closing at all.
So if you don't allow for that during the build, then the valves go crashing into the pistons and you are having a very bad day.
But if you did allow for that, then as long as the engine is wound up, it will continue to run,allbeit way under powered. As the Rs come down, there will come a point where the engine will sputter and die, because the valves are not closing..... and a restart will not be possible until the lifters bleed down. And since at shut down only 4 lifters will be under pressure, you still having a bad day.
So IMO, that .080 or more spec is...... um ....... not for me.
But what is the alternative?
Well IMO, running close to .020 is a better idea, because
1) the lifter can only pump up .020. So yes the valves will still not close when pumped up, but the likelihood of piston to valve contact is much reduced. And
2) they bleed down faster afterwards, cuz they only have .020 to go, and not .080.
The downside is that if they bleed down overnight, you may get a long period of time during which they clatter.Why is that? Well with a plunger travel around .135 and a preload of just .020, it is theoretically possible for the plunger to have to be pumped up .115 in the morning..... and you could have up to 4 lifters in that condition. Another downside is that you get to re-adjust them after cam break-in, as they settle in.
So to combat the clatter, I got me some anti pump-ups, and a hi-volume oil-pump. I then adjusted the valves to .020 preload. So now I have at least 7200 rpm capability (where I shift at a lot), and have never had pump-up, nor clatter ( ignoring every spring), don't have to worry about bent valves, and I get long enough periods between lash adjustments. And the hi-volume pump is there just in case,lol.
I ran 15W40 for a bit but the hi-volume pump would blow the filter off the seat,at rpm, and puke oil onto the header under it. I though that might have a catastrophic ending; so I took the engine apart and did some oiling mods, to let the oil flow more freely.
Now I run 10W30, any brand, and drop a few ounces of ZDDP in it just to keep the lobes happy. Yes any brand, whatever is on sale. I know, I heard all the arguments and read all the oil specs,But I wanted to freshen my engine in about 2006; so hey, let's see if all this oil-hype is true; I said. And here we are a dozen years later, and thousands and thousands of miles later, and I'm still waiting for the cam-lobes to fall off.
Your results may vary.
I don't have adjustable rockers, but I did check all 16 valves with a adjustable push rod they are all .030 + /-
None of the valves stay open. with the valve covers off I was checking the travel of all the rockers to make sure my cam wasn't going away.
I watched every valve close in a few seconds!
So it only has to sit about an hour and it clatters for a couple seconds until it gets oil pressure.
Otherwise it seems to run fine and will rev to 6000 rpm no problem.
However it shakes at an idle more then I think it should.
With timing at 22 initial/ 34 total
It has 12.5" vacuum @ 750 rpms in neutral
 
Has any one here ran any of the summit brand lifters? Anyone had any problems with them? That's what I have havent run them yet just curious. They are 3 bucks each on a budget that's hard to beat!
 
I don't have adjustable rockers, but I did check all 16 valves with a adjustable push rod they are all .030 + /-
None of the valves stay open. with the valve covers off I was checking the travel of all the rockers to make sure my cam wasn't going away.
I watched every valve close in a few seconds!
So it only has to sit about an hour and it clatters for a couple seconds until it gets oil pressure.
Otherwise it seems to run fine and will rev to 6000 rpm no problem.
However it shakes at an idle more then I think it should.
With timing at 22 initial/ 34 total
It has 12.5" vacuum @ 750 rpms in neutral
Yeah she's got problems; probably best to start a new thread
 
Yeah she's got problems; probably best to start a new thread
it's a bit unusual, to me anyway, to not have to go to adjustable rockers with an aftermarket cam, because the base circles vary so much between manufacturers. Are you saying you re-used the oem pushrods?
 
I have to replace 2 from my Lunati set. Gonna do them all.
 
Thanks, Moper. I always appreciate the insight.

Just for the record.... we have had these additional soft lifter issues show up in:
  • A 4.7L Dakota engine.. All new stock replacement lifters in 2014, and some got rattly/noisy in 5-10k miles at start up and one never would quiet down. The original ones from 2003 were all good for 200k miles except for 1 that seemed to be a tad soft on occasion. Always clean oil, Mobil 1.
  • Similar issue as above with Mitsubishi 2.6L lifters (followers, in the ends of the rockers). The replacements just would not last well. That was 15 years ago.
  • Never had any hydraulics lifters go soft on any engine prior to 10-15 years ago. That included those in my 1.9L Opel rally engines that saw 8k RPM frequently and 7.5k at every 2-3 shift.
I just wrote it off to poorer design and mfr processes for after-market parts until this incident last year with the brand new Crane lifters.

And, I have tied it all in with poorer rebuilds and such coming out of Mexico and overseas.

Yeah - Maybe I'm just lucky - or it's the human sacrifices I keep up with :) (jk)
There are only one or two manufacturers now - so everyone gets the same quality - or perhaps the better way to say it is they get the level of quality expectation that their contract provides. I don't like the lifters with the stamped steel plunger retainers. Those are Edelbrocks, among others. I find those clips laying on top of the lifter after they pop out... Seen that 3-4 times when replacing camshafts. But I have not seen other issues. They are really simple parts. Not rocket science. The better ones have tighter clearances that yields better control (high rpm).
I've run stock replacement hydro rollers in strong engines before too with no issues. So I really don't know why some have problems. It might be too that some are hearing "a problem" when the only issue is the sound. After 30+ years doing just Mopars, and the vast majority for others, it's been my experience that parts should be the last thing blamed. Bad parts happen. But bad parts choices, bad machining, and/or bad labor practices happen much more often.
 
I posted about the flat spot on the lifter in another thread
it comes stock on the 80-90 Chevy v6 2.8 & 3.1 (not the cut down V8) maybe on some Buicks ( I forget)
lifter Johnson HT 2095 & Sealed Power (Eaton, TRW, McQuay VL 217) (Dana, PC, NAPA 213-1724)
buy one and copy on your mopar lifter it would help to have a used varnished up lifter so you can tell how much is sticking out the bottom of the lifter bore
you want the slot uncovered on the base circle then seals with some lift there is a picture in my Johnson catalog (1990 so it may have been used later)
just put a v block on a magnetic surface grinder and run the wheel across (you could do this with a sharp file)
There are very few camgrinders that go to the trouble to do this- Crower is one of them
in 1990 they made a 2011 and 2011-R for HP use
I've also sees 3 series an R and a High Torque Rhodes style)
Those with 67 and earlier Big Blocks I recommend using the 68 (HT 976 )and later and pushrods- the early one had a smaller cup and wore quicker
but actually recommend the Magnum lifter and oil through the pushrod pushrods
the early 318 non oil through the pushrod lifter was not being manufactured by Johnson/ Sealed Power even in 1990 and the HT 2011 specified
 
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Sorry no time to read through all of this thread.

To answer to the thread title--Melling hyd lifters have been good to me. Other brands seem to let me down with collapsing, noise or just shitty performance. J.Rob
 
I have used several sets of comp lifters over the years and have had zero issues. I have been looking at the ones that have the little hole in the face for my next build, but I haven’t made up my mind if it is a good idea or a sales gimmick. Anybody have experience?

I have used those EDM lifters( oil hole in the face) on a solid lifter cam i run. So i am using the solid lifter version. No gimmick, it provides lube where its very helpful. I am sold on it.
Howards sells a direct lube hydralic lifter set with the oil hole on the face. Thats what i would use
 
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