Body panel replacement tips/advice needed

[Dusterdude72]

Hey guys.....first let me say, I am somewhat a "jack of all trades" I have done a bit of everything that has to do with cars rather it be engine repair/building and all related aspects, most all things mechanical with the exception of not yet trying my hand at rebuilding a transmission on my own (Ill try it one day). Interior work,electrical work,metal work,body work,paint work......you name it I have done it multiple times.

however, I do not know EVERYTHING (who does?).....although I may be skilled enough to not have to pay a mechanic to fix my car or pay to have it restored. I still can not say I am an expert in any given area as I find there is always more to learn.

which is why I am making this thread lol.

soon I will be tackling the metal work I have been waiting to do on my 72 duster (saving funds to get the panels needed) ....I will be getting AMD panels.

I will be replacing both lower rear quarter panels. And I will also be replacing the tail light panel. Tail light panel is dented and has rust and its not really salvagable. and both lower rear quarters have rust.

both the trunk drop down panels that connect to the rear quarters have a little bit of rot but I will fabricate my own patches/replacements rather then spend the money on aftermarket replacements so I am not worried about that....what I am basically interested in is tips and pointers in regards to the lower rear quarters and tail light panel.

I have all the necessary tools for the most part. I have a welder (not the baddest dude on the market...thats for sure... but it does good on sheet metal ....just a cheap 110 wire fed flux cored non gas welder. I have done alot of welding with it and I am comfortable with using it so I normally can get pretty good welds out of it.

I know the basics of welding sheet metal being that you tack weld it up first and cool it with a wet rag or air in between spot welds to avoid warping and all that good stuff.

but I was curious if any others have gone about doing a project such as this that could tell me any tips on removing the old tail panel and lower rear quarters and how you went about lining it up and what type of welds you did on them and if anyone has any pictures of the process on the vehicle they did this too?

all the help/tips/advice/guidance would be appreciated

P.S. sorry for this being so long, just trying to make sure I have it explained as much as I can.

 

[Rob Eppler]

A couple of nice tools may include a cleco set and a flange tool. The cleco's will be nice for alignment of the panels and the flange tool/punch tool will help when welding the panels together.

 

[Dusterdude72]

A couple of nice tools may include a cleco set and a flange tool. The cleco's will be nice for alignment of the panels and the flange tool/punch tool will help when welding the panels together.

Thanks for the tip, I currently so not have this in my "arsenal" lol. I normally make do with what I have unless it's and absoloute must have . But I'll look into it, thanks again

 

[mtandrews]

I'm no professional welder by no stretch, as a matter of fact I got some valuable info from a few folks who weld for a living. I have never had any luck MIG welding sheetmetal with flux core wire even when I have my welder turned all the way down. It makes a pretty hole though! I use 90/10 argon-CO2 mix when doing sheetmetal as Argon rich blend don't penetrate as much. On "regular" stuff I use 75/25 or 80/20 for more penetration and higher heat. If you are gonna do some stainless steel then you are going to definitely need a machine that uses gas (tri-mix) and kicks out some juice.

 

[Dusterdude72]

Thanks for the info.

I am sure my welder will do the job fine though, I have used it plenty and know how to work it to avoid burn throughs.....I have done all the welding on the duster with it so far and have had good results so I should be fine there.

but thanks for the run down on what welding setup would be best!

 

[evil 340]

well, the flange-punch tool(harbor freight) will definately help. it s pretty cheap too. the clecos (dagger tools)are SUPER helpful. they ll hold the panel in place for you while you tac it up. spot weld cutting bits(harbor freight). i buy a lot of air tools from harbor freight. i ve NEVER broke any air tool from there. they re cheap to boot. make sure the metal where you re gonna put your welds is clean. i would flange the lower quarter patches. it gives you a nice lip to slide the patch behind the existing quarter, and also gives you a ton of strength. it will help keep the metal from warping. i always get the piece fitting really well, first. then tack it. i usually put my tacs about an inch apart. i wouldn t cool it with a wet rag. it cools a little too fast, and can cause more warp. i usually use a blow gun. after i get it all tacked...i ll go back thru and tac in between the first set of tacs. cool it a little. then, wire brush across the welds to get em clean. then just keep repeating the tacs, cooling, and brushing till they all overlap and the whole gap is closed.
as far as the tail lite panel...clean the lead out of the seams between the tail panel and the quarters. then u can use a spot weld cutter(harbor freight-might need a couple bits) to drill out the factory spot welds. there are also some along the bottom of the panel where it mates to the trunk floor. after that... the new one should go back in the same way the old one came out. just plug welds.
i would get all the new sheet metal first before you start takin your car apart though. make sure they re of the same size and dimensions. i just put a full quarter on my 72 demon from AMD and it fit, but it need some persuasion. if you wanna check it out check my thread out under members restorations. 72 demon 340 resto. good luck. if you need any other help...pm me.

 

[clhyer]

I use 1/8" self tapping sheet metal screws to hold panels together. Cheap and easy to use. Put them in about every 8-10", after tac welding, back the screws out and weld the hole up.
evil340, that was a beautiful corner piece there!:cheers:
C

 

[Dusterdude72]

evil340 thank you so much for all the info and for the pictures...thats exactly the type of info I am looking for.

I may take you up on the offer and PM you sometime and maybe get a few more pointers from you!.

also any tips on what to use in place of the lead when reinstalling the new tail panel?

and do you happen to have any picture of the "flange" you are talking about that you used?

thanks again your info was very helpfull and it looks like I need to invest in a few tools and some bits.

 

[green1]

Flanging invites rust. Mark where you want to cut out bad original, add 2". Then cut replacement to that size. Position it, and tech5 self- drilling screw at edges. Avoid any contours, match the contours. Now cut at 1 1/2" from edge, cutting new and old. A die grinder to start the hole, then a jigsaw with a 1/8" wide blade (you need 1/8" for weld contraction). Then cut both panels for 6", then peel back new panel from front, original from back, and tack(butt weld in several spots, with the wet rag right behind it.
Continue process, checking for warpage pushing outwards(means welds too hot, too close together, not cooled.). If it warps out, heat it(propane fine) and smack it in, letting the dolly behind it bounce off, when hit. Then slowly zap it closed. Make sure you take measurements, using a level from the floor, to all contours, and the bottom lip first, as you probably need to cut out the trunk extension, and replace it too.

 

[WymanV]

I'll share what my Teacher shared with me.

When he welds a full panel on, he will keep his beads under or around 1" long. Once he stops, he immediately grabs his grinder and grinds it flush. It makes the weld small before the heat spreads and therefore, doesn't spread a lot of heat causing warpage. He skips around the panel running his beads in places where the panel is cool until he's filling in the spaces between welds, grinding each one as he goes. And going one step further, he also spot blasts each weld as he goes to expose moisture holding pinholes that he welds shut.

I thought it was crazy as it takes quite a while to weld a replacement panel on but it works-I have never seen a quarter panel he has welded on that warped anywhere.

Ken

 

[waggin]

when welding anywhere near the car cover the glass or the weld spatter will melt into the glass,align the doors on the car before any welding in case you need some adjustment on the 1/4 panel.test fit every piec if you are dooing inner wheelhouse or trunk extensions,the more time you spend alighning the panels the better the job will turn out. Good Luck and keep up the good work :cheers:

 

[Dusterdude72]

Thanks everyone who has chimed in so far.....still find myself learning something new everyday.

all the body lines such as doors and fenders and what not line up. I am doing just the lower rear quarter patch not the hole quarter panel ...just incase there was any confusion about that.

I think soon I am going to make a list and put in an order for a few things I need/want to get from harbor freight so that way I am prepared when I am finally ready to start doing panel replacements on the duster.

which is why I am asking questions and looking for tips and advice now also so that I can make sure I am well prepared and have a good game plan lol.

I know enough and have a decent amount of experience that I normally wouldnt hesitate jumping right into it. BUT with the price of these dang panels and the fact that I do not want to do the job more than once .....I figured it would be a good idea for me to confide in my fabo friends first.

thanks again everyone and if you have anything to add ...please do!

 

[evil 340]

i guess there is definately more than one way to skin a cat(or car). self tapping screws work well in place of the clecos. good point. i didn t actually use the flange tool for the lower driver quarter patch. i used a bead roller,just for speed sake. but i have used the flange tool for the same purpose before. i will test my flange tool today. i ll see if it ll flange deep enough for what u wanna do. i ve used it more on newer, thinner metal cars. i ll let you know.flanging can leave a bad spot to introduce rust too. BUT.. it can be welded on the back side also, and if you use a good weld thru primer on the flange....and you don t park your car in a canal when you re not driving it....it s the best way to go. if you really wanna go the butt-welding route. you can do this too. i did that on my inner fender patches. the reason is b/c i seamed it where there was a lot of curves. CURVES, BENDS, FLANGES= STRENGTH and makes it less prone to warpage. i used butt-weld clamps(harbor freight). but it will be harder to fill the gaps, without burning thru. in my opinion...i say flange it.
as far as the wet rag thing goes....i used to use this method when i first started patching metal. over the years i ve found that the slow dry tach and clean method works best for me. metal has a memory. when you heat it...the metal softens and the DNA of it moves around. when its hot...it s loose and prone to move, and it might. a little. but it s memory comes into play here and it ll naturally wanna kinda go back to its original form. BUT if you suddenly cool it while it is hot and moving....you just changed it s memory, and it stops where its at. ALSO....HEAT AND MOISTURE are a horrible combo for creating corrosion. so you re kinda starting the corrosion process. i remember the first time i switched to the slow, tac method from the wet rag and small bead method. i was amazed. doing this slowly also gives you the advantage to turn your heat up just a bit. this gives you better penetration, and makes the welds flatter and wider. saves on grinding discs and ensures good welds. if you really wanna test both methods....take some clean scrap pieces, and try it both ways. see what you are comfortable with. that is a huge factor in successful patch work. i hate body work, so i don t like warpage.

 

[evil 340]

also.. i would use lead again. kinda a pain, but it won' t shrink like duraglass, or other fillers. i ve used duraglass before, but if your car is every in cold storage for any period of time... it can shrink a little. just enough to see a lil somthing going on.

 

[WymanV]

I've used self tapping screws too. The one thing to be aware of is to run the screw into the outer panel, pull it back out and grind down the little bit of metal that gets pushed out. Otherwise you'll have a gap between the layers of metal being welded together. Not so much an issue with patchwork and not really a big deal but something to be aware of.

Ken

 

[Dusterdude72]

Yeah I am not exactly sure which route I plan on going just yet because they each have pros and cons.

If I decided to go with a lap weld as was mentioned I would for one have to pick up a flange tool....which is not a big deal. I would have to overlap the new panel with the existing panel and either pick up some klinkos to aid in alignment or I would have to drill in some self tappers...which is also not a big deal. But the pros and cons of it is that with the lap weld I would have a little extra material behind the panel due to the addition of the flange which would help in avoiding burn throughs....BUT at the same time it would come with the price of having a lip on the backside that could gather rust over time.....sure I could fill it in from the trunk side with some sort of epoxy but at the same time.....with using a lap weld and flange it is noticeably obvious when looking at the back side of the quarter panel from inside the trunk that there has been metal replacement.

where as going with a butt weld its not as obvious when looking from the back side that a replacement had been made and you have the option of grinding down the backside if desired........but the CON of going with the butt weld is the increased chance of burn throughs.

I am thinking that what I will end up doing is pick up some spot weld bits ( I have some somewhere but who knows exactly where LOL).....figure out where I want to cut,draw my line,cut the line with a 1/16" thick cut off wheel,drill out all my spot welds,split the panels, make some replacement trunk drop extension panels and get them welded up into place,get some weld through primer to prevent ant future rust from forming on anything hidden,put my new panel in place and clamp it all down and I think I will end up butt welding the panels in place and pool welds up where the factory spot welds were.

but with most of the panels being accessible from inside the trunk ......I could always take a piece of copper or something and have it on the back side of the panel where my butt weld seam would be and it would act as a weld backing to prevent burn throughs and would also act as a heat sink.

I am just thinking out loud right now lol....just weighing options and figuring out the game plan and gathering info from you guys to see how you have done it and how you prefer doing it and what tips you nay have to share.

Thanks again everyone and keep the ideas and pictures coming!

 

[Dusterdude72]

I hope you do not mind that I use your picture but I didnt have a good close up picture of my drivers side rear quarter to use as an example.

anyhow, my drivers rear quarter panel has some "lumpy" metal where it had been in a fender bender and someone tried repairing it (this damage was extended around onto the tail panel aswell which someone "repaired" which along with some rust issues is why I am replacing the rear panel also).

shown in GREEN is roughly where the lump metal is on my car.

shown in BLUE is where there is a slight dent right on the body line of the wheel well.

Shown in RED is roughly where there is rust issues.

And shown in yellow is roughly what I THINK the size of the replacement panels is. (judging by pictures of new replacement panels they spann roughly from the center of the wheel well until the panel end, and from the bottom of the panel until about an inch over the top body like which would be right under the fuel filler opening.

the ORANGE line represents roughly where I am thinking of cutting and replacing (about 2" below the top body line ). that will get rid of all of the rusty/dented metal in that area.

I just wanted to share that with you guys so you could see what I am working with.

the passenger side I am basically just looking at the very lower portion of the panel needing replaced such as the original picture evil340 posted.

also here is a picture of the duster when I first got it a couple of years ago, you can kind of see where the rust and dents are that I mentioned.

 

[dustermaniac]

Not to hijack your thread but I am needing to do the same type repairs on my Duster. I have NEVER done body work to this extent before and am afraid I will F it up!!! I need to buy the tools to attempt this, or better yet if there are any members here in North Carolina who want to earn some coin and help a FABO brother out, I would be willing to pay someone to do this for me.

 

[clhyer]

I did the exact repair you need to do. Use the flange tool. It will be on the inside of the trunk, you can coat it with seam sealer when complete, spray on some undercoat and it will not be "that noticeable". If you paint over the undercoat, use a couple good coats of stain block first...
C

 

[evil 340]

the flange in the trunk is now a big deal at all. i just grind that small area and put one nice coat of filler over that area, and it all blends in. 1/2 hr fix. like flyr said...by the time you get a coat of epoxy and your undercoat down. you ll never know it s there. did this on my 71. totally invisible. i just think you re gonna get more warpage than you want by butt- welding, but if thats what you wanna do...do it. i ve been trying to post some pics of how i butt welded my inner fenders but it wouldn t let me do it. let me try again.

 

[Dusterdude72]

this is exactly why I posted this thread lol, so I could get everyones input and for peoples input to make me think harder about what I am doing. You make a good point with the flange lowering the risk of warpage and with having to weld such a large peice in a large somewhat flat area that's right in plain sight. I want to eliminate as much possible warpage as I can and keep any hammer and dolly and body filler to a minimum . And I suppose even with going the flanged route that if the back side is not 100% perfect looking that it's not that big of a deal.

As mentioned I can use seam sealer, under coat it and I have plans to finish off the trunk in carpeting with panels that cover the trunk to quarter drop off gaps anyhow .... So if all else fails it would be hidden anyhow.

I might just go that route.

Keep the pics and ideas flowing everyone regardless of my choice on direction I still like hearing how you all do things and I like see the car **** of the work you do lol

And dustermaniac HOW DARE YOU HIJACK THIS THREAD!!!!, hahaha I'm just kidding..... I hope every one who needs to brush up on some metal work gets a chance to catch this thread.

Thanks again guys!

 

[plugger340]

I've heard that some autobody guys cut around the fender marker light when they're replacing the rear quarter panel as sometimes the reproduction panel marker light opening might be off a bit. That way both sides of the car match up. Have anyone come across this problem?

 

[Dusterdude72]

Ok guys, soon I will be tackling the metal work on the duster!

I put my tail panel on order and both lower rear quarter panel patches on order and I also put a flanging/hole punching tool on order.

I have a couple of questions though.

when I go to do the panel replacements , should I be flanging the metal on the quarter panel and setting the patch panel into the recess I flanged into the quarter?

or should I be flanging the patch panel and placing it into the quarter panel?

I would assume (atleast my plan was) to lay my replacement panel against the quarter panel as a reference and trace out where I wanted.

then I was going to roughly trace a line about a half inch below that line as my actual cut line.

I was then going to use the flange tool on the quarter panel (that is the reason for the added half inch or so because I figure the flange will be somewhere around a half of an inch in size give or take).

then I was going to clean up all the metal and use some weld through primer.

then I was going to pop in some holes in the patch panel about every 1/2"- 3/4" or so.

then I was going to lay the patch panel into the flange I made on the quarter panel and clamp it all into place, then I would just spot weld all of the holes I punched into the metal.

after that is all done I plan on using some duraglass in my seam and then grinding it down and then using a skim of body filler and smoothing it off for the final finish.

for the tail panel ....I will basically be drilling out old spot welds and removing the panel,swapping over all my tail light brackets and what not, popping in new holes in the panel for spot welding.....pop it back into the car and weld it in place and then using duraglass for the seams where the lead would have been from the factory.

again, this is all just a quick run down of what I was thinknig of doing when I do finally get to work on it .....but its not set in stone....I just wanted to run the process I was planning on past those of you who have "been there & done that" to see what you thought about the plan.

also, if anyone has any more detail info and pictures that show more details on how you did your patch panel replacements and or tail panel replacement I would really appreciate it..... even knowing as much as I know....I make no claims to being an expert and always like learning tricks of the trade I might not know.

thanks again

 

[evil 340]

that plan sounds pretty good. i would do a couple things different tho. i ve done it that way also, but you might wanna completely tack weld the entire outer seam. it will take time, but it will be well worth it. if you just plug weld the holes, you run the risk of that unwelded seam cracking. it will be a lot stronger if you just take your time cooling it and tack welding the entire seam. when i did mine..i completely welded the entire seam, front and back. took some time, but worked out good.
another thing you might wanna consider is..leading over the seam on the outside when you re done. duraglass is hard stuff, but it can shrink. i did this on a car once. i welded the whole seam, and ground it down. it was pretty flat, but you could still kinda see the welds. i blasted the seam to get it clean and then ground it up and coated it with duraglass. a little bit of filler after that, and smoothed the area out. it was straight and smooth. after a couple of years in the cold, and the seam started to show up. it didn t bubble, or crack, but you could kinda see the seam. it shrunk. you probably wouldn t even notice it if you didn t know it was there, but i could see it.
i know this sounds like a lot of work, but i d never take that chance again. i know a lot of guys probably get away with it, but....
in the first pic you can see the left vertical seam is finish welded and the top horizontal seam is half way welded.
the second pic is of the rear patch with the lead over it and filed and ground down.(sorry, i didn t have a close up of the other patch with the lead in it).

 

[clhyer]

I agree with evil 340's weld the complete seam.
I flanged the patch panel on the workbench. You probably wouldn't be able to get your flanging tool into that area near the outer wheelhouse. Flange the patch so that it slides up behind the quarter, screw it in place and weld the entire seam.
IIRC, you are getting a new tail panel from AMD? It's a nice piece but you will want to fit your tail lights before you put it on the car. You will probably have to do some trimming of the tabs that the tail light fits around.
How is that small filler piece at the lower edges of the tail panel? Mine were rusted out and I had to fabricate a set, compound curves - I think they are being repopped now? That little corner piece that attaches to the 1/4 panel, tail panel and trunk pan extension.
Put your tail panel in place and clamp or screw it to hold it, and make sure your trunk lid shuts correctly, that your 1/4's haven't moved while the tail panel was removed. When you are satisfied with the fit, weld it in. Get your tail light brackets in place where you think they go, test fit with the tail lights before welding them in place, same with the trunk latch brace.
Good luck with it. It's a challenge, but very doable. Just take your time, test fit and double check every measurement before cutting, and check again before welding.
C