Bracket engine, what would you build and why?

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1Jeff

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Blew the engine up season before last. 532 1/2 1/4 mile passes on a set of Bme rods did it in. In the planning stages for the new engine and would like to hear opinions from others who have been there done that.
Duster chassis car, 2560 with me in it. Old engine was a iron headed 440, ran 10.0X in good air. Power glide, 4.56 gears, 32x14 goodyears. Shifted at 5,600, trapped around 6,500. Car was deadly consistent to 1000 ft., but every now and then would throw you a number or 2 in the last 320.
I'm guessing with the very close, if not stock 452's it was out of breath at 6,500. The inconsistency in the last 320 could be aero, or air disturbance into the carb?
I don't have a comp. license, but am not against getting one if there is a advantage to running faster. That said, I would rather not. Thinking about more power, less gear and possibly a throttle stop.
This is a bracket car so I would like the engine to live a long life and keep maintenance as reasonable as possible. I'll probably make 180-200 passes a year. I have 2 400 blocks and 2 440 blocks.
So like the title says what would you build and why?
 
Just for starters, I'd never use aluminum rods in a bracket engine despite the many runs. Too many good steel rods that will last a lot longer.

As for inconsistency at the top end, it could be air turbulence, but could also be a lean condition from jetting or fuel delivery. But even slight variances in a breeze can change ET's by a couple of hundredths between runs, which you or the engine have no control of.

Just remember, consistency wins bracket races, not necessarily how fast you are. Concentrate on reliability and ease of maintenance. Fast is fun, but 9.99 has a LOT of additional safety rules that have to be followed too.
 
Thanks for the reply! I agree on the aluminum rods in a bracket engine, they were there when I bought the car. I had thought about pulling it to have them checked, but unfortunately received some bad advice. I will not run them again.
I plan to do what I can to help aero and clean up the air flow into the carb. I don't really know how bad it is now.
The fuel system is more than capable of supporting the power the engine made. When I bought the car it had a 850 dp on it. Had to replace the throttle plate due to vacuum leak, then a fuel bowl went bad [corrosion?]. Put a pro systems 1000 on it and ran basically the same, little better 60 and 1/8 th maybe.
 
I would use one of the 400 blocks and put a 440 crank in it to give you 451 cubic inches. This is a very popular build, and makes great power. Very simple, and only requires a little machine work and offset grinding.

Would be less weight on the nose of the car as well, since the deck height of a 440 is about 3/4 of an inch higher than the 400. Lose the weight and keep the displacement.
 
My uncle had a 400 based 472 stroker. It was 13:1 with stage 6 heads, 650 solid flat tapet, m1 tunnel ram with 2 650 demons, ati treemaster 8" converter and 4.88 gears. It went a best of 10.40 and would go 10.45-10.50 any day of the week. That motor had tons of passes on it and when he sold the shortblock the bearing looked like they were brand new, as did all the rotating assembly. It was a muscle motors kit
 
Have I been there done that...NO!

But if you're not set on going faster and truly want to win races with consistency, I'd do the 440, since you already have the headers for the tall deck. Lets face it, 500hp in that light car would easily run somewhere in the 10's and still keep you in your track programs "fast" bracket.

I'd look into a moderate compression forged rotating assembly, and I'm sure someone here could guide you toward one that's solid for many runs...like hundreds if it's cammed and sprung properly :D.

In my opinion, screw the "big" numbers. Just build a solid engine that just needs a oil change or two, and a valve clearance check every now & then.
 
Thanks for all the replies!
I am defiantly considering a stroked 400. Reliability, cost and keeping maintenance to a minimum are all important considerations. There are many ways to build a engine that would run 10.xx in this car.
What I want to build is the most consistent. As an example is a 500 + ci. engine at a lower rpm going to be more or less effected by wind changes on the big end compared to a smaller engine at a higher rpm at the same mph? The bigger engine should have more torque per power stroke, but the smaller engine will have more power strokes. Is a heavier car going to be less effected by the wind than a lighter car?
Is a car that is a little soft on the front half and pulls hard enough on the back half to run the same et any more consistent on the big end than a car that is faster on the front half than it is on the back half?
Thanks again!
 
I would use a Chevy big block. Tons of them around and they are cheap. That way, when you blow one up, you ain't lost much.
 
There are soooo many variables to consider when your car is off a few on the big end of the track, but it sounds like you have a great foundation for a bracket car....Big tires and not an obscene amount of horse power.

I don't know big blocks, but I would keep the cam relatively tame for the sake of reliability (no crazy ramps)....that's what I did with my small block and I don't regret it. Sure it could go faster with a bigger cam, but it is very low maintenance and reliable with what I've got, and it is SUPER consistent....oddly enough it is pretty quick to boot.
 
I run a similar combo in a 74 Cuda to get 10.70's @123mph. Super bracket motor but give up too much at max revs, because of the OEM heads. Recently considered a new motor and thought I'd build a forged assembly, 500 incher, low deck or high, with Edie heads and Holley 950. Install a near steerable hydraulic roller cam, and I'd bet that with the lightweight car you have, you'll be in the 9's @ 132 to 135mph without any port work.
 
Thanks again for all the replies, keep them coming!
No Chebby in my mopar ever, can't see starting with a inferior engine.
I know there are sooo many variables to consider when you're off a few on the big end, but I figure [usually gets me in trouble lol] that the best time to consider everything you can is when building. Agree on the no radical ramps, can anyone suggest someone to spec. a cam for me that understands the difference between a bracket engine and one built to make the most power possible.
I may be wrong but I think with the old engine going through the traps around 6,500 with very close to stock 452's the engine was past peak power and that could contribute to the inconsistencies in the last 320. I video taped my tach, around 5,100 at the hit, shift 56-59,000.
Thinking better heads and less gear to have engine making good power in the last 320?

Flyfish
Awesome looking car, love that body. What does it weigh?
 
A lot has changed over the last 10 years. There are some decent value parts to put something together that doesn't have to work as hard to get the result. Bracket racing is about racing. Not maintenance. If it was me, and I was looking for longest racing service life, I'd build a 500" B wedge. A good set of heads and mild solid roller and it should last seasons without freshening rings or springs which will be the wear items. I think the longer stroke will pair with the 'Glide but you would need to change the convertor and maybe regear. The budget would set the parts list. Starting with nothing you're probably looking around $12K to have it turn key dyno'd and ready depending on the builder.

I'll add being affected by temperature is not really a concern with the bigger engines too. They just don;t have to work as hard and as such are less dependant on local weather conditions for "perfect air".
 
Building a stroker 470 or 500 would be cool and make a lot of power for sure. but i agree with bob. I have a 3520 pound 73 dodge dart that has a mild built 440, that i run on 93 pump gas and has ran 10.49 in the 1/4 with no tuning and the wrong torque converter.I guess what i am trying to say is if the 440 in my dart will run 10.49 at over 3400 pounds just think what it would run if it only weighed 2500 pounds. Unless you want to build the 400 based stroker, nothing wrong with that,i say build a pump gas or E85 440 and have fun.I have even drove my dart on the street some last summer. Oh got any pics of your car??
 
Hears a couple picks of the car. I hope lol.
 

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mopar65

I know I'm showing my age hear but that et at that weight does not sound like a mild 440 to me. Care to share some details?
 
I know absolutely nothing about alcohol. How bad is the learning curve? Cost to convert? Just bought a new pro systems carb. year before last, is it worth having it converted?
I really like the low deck stroker idea, stronger block lighter rotating assembly should live a long life. I know people spin them above 6,500, but I won't have to. Going from a iron headed 440 to a aluminum headed 400 stroker will take some weight out. A good set of aluminum heads with the correct cam, will make more power. Anyone want to guess at et reduction, say with a 451?
In a B block is the longer stroke required to get near 500 cubes harder on the block? Anyone running a big cube B block care to share some info? Number of passes, passes between freshens and what it needed to be freshened?
My local track switched to Ihra this year and there going to have some index races that I am interested in. I haven't talked to the track or looked at a Ihra rule book to see what will be different. I can see a throttle stop in my future.
Thanks again for all the input!
 
Stock slant 6 w/A904......

You'll be very consistent (although slow).


And you'll also get wins because your opponent breaks out because you're so far ahead......


:glasses7:
 
emsvitil,

I can't keep my glide? You sure the 904 is worth the swap ? lmaof
 
The adapter to bolt on the glide is more expensive than the 904......



:D
 
You got a built 904 I can buy cheaper than the adapter?
 
1Jeff said:
mopar65

I know I'm showing my age hear but that et at that weight does not sound like a mild 440 to me. Care to share some details?
Click to expand...

thanks for the pics, that's a great looking car you have there!:burnout: I am building a 73 Plymouth duster and it is getting the drive train out of the 73 dart. I hope the duster is 3000 pounds or less with me in it. one the engine here it is

73 440 block 0.030 over with wisco flat top pistons
eagle rods/ stock forged crank
gasket matched wieand tunnel-ram to 650 dp carbs converted with pro comp main bodys
mild comp solid roller. 264 at 0.050 and 634 lift after you add crane 1.6 roller rockers
mild bowl ported Indy EZ heads and stock intake ports. porter racing heads specked the cam and worked a little on the heads for me. mostly just fixed Indy cylinder heads crappy valve job/bowl port.ran out of money to have more done to them.
TTI 2x3-1/2 headers
at the time i was using a 9.5 dynamic converter that only stalled around 4200 rpm, with my cam i should of been using a 5200 stall
weld 15x8 drag light wheels/ M/T 275/60/15 ET street drag radials.
8-3/4 with 4.30 gears, was using a set of 4.10 but blew them up on my 5th pass right after i got the car running.put the 4.30 in becasue they was used and in good shape. haven't blew them up yet.lol think the car would be faster with a set of 4.10 in it again.
oh sorry the compression cam out to around 10.9 but i tell everybody it has 11.1. all passes were made on 93 pump gas you get at the gas station.

I have sense then installed a ATI-8 inch converter that i had Lenny at ultament converter concepts redo for me. now on the street the car will stall to 5200-5400.installed 3.5 exhaust to the rear axle with dyno max bullet race mufflers and got a set of the M/T 275/60/15 radial pro tires. the car fills like a whole different animal now, but have not been back to the track in a few years to try the upgrades out. life and health have got in the way.I was going to build a pump gas 512 striker for my dart at the time, that's why i bought the Indy EZ heads for when i was ready to step up but that never happened. the engine is very low maintenance all i do is change the oil when it needs it, change the plugs once a year and check the valve lash once in awhile. well hope this answered some of your questions. oh guess i lied the car weighs 3520 with me in it and after i first got it running my best pass of that days was 10.66 but i blew up the 8-3/4 on the 5th pass that day so didn't get to do any tuning etc. I think i could of got the et down more becasue my first pass of the trailer that day was a 10.92. the last time i had it to the track i let my friend drive it that weighs around 100 pounds less than i do ran 2 or 3 10.49 passes back to back. the car was the same except i went from 4.10 gears to 4.30 and let my friend drive the car.so i will say it weighed 3420 with him in it.I don't know how much HP the engine is making, but i would like to build a 512 stroke motor so i can run some 10.00 flat in the 1/4 in street trim. well sorry this is so long just board and got to typing.lol thanks Bobby
 
1Jeff said:
You got a built 904 I can buy cheaper than the adapter?
Click to expand...

I think going back to a 3sp, at the expeced weight of a B wedge with some alimunum will really mess with your suspension tuning and it will be slower even when you eventually get it to work. Your choice - but I'd leave the 'glide.

Here's a "for instance" on a B stroker:
383 + .030
full block machining but stock caps and main studs
pump gas (91 w/10% ethanol)
Stealths - Level 3 hand ported
Muscle Motors 4.25 stroker kit (4.25 x 4.280 bore is 496")
modified stock wet sump oiling w/stock pan & windage tray
port-matched RPM dual plane
custom Comp solid flat tappet, under .530 lift, under 244° @ .050, 1.5 rockers
belt driven water pump & p/s pump
Factory exhaust manifolds, 2.5" modified stock type full exhaust
Stock factory air cleaner (car won 1st in Stock Appearing at Carlise)
This is a low maintenance, pump gas engine, running street type carb, intake, and exhaust. It's made about 430hp to the tires, 450tq. Depending on your math that's around 510-520hp.
With .070 more bore, a real cam, race intake, and race headers I would imagine another 50-80hp is easy to get on the same fuel without exotic oiling, vacuum pump, or alcohol. It's barely touching it's potential as it was built as stock appearing and all street duty. The 383 is not my first choice for block - the 400 would be stronger.
 
mopar65,

Thanks for the compliment. It's no show car, has a few battle scars. lol
Sounds like you built a real nice engine. Mid 10 sec. pump gas street car on a little tire is very impressive! What rpm do you shift and trap at? What was the difference in trap rpm going from the 4.10 - 4.30 gears.
I have heard nothing but good about Dwayne Porter. I will talk to him about heads and a cam, for sure. I was planning on a set of ez's but I am really interested in Trick Flows new head.
There is a lot of weight that can come off a Duster, just depends on how far you want to take it. I could easily get another 200 off. Safety glass windshield, alternator, carpet, iron heads and water pump housing, funny car cage, heavy scoop, 3 lbs of rubber in the tubs. lol
What trans. are you using?
 
There's a lot of "ink" that you should go big, 500+ inches. While there are good points to that, (especially if you're starting with nothing) sometimes we lose sight of SIMPLE and CHEAP, right? One of the best bracket combos I ever had and would repeat run after run...it was DEADLY consistent and made over 300 runs before I sold the car. All it needed was a driver...LOL.

.030 over 440
OE crank
prepped LY rods (gasp!)
TRW replacement 440 4 bbl pistons (GASP!) w/hand made valve reliefs. Right at 11:1 as bolted together.
Crane R280 roller cam (WAY to big, but that's what I had on hand)
906 heads, 2.14/1.81 ported. Flowed mid 260's on Holton's bench
MP M1 single plane 4150 intake
Adaptor and 1050 Dominator (no changes other than jets)
OE Mopar elec distributor and MSD 7AL
2" Hooker headers run open, no muffs.

Alum drum, roller 727 (only footbraked)
8" Munsinger converter
8 3/4 with 4.86's and a spool
Ladder bar with 14x32 rubber

73 Cuda right at 3300 with me on board...

10.40's @ 127 almost everywhere we took it at sea level. Best of 10.38 @ 128 on a cool July morning at Somona. High 10.90's at Fallon one fall I drug it up there.
 

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