build strokers or buy them

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nitrojunkee said:
It was an iron headed 440 that the previous owner had put a procharger on. He had the heads off of it 4 times according to him, and couldn't get it to run right. After it pushed a head gasket, I tore it down. The deck of the side that pushed was out by almost .030 and measured at factory height. The crank didn't spin very well either. After taking getting the bottom end apart I could tell it hadn't been align honed. Yet the guy paid to have the rotating assy internally balanced with an SFI damper. He even had the counterweights polished. None of it made sense to me. There is no way I'd put together any engine like that, especially one that was making 15lbs of boost. There were a ton of other issues like exhaust leaks, carb tuning, plug gap, timing....But he completely skimped on machine work imo.

But like I said, everyone has their own way of doing things, so whatever.
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15 lbs of boost supercharged 440. You didn't say, but I'll assume approaching600 hp was projected/expected.

You admit, he had some inconsistant stuff he threw money at; polished counterweight vs true decking and align honing. On a 15 lbs boosted motor. ](*,) I guess he didn't "get what he payed for" with that polished crank.

There were a ton of other issues like exhaust leaks, carb tuning, plug gap, timing....
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Best machine work is not going to fix that. I'm sure that contributed to his issues too.

OP was talking a naturally aspirated motor that will make a little more than one HP per cubic inch.
 
autoxcuda said:
15 lbs of boost supercharged 440. You didn't say, but I'll assume approaching600 hp was projected/expected.

You admit, he had some inconsistant stuff he threw money at; polished counterweight vs true decking and align honing. On a 15 lbs boosted motor. ](*,) I guess he didn't "get what he payed for" with that polished crank.



Best machine work is not going to fix that. I'm sure that contributed to his issues too.

OP was talking a naturally aspirated motor that will make a little more than one HP per cubic inch.
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I realize the OP's build is going to be different, and I apologize for straying off a little. But my point was more for the "getting what you pay for" argument. I don't believe in skimping on machine work no matter what the build is. I believe everything I stated as always having done, helps keep a build together longer, stroker or not. It has worked well for me, so that's what I do.

And by buying a pre-built short block, how do you really know what you're getting as far as machine work goes, unless you tear it down and have a look? And if you're going to all that trouble, why not build it yourself? Just my opinion.
 
frosty_the_punk said:
I'd love to see a breakdown of the individual costs a complete $3-$4k stroker build.
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Dug up my receipts. Here is what I have:

Eagle rotating assembly part #20502 $1225.00

202-3203 cam $159.98

Lifters HT-2011 $65.60

08-1103 H.D Timing set $59.56

SH-285 Cam Bearings $26.89

M-72 Oil Pump $49.70

260-1033 Gasket set $81.31

SUB TOTAL $1668.04



MACHINE SHOP WORK:

degrease and wash ports $125.00

Bore and Hone cylinders $240.00

resurface top of block $100.00

Align Hone Mains $125.00

Balance assembly $250.00

SUB TOTAL $1150.00



OTHER PARTS FOR BUILD:

Holly Carb str avenger $369.95

Ign kit with coil&wires $242.45

Cast iron Indy X Heads $1225.00

Head bolts $73.00

SUB TOTAL $1910.40



GRAND TOTAL of BUILD $4728.44



***Also not listed in the machine work cost was his time breaking down my 360 for a diagnosis of what I had. I wasnt even charged for that. Since I bought this motor knowing it had a bad piston I was hoping to just fix that and have a decent engine for cheap... this was not to be the case my motor was basically junk so I bit the bullet spent the money and got it stroked!

So all that for well under $5 Grand I think I got a good deal!
Hindsight being 20/20 since it is an LA block I should have spent the extra money and went with roller lifters and cam that is about the only thing I would have done different.

A few of the posts here make it sound like if you don`t spend at least "X" amount of dollars it`s not a quality build. I don`t think that is the case at all. Find the right guy who knows what he is doing and charges a fair price and you can make out OK!

It`s like remodeling your kitchen you spend $5 grand on yours and your neighbor spends $15 grand on his. You both got the exact same stuff but used different contractors who were both competent. Whose kitchen is better the guy who spent an extra $10 K? I don`t think so!
 
cannucky said:
You get what you pay for Buddy , you want to daily drive a $3500 stroker go ahead , you will be building another next year , people are trying to tell you not to cheap out on the build with shyte parts and cheap work ,build it right the first time and pay once , we have a couple of very reputable builders around here who will build you a good motor for between 6k-7k thats what it costs for proper parts and labour the base price for my build was $6495 plus dyno break in and tuning , plus head porting , plus some extra bolt ons and i was just north of 8k for more power and torque than you want but this motor has been back and forth across Canada twice and is going again this summer at more than 10k miles round trip each time with no issues . Try that with a $3500 blueprint stoker that is going to show up untested ,untuned without proper break in .
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What about building a motor yourself? You know for the mechanically inclined person.

You can build your own low HP (1 HP/CI or less) stroker long block for $3600 ($3595). It will be nothing fancy and use all stock based parts. And with stock based parts re-used from original motor. Re-use stock heads with daily driver nothing fancy valve job.

And it's not going to blow up within 1 year.

I don't see why this "Blueprint" company's 408 stroker would be any less reliable than thier 360 motors. Not saying either motor is any good.

It's just a 0.420" extra stroke. If you had a Scat 3.58 crank next to a scat 4.00 crank you couldn't see the difference. But somehow people think Rocket Scientists need to be called in.
 
d100clubcab said:
At times we tend to think because we pay more for an item it is better than a cheaper one purely because of cost.
I work with bean counters that charge other companies for my services so Ive learned how they trim our fat but still charge for our fatty services.
When you list out items and services needed in a shortblock,
You see where charges are inflated or not.
Ever wonder why one shop charges $80 for an oil change and another wants $50?
Same car too.
I see MRL and moper builds engines here. Brian at IMM out in Cali as well as Shadydell. Shady lists some prices online. I'm sure these four shops will have different price points for the same engine.

Build it right, build it once is true, but I don't think we need to .000 deck a block or put girdles on a daily driver.

Why put $3k worth of heads on a cruiser that never sees the track? porting heads on a truck motor that wants grunt under 4k rpm?

mopars are cool but I think we are pricing ourselves out of fun at times.
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like I said in my first post the base was $6495 and was built by one of the people you mentioned , I could have stayed at that price and got about 475/475 or so but I spent an extra $400 on porting for an extra 50/50 and while paying more doesn't guarantee better paying too little does means getting less every time, there are no free rides in the world of performance ,when I was ready to make the move from 318 to stroker I called and talked to everybody I could , got references as to who really stands behind their product and who's products stand up , it took me almost a year to figure it out but that just put more money in my engine fund , do your homework and then make the call but as I said if you think your going to get a long lasting daily driven stroker for $3500 ......good luck to ya !
 
nitrojunkee said:
And by buying a pre-built short block, how do you really know what you're getting as far as machine work goes, unless you tear it down and have a look? And if you're going to all that trouble, why not build it yourself? Just my opinion.
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it all comes down to trust.
Everyone makes mistakes.
You do something 1, 000 times a mistake is probably gonna happen.
Nascar guys make mistakes week in and week.
 
cannucky said:
like I said in my first post the base was $6495 and was built by one of the people you mentioned , I could have stayed at that price and got about 475/475 or so but I spent an extra $400 on porting for an extra 50/50 and while paying more doesn't guarantee better paying too little does means getting less every time, there are no free rides in the world of performance ,when I was ready to make the move from 318 to stroker I called and talked to everybody I could , got references as to who really stands behind their product and who's products stand up , it took me almost a year to figure it out but that just put more money in my engine fund , do your homework and then make the call but as I said if you think your going to get a long lasting daily driven stroker for $3500 ......good luck to ya !
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Something as simple as getting an oil change on my wife's car from our area's three dealerships gives three different prices. Same procedure and materials on same car but three diferent prices.
 
d100clubcab said:
it all comes down to trust.
Everyone makes mistakes.
You do something 1, 000 times a mistake is probably gonna happen.
Nascar guys make mistakes week in and week.
Click to expand...

Trust. Does anyone really care about your stuff as much as you do? There might be a few places like that left. But probably not as many as there should be. I trust very few people to do any work on my stuff. I always do as much as I possibly can. Even if It's something I've never done before. Will I and do I make mistakes? Yep. But at least I know I only have myself to blame, and not some shop that may care less....After they've taken my money. Even more important, I enjoy it doing the work, It's one of my hobbies.
 
Trust takes a long time to buid.
My favorite machine shop closed this year, cancer beat the owner up pretty good, so he sold his equipment and closed the shop.
I still have 3 engines that he done the machine work on, I assembled.
Just for a price break down this is what the engines run me for machining and parts.
1952 134 Willys flat head, .080 over $2500
1972 340 .030 x heads $2700
1994 360 std bore, al heads, lot of goodies $4700
All motors are stock stroke, just depends on what you want out of them.
 
I stroked my 883 sportster to 1200 myself because of shop costs.
only problem is i think i'll need more (costly) specialty tools to do this 408 than it took for my harley.

besides, it's only like $500 to actually assemble the engine.
most of the cost is in balancing, boring and honing (about $1,000 for those 3 services).



autoxcuda said:
What about building a motor yourself? You know for the mechanically inclined person.

You can build your own low HP (1 HP/CI or less) stroker long block for $3600 ($3595). It will be nothing fancy and use all stock based parts. And with stock based parts re-used from original motor. Re-use stock heads with daily driver nothing fancy valve job.

And it's not going to blow up within 1 year.

I don't see why this "Blueprint" company's 408 stroker would be any less reliable than thier 360 motors. Not saying either motor is any good.

It's just a 0.420" extra stroke. If you had a Scat 3.58 crank next to a scat 4.00 crank you couldn't see the difference. But somehow people think Rocket Scientists need to be called in.
Click to expand...
 
At times we tend to think because we pay more for an item it is better than a cheaper one purely because of cost.
Please dont lump me in the "we" there. I can get things cheaper - but I've seen what even friends of mine consider acceptable and do not share their opinion. All my decisions are cost-vs-reward based on my credentials and experience. No more - no less. At eye level on my office wall is the essay by John Ruskin on cost and I earn my living creating and keeping project budgets.

When you list out items and services needed in a shortblock,
You see where charges are inflated or not.
Ever wonder why one shop charges $80 for an oil change and another wants $50?
Same car too.
I'm curious if you know what the differences in the machining operations are - what they do, how they are done, and what equipment does them? These are what goes into the rates shops charge.

I see MRL and moper builds engines here. Brian at IMM out in Cali as well as Shadydell. Shady lists some prices online. I'm sure these four shops will have different price points for the same engine.
Correction - I'm not a shop and I'm not a "professional". I used to be but now cars are just sidework.

Build it right, build it once is true, but I don't think we need to .000 deck a block or put girdles on a daily driver.
That's a difference of opinion. I don't believe in girdles but you can bet your *** if I do the build it will be a perfect deck height, flat, parallel to the crank centerline, and the right finish and if it's getting a longer-than-factory-offered stroke it's getting main studs and align honed. The return on investment is longevity, performance, and economy. I'd rather get the work perfect and get another 2mpg over a life of 60K miles than say "it's only for a daily driver."

mopars are cool but I think we are pricing ourselves out of fun at times.
I disagree. Some individuals may do that - but it's more a situation of "eyes are bigger than stomach" and window shopping. That's why I start with "how much can be spent".
 
To the op, if you are like me and don't have much money, or room for error, you have to research. Learn. Look for deals on everything. Be willing to wait for a cheaper price, just make sure you inspect everything before you buy, if possible. Ask every question you can. At your power level, I think I would just build it, if it were me. But, I am also willing to take responsibility for myself if I screw up. Keep your eyes open, decent used pistons come up for sale every once in a while. Just check them out, ask the right questions, and research. A new cast crank is fairly cheap. Once you get everything, take it to the machine shop and have them make it all fit together. If you did your homework, it will. When you get it back, double check everything. Pay attention to even the smallest details. Make a checklist if you have to. When it is all said and done, you will be alot more satisfied, you will know your engine front to back, and you will have knowledge and experience that is priceless and yours no matter what.
 
moper said:
Build it right, build it once is true, but I don't think we need to .000 deck a block or put girdles on a daily driver.
That's a difference of opinion. I don't believe in girdles but you can bet your *** if I do the build it will be a perfect deck height, flat, parallel to the crank centerline, and the right finish and if it's getting a longer-than-factory-offered stroke it's getting main studs and align honed. The return on investment is longevity, performance, and economy. I'd rather get the work perfect and get another 2mpg over a life of 60K miles than say "it's only for a daily driver."
Click to expand...

I couldn't agree more with this! I've seen it myself, not only on engines I built when I was younger, and thought I knew everything. But others engines who chose not to do any of the above. I believe it makes a difference in longevity, and even performance. There are just things I do now, that I'll never change. I'm still learning new tips and tricks too....And I have a lot to learn.
 
moper said:
I'm curious if you know what the differences in the machining operations are - what they do, how they are done, and what equipment does them? These are what goes into the rates shops charge.

That's a difference of opinion. I don't believe in girdles but you can bet your *** if I do the build it will be a perfect deck height, flat, parallel to the crank centerline, and the right finish and if it's getting a longer-than-factory-offered stroke it's getting main studs and align honed. The return on investment is longevity, performance, and economy. I'd rather get the work perfect and get another 2mpg over a life of 60K miles than say "it's only for a daily driver."

[/COLOR]
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we agree on bottom end being about $2,500 to build and what processes go into that:
torque plate bores
align hones
internally balanced assembly

i think we go apart at your $3,000 top end
$2,000 heads and $1,000 valvetrain is just not in my program
take your $2,500 shortblock and put a $500 top end on it and we have a $3,000 motor
yes, an engine is an air pump and those $500 heads will squeeze that motor like some visegrips on a pair of nuts
but again, not everyone's program is balls to the wall trying to eek out every morsel of HP of an engine
an some point the return of $$$ on HP gains is slight and very costly.

also, hourly rate of the machine shop plays a big part in this
if your rate is $95 an hour but across town it is $75 per hour
big things can be done with an extra $25 an hour

i wonder what the difference is in a $50 hot tank of a block and a $150 hot tank?
 
i think we go apart at your $3,000 top end
$2,000 heads and $1,000 valvetrain is just not in my program
take your $2,500 shortblock and put a $500 top end on it and we have a $3,000 motor
yes, an engine is an air pump and those $500 heads will squeeze that motor like some visegrips on a pair of nuts
but again, not everyone's program is balls to the wall trying to eek out every morsel of HP of an engine
an some point the return of $$$ on HP gains is slight and very costly.

Take my $2500 short and stick $500 heads on it and you'll have valves hitting pistons and oil being sucked down the knurled guides...lol. My point is - it's not "hunting for every morsel of horsepower". It's about performance. I do not consider horsepower to be exclusive. Higher horsepower comes from a higher efficiency, which comes from quality parts and precision machining.
In terms of heads and costs - the valve job alone for me is $500. That's because if you compare the quality of the work, the additional machining actions that are included that other shops may not, and the equipment and staff that does it there are dramatic differences. The guy doing them is a friend of mine who's been doing heads since the mid 80s. He works on a Serdi 104 seat and guide machine and VVR 120 valve grinder. None of those three come cheap and all of them will add horsepower simply by doing what they get paid for.
I've seen $500 heads and I can tell you none are without deficiencies. Whether that's a part that was re-used instad of replaced, or seat angles cut out of round, or gasket surfaces that are not flat, intakes that don't fit, or seat depths that vary... they all have problems and they all will have issues associated with them even on a low rpm driver.

i wonder what the difference is in a $50 hot tank of a block and a $150 hot tank?

Usually the tank and process itself. The cleaning process ussed where I go is a jet wash cabinet cycle, then and airless shot cabinet, then a jet wash again. that's because it cleans much etter than the EPA approved cleaners that have to be used (at least in CT) now. Again - a little knowledge is a big deal. Hot tanks don't get the crud from inside the water jackets very well anymore. If you're wondering why your .030 over truck engine runs hot it may be all the rust, scale, and casting slag that was left in it by the hot tank filled with Simple Green...lol.
 
I know this will be unpopular, given the stroker craze...but...

If 425-450hp is all the original poster needs/wants...why not just build up the 360 without the extra stroke and save some dough? I thought that was an easy HP goal for a 360?

I am currently building up my 340 looking for 420-430hp...I just couldn't justify the extra money unless I was going to go crazy with the HP.

Just my 2 cents,
Paul
 
I got estimate to build 318 stroker & dyno. indy/Imm heads, hyd cam. Looking around 450 hp. Low comp (9.5:1) to run pump gas in NZ. Estimate so could change slightly $8600. This is basically a crate engine ready to go. To build here NZ around $15K.
 
I wouldn't buy ANYONES crate motor...for the power level your looking for a stock stroke 360 will be just fine,i built one for just under $5k with Edelbrock heads parts as follows..

'76 360 block bored .030 and decked
stock cast crank
Speed pro "flat top" pistons/rings
Eagle rods
Edelbrock heads "street port job" nothing crazy
Lunati "voodoo cam" .533/.552 lift
Comp roller rockers
Edelbrock air gap intake
Quickfuel 850 carb..runs 11.70's in my all "steel" '70 duster will have to do till the stroker is built,certainly not complaining:D:D
 
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