Car getting real hot....

Heating / Cooling / AC

  1. AJ/FormS

    AJ/FormS 68 B'cuda fb, Form S clone ... 367/A833/3.55s

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    When you shut it off "hot", and 5 minutes later; does the engine crank?
    If yes it starts right up, then the engine was not hot enough to grab the pistons , nor were the rings butted up. That's a good sign.
    I have an 11/1, 367 with a 4 speed and my starter gear is 3.09 x3.55= 10.97 which is the same as your 2.66 x4.10= 10.91. This gear hits 2800 at 20 mph, and my car, if I had a mind to, would drive forever at that speed/rpm.
    In second I am at 30=2570.
    Your 4.10s would be 30= 2970 in second/2160 in third. IMO not the problem.
    Oh yeah, I am running a 230/237/110 cam .549/.571 lift. and it idles all day at 14* Idle-Timing/ 700 rpm. And I run 87E10 gas full-time at 180psi with alloy heads.

    At one time I did have heating issues with the engine locking up at shut-down. I solved that by increasing the skirt clearance and opening up the top ring-gaps.

    At that time, I also had low-speed heating issues. Here's how I solved those;
    >Milodon hi-Flo pump which is just a HD pump with an anti-cavitation plate mounted on the impeller.
    > I installed a 7-blade, all-steel, hi-attack angle clutch-fan with the curved tips; from a 1973 318Dart with A/C
    > and the 1973 26" rad with it's matching shroud.
    > and a thermostatic clutch fan from an early 2000s Ford pick-up truck, before they went to the screw on fans.
    > a hi-flow- Milodon 180* stat.
    > I restricted my bypass hose and the heater-core is now the primary bypass. And I shut it off for the summer.
    > My water pump is slightly under-driven, so the fan-belt will stay on at 7000/7200
    > I have a 68 Barracuda with a fairly open front grill, and NO A/C.
    > the engine is getting fresh cold air.

    Now this is the part you may be lacking;
    > In my Vacuum-advance distributor, I have a two-stage timing curve. It starts advancing at 1000ish and runs from 14* at idle to 28 at 2800, then slows to all-in at 32/34 at 3200/3400. So on the primary curve, that is .78* per 100 rpm, beginning at 1000rpm.
    > I run a ported V-can that is able to bring in 22* at 12inches vacuum.
    >so; in First at 2000rpm/15mph, that is;
    2000 less 1000/100 x.78 =8* ;Plus 14; plus 22 = 44* of Cruise-Timing.
    Second for me @30mph/2600 and that is;
    2600 less 1000/100 x .78=12.5*;Plus 14; Plus 22= 48* of Cruise-Timing. Yes 48*
    IDK if you can run those numbers with iron heads.

    By IR gun, my system runs between 205*F and 207, no matter what. That big fan, with the T-clutch, takes care of business. Do not pay any attention to certain statements that say this fan sucks 30 horsepower. While it may be true at 6500 when direct-driven, consider this;
    >if it sucked 30 hp at idle, your engine would not even idle at a normal rpm.
    > and after 30/35 mph the rad receives enough ram air, that big fan sorta free-wheels. So the fan, primarily, works from idle to 30ish mph.

    The above is what has worked for me, and I no longer pay any attention to the temperature gauge whatsoever.
    and
    >this combo has gone 93 in the Eighth exactly as described, which at 3457 pounds, the Wallace Calculator says is 433 hp. So that Big, really BIG 7-blade fan is staying.

    BTW-1;
    that Milodon pump has a 5/8 shaft, turned down to receive the .500 spacers.Mine was new in about year 2000, and is still going. So yeah, delivered in Manitoba, that pump was pricey...... but in the long run, pretty darn cheep.
    BTW-2;
    Did I mention that my rad is an ancient 1973 model? It has patches on it's patches.lol. In about 2002 I installed a 7 pound cap, and nothing changed except the patches are now holding, and my hoses are now ancient too.
    BTW-3
    If you run too much Idle-Timing, then the throttles will be too far closed at idle; and so the transfers will not be supplying much fuel. So then, to make it idle, you will have to crank open the mixture screws. Aaaaand then the entire low-speed system will be rich....... and so it can happen that the extra fuel, not having oxygen to react with in the chambers, if it finds some in the headers, will burn there.
    But if simultaneously, your V-can is not working, or it is not supplying the desperately needed low-speed timing, then the mixture may not even be finished burning at the appropriate time, and so continues burning as the piston is falling, and may even continue burning as it exits into the headers. Of course this will not help the overlap cycle at all. This is why a streeter needs a fully functional and well-tuned Vacuum Advance System.

    Happy HotRodding.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2021
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    • ir3333

      ir3333 Well-Known Member

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      is your timing retarded to the point all the heat is in your heads as opposed the the cylinders where it
      will be absorbed? Suspect your fan at idle..especially if it's a clutch fan. A stock fixed 7 blade
      for best cooling.
       
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      • MAPS

        MAPS FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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        OK guys here are some pics to get an idea what I have/dealing with.
        The rad is a Flex-a-lite

        Stant cap, 13 lb
        It's not letting me place the pics I will get again.
        Thanks for everything thus far guys..
        MAPS
         
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        • Early a body

          Early a body Well-Known Member

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          Need to know what kind of fan set up you have. I bought a 66 cuda out of arizona once with a/c it would heat up like you are experiencing , drove me nuts until i stuck my head to adjust the carb and noticed all the air the fan was generating was going straight up- not back towards the engine. I took a look at the fan and some genius flattened out the blades to clear the compressor- this was a slant 6 car so the compressor was lower than a v8 car.

          Definitely get a thermal gun too I have had the gauges read wrong too. They sell them at harbor freight for cheap
           
        • MAPS

          MAPS FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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          Had problems getting the pics up.

          95A1BA8A-A275-48A7-BB05-D6E7FC1523FD.jpeg

          9B68E2B7-9822-46AE-B249-1E7EAAF8B47F.jpeg

          BB26419F-90B3-4FFB-85A6-4810B0082B7C.jpeg

          CCD6FC46-8111-4360-8465-9E564FA9DB14.jpeg

          CEB5280B-0CDE-4F48-AE27-59F6F0194AFB.jpeg

          CB5BF2E5-C02C-45B0-B89A-D9A8FAD443E7.jpeg

          0330CA3E-6C9A-46A6-9551-249E3809578D.jpeg
           
        • Dana67Dart

          Dana67Dart The parts you don't add don't cause you no trouble FABO Gold Member

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          IMHO, the shroud you have is useless and is probably blocking more airflow than helping in any way.
           
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          • RustyRatRod

            RustyRatRod I was born on a Monday. Not last Monday. FABO Gold Member

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            Just a few observations. That fan is a turd. There are a LOT better choices than that tiny blade flex fan. Next up is that shroud. It's blocking too much of the radiator core. Another way to describe it is, it's too close to the radiator. You need more air space between the radiator and shroud, OR you need to cut some holes in the parts that are blocking air flow to the rest of the core.

            Finally, the 13 pound cap. That's designed for a stock radiator with a stock engine at a stock power level. Not one that's producing more power than stock. I would upgrade the cap to a 15lb, either cut some holes in the shroud to expose more radiator core to air flow, or move the shroud back away from the radiator for more space and finally put a GOOD fan on it like for instance a Chrysler 7 blade or the staggered 5 blade fan. Doing those things will very likely solve any over heating issues.

            All that said, a somewhat related story.

            Kitty and I went to Macon today in Vixen. First time we've driven it that far with the new engine. From Jones County to Macon, to Gray and back out to Jones County where we live. Probably about a 75 mile circle. Or triangle....or what the hell ever. lol

            It was HOT today. Got up to like 97 with over 50% humidity. We probably should have taken the Escape, but Vixen hadn't been driven in several days, so we took her. Got into Macon and as usual stop and go, stop and go. Picked up the stuff at the machine shop and we decided to stop by Nu Way for some hot dogs for lunch. Five cars back in the drive through, so I cut it off. Finally got up to the window, got our stuff and started home. All this time the temp gauge only got to the 1/4 mark. It was a little warmer today than it usually runs. Normally it runs barely 1/8 the way up. It also didn't cool back off to the 1/8 mark on the way home on the road where it usually runs. This is because it reached the point to where it got "as hot" as it probably ever will rollin down the road. We took it back out tonight, because I had men's chorus practice in Gray at 7PM. By then it had cooled off about ten degrees and she was back to her 1/8 way up self again.

            Now, there are several more things I plan on doing to help....not that it needs it, but the cooler the better, so I'm going to do it. That includes making some panels out of sheet metal to close off all the holes behind the radiator support under the car in the K frame. This will stop air flow from going up into the engine bay from the bottom and avoiding going through the grille. I also plan to add a small air dam like the ones on the 69 Z28. This will push air out front, making the air that was going under the car, go through the grille. I also have a hard to find 5 blade staggered blade solid fan I am going to put on as well. That will move more air at low speeds and cool it off some more there too. I WISH I could find an early A body slant 6 fan shroud, but good luck with THAT. lol Again not that I'm hurtin with engine temps by a long shot, it's just that any little thing you can will help. All you have to do is look at any newer car and they all have those mods done. So don't give up on it, because there's lots of stuff left you can do.
             
            Last edited: Jun 15, 2021
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            • RustyRatRod

              RustyRatRod I was born on a Monday. Not last Monday. FABO Gold Member

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              ....as tits on a boarhog. lol
               
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              • 512Stroker

                512Stroker We are all here because we are not all there.

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              • RustyRatRod

                RustyRatRod I was born on a Monday. Not last Monday. FABO Gold Member

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                That's a dang goodun, too!
                 
              • 1969383S

                1969383S FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                Why do all these overheating issues end up this way!

                Keep it simple, Go back to a more stock set-up. Get rid of that Cap and fan!

                Use a High flow Stat, I prefer a 180 Milodon and a High flow pump with the Mods you have. Use the 7 blade fixed with a stock shroud, spacer and radiator. If you can not do it, then the shroud needs to be widened a bit with the correct fan spacer and 7 blade fixed fan! Verify your gauge with a Laser temp gun. Home Depot sells a nice unit from Klein that I also use in my Grilling world!
                 
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                • RustyRatRod

                  RustyRatRod I was born on a Monday. Not last Monday. FABO Gold Member

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                  I don't know man. Over heating is just one problem I have never had trouble with. Ever. ....and I've had some pretty hawt street/race stuff through the years, too.
                   
                • 1969383S

                  1969383S FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                  It may not even be an overheating issue though! Occasional 200 IMO is Not!

                  Nice clean radiator is certainly a must! Based on the pics though I am going after the fan and shroud first. My car with similar equipment would run as high as 220. Today it rarely gets to 190!
                   
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                  • RustyRatRod

                    RustyRatRod I was born on a Monday. Not last Monday. FABO Gold Member

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                    You're right. It's not. However, on a day like today that I described above, one that normally runs 200, could see 220. That's gettin in uncomfortable territory. That's why I like them as cool as I can get them. Plenty of leeway.
                     
                  • MAPS

                    MAPS FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                    Ok as always, I take the people's opinion and thoughts on A Body cars here akin to biblical.
                    As stated I will listen and follow on your thoughts.
                    I hear what you are saying, especially on the shroud, fan, cap etc... but can you someone please tell me why I never, ever, had this problem.
                    (Started after the engine rebuild last yr)

                    In fact I used to have friends that did not like coming to where I would hang near my place (having mostly Chevy cars there did not help lol) because the traffic was heavy coming to the port.
                    I on the other hand I would be in traffic, bumper to bumper and never had the Guage go over 160 (without a thermostat as well)

                    This is just as bad (sometimes worse) not knowing why it didn't overheat before, compared to overheating now.
                    I just don't let it get passed 200-205 degrees and I shut the car off.

                    Until now it's never overflowed into the canister next to the rad that's been on the car from day one of the restoration and no water had ever been in it (overflow from overheating, etc)
                    Again, thank you all for all your input so far.
                    I'm going to start with the cap they had on the car and slowly change one thing at a time. Changing too many things at once I've come to realize brings other problems and you don't know then what may have caused it.

                    In fact I was to swap headers and I haven't done that yet. Thank God cause I would have thought maybe that's causing the problem now.
                    Lastly, I thought maybe the water pump has become defective. I don't know. Zoi this is why I am asking and trying to learn.

                    I never thought things can just go "kaput" with no warning but last year I had a problem (again asked the pros here) that when I was in 3rd gear at about 2800 rpm the car would start to shake hard, the transmission really. It felt like it was coming from there or the rear end would start shaking/vibrating something awful.
                    I was told a few things. I started with checking to see if the driveshaft was balanced.

                    I could not for the life of me deduce how you can park the car for winter storage in Oct. The car is running fine and then come April you take it out, rebuilt engine too as mentioned earlier and now it's vibrating for no reason. It's not like the car hit/dragged the shaft on the ground etc.
                    I went and had it checked and balanced and the vibration just went away. This is how I started to realize somethings don't need to give you ample time to know something is coming down the pike. They just do. Therfore the water pump just dropping dead does not sound far fetched to me any longer. lol

                    You guys are great.
                    Thank you.
                    MAPS
                     
                  • Tooljunkie

                    Tooljunkie King of cobble/master of the broken bolt FABO Gold Member

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                    I have to agree with the fan/shroud/cap. Not quite good enough. A little more zoom built into your fresh engine would create a little more heat. I bet you would stand a better chance without the shroud all together.
                     
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                    • bob mCcarty

                      bob mCcarty famous bob

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                    • RustyRatRod

                      RustyRatRod I was born on a Monday. Not last Monday. FABO Gold Member

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                      Lemmie get you a couple of pictures......brb...
                       
                    • RustyRatRod

                      RustyRatRod I was born on a Monday. Not last Monday. FABO Gold Member

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                      Take a look at this. This is kinda a progression of fans. It's by far not all of them, but will kinda give you an idea of what went on through the years.

                      First, there's the basic four blade solid fan. Came on slant sixes and small V8s with no AC.

                      IMG_20210419_120802.jpg

                      Next is this one. These are gettin kinda hard to find. It came on small V8s early on. You'll notice how the the blades on these two first fans are full width all the way to the end, but they lack that turned up edge on the end. That's because Chrysler was still learning about what worked.

                      IMG_20210419_120807.jpg

                      This third one is really gettin hard to find. It's basically the same as what you get with the Mopar Performance Viscous Fan Package, but in solid form. You notice the ends are turned up. They found out that this moves even more air. This is the fan I'm fixin to put on Vixen. It does have a drawback. It's damned heavy. But, since it mounts in the center, that kinda negates "some" of that weight. No DOUBT it'll move a lot more air than the four blade on it now.

                      IMG_20210419_120816.jpg

                      Finally there's this one. It's an early Mopar Performance Viscous Fan Package. I say early, because it's one that uses the bimetal strip, instead of the bimetal spring to control lockup. They didn't work quite as well as the spring units, but they did work. I don't have enough room for it, but If I did, I'd use it and replace the clutch with a Hayden heavy duty unit. Again, you can see how the blades are full width all the way to the end and they turn up on the end. In comparison to your fan, @MAPS, this fan and the five blade solid staggered fan before it will probably move over twice the air your fan will. If you want to stay solid, this next to last fan is what you want to find. If you want to go clutch fan, I recommend the staggered five blade MP fan. I've argued the point before to be disagreed with, but that five blade staggered design moves more air than any other belt driven fan Chrysler ever made. It's in print, right in the Mopar Perfomance book. Larry Shepard and all those other Chrysler engineers weren't stupid. They knew through trial and error....and sometimes by pure accident what works and what doesn't. In fact, Larry is still kickin and doin well. I talk with him on Facebook from time to time. Anyway, maybe this will help you make an informed decision on a fan. I hope it will anyway.

                      IMG_20210419_120822.jpg
                       
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                      • Tooljunkie

                        Tooljunkie King of cobble/master of the broken bolt FABO Gold Member

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                        The offset is to deal with turbulence if i understand it correctly, like cavitation on a marine prop. It may also help with the noise. The 4 blade fan in my 51 Fargo is godawful loud.
                         
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                        • RustyRatRod

                          RustyRatRod I was born on a Monday. Not last Monday. FABO Gold Member

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                          That's right. It smooths out air flow, which leads to more flow. Similar to those doohickeys you stick in the air cleaner.....stub stack that's it. I couldn't think of the name. But you don't need those with a "good" air cleaner, like most of the better Moroso ones, for example, as they are already shaped like that.

                          But yes, and I've been argued with that before. The offset blades were originally brought about to break up the air flow and smooth it out like you said......much the same as the staggered and different size cooling blades on some alternators. Same principle. The noise reduction was a side benefit they actually lucked up on. lol
                           
                        • AJ/FormS

                          AJ/FormS 68 B'cuda fb, Form S clone ... 367/A833/3.55s

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                          I guess that would depend on what you call a rebuild, and what else you did at the same time.
                           
                        • MAPS

                          MAPS FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                          Well the engine was removed changed cam the heads were redone asking with that the crank was changed only things used were the pistons add the engine had been rebuilt original a few yrs earlier but had really low mileage (less than 3,000 miles) after having a problem with a lifter dropping I decided to take the engine out and redo it the way I wanted to, lime I said different cam, heads, lifters, valves etc.. The only part that remained the same were the pistons and the induction,
                          The car never went above 160 before that's why I was thinking, maybe the water pump went ?
                          Thanks.
                          MAPS
                           
                        • Snake

                          Snake Mopar Nut

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                          i have that fan siting around it has #sss 21089 worth anything .
                           
                        • RustyRatRod

                          RustyRatRod I was born on a Monday. Not last Monday. FABO Gold Member

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                          There's four in that picture. Which one are you talkin about?
                           
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