Carb/timing procedure

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MomsDuster

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Let me preface this with, I DO NOT have any problems or issues with my car at this point. This is just a general question on what your process is.

When using manifold vacuum for vacuum advance, do you adjust your carb/carbs idle mixture and idle speed with it connected or disconnected?
If you adjust with it disconnected, do you just accept where the idle speed and idle mixture end up when you reconnect the vacuum advance?

And go……

:popcorn:
 
Mopar vacuum advances are not hooked to manifold vacuum, they are attached to ported vacuum, above the carb butterfly. Disconnecting the vacuum line during timing is only a safety concern to eliminate any possibility of a false reading. Set timing with vacuum disconnected. Vacuum advance should have no effect on idle quality.
 
Some guys DO use manifold vacuum for advance, I do not. But I would say that you are likely going to have to "rough it in" with the vacuum disconnected, OR "rough it in" with a hand vacuum pump activating the vacuum can. This first, seems to me, is because when the thing is "running normally" the manifold vacuum will be high and fully advanced the vacuum can. ----- This is all because as you tune the carb, the vacuum is obviously going to change, and the TIMING will then change, which will then affect the idle speed. You could get yourself into a "feedback loop" where one changes, the other changes, and the first one changes because of it.
 
Regardless of the source, disconnect and plug the vacuum. Set your initial then do the a/f and adjust your idle speed to what's appropriate. If you chose the manifold vac source, once it's plugged in, just reduce the idle speed back to your original setting.
 
Let me preface this with, I DO NOT have any problems or issues with my car at this point. This is just a general question on what your process is.

When using manifold vacuum for vacuum advance, do you adjust your carb/carbs idle mixture and idle speed with it connected or disconnected?
If you adjust with it disconnected, do you just accept where the idle speed and idle mixture end up when you reconnect the vacuum advance?

And go……

:popcorn:
Typically Mopar uses a ported vacuum there's no signal to the vacuum advance canister therefore the timing stays stable at whatever it was initially set to until the engine is revved up to RPM and the advanced weights extends advancing the timing plate.
In that example set the idle mix with it connected or not...because only the full advance timing will be effected by it and that's at rpm, not idle*
What you're asking kind of answers itself, and the way that you worded it ..if you know that setting your idle before hooking up manifold vacuum 'which is constant not ported' will lead to idle speed changes obviously because you do seem to understand that hooking up that canister to manifold vacuum will immediately Advance the timing therefore changing the mixture required... ta da...there's your answer. MANIFOLD VAC- NO YOU DO NOT SET IDLE MIX WITH VAC ADV DISCONNECTED WHEN USING MANIFOLD VAC...

PORTED VAC-YOU CANSET YOUR IDLE MIX WITH OR WITHOUT THE VAC ADV CONECTED WHEN USING PORTED VAC SOURCE BECAUSE THERES NO SIGNAL TILL THE THROTTLE PLATES EXPOSE THE ORIFACE AND ACTIVATE IT.
 
If all the engine did was idle with manifold vacuum i would agree. But keep in mind the off idle starts from a stop lower the timing during that load. I always cheated my a/f to the rich side anyways. I think we're just picking around the edges on this and i have no problem playing with the carb tune regardless. I used to do it all the time. :)
 
I will have more to say later, but for now:
- it is rare for MVA to not provide a benefit over PVA. Exceptions would be locked dist, a ton of initial advance ort elec box that advances idle timing.
- Ch did use MVA. Through the 1970s decade. With engines loaded up with emissions crap, engines ran hot. Sometimes too hot. So at a pre-determined temp to prevent overheating, a temp switch switched from the useless PVA to MVA.....
MVA uses the A/F more efficiently at idle, reduces engine load & an efficient engine runs cooler...
 
Don't want get to far off the OP's question which was about manifold vac adv. I just want to say that on a engine that pushes the initial and is close to being octane challenged, the ported system can lead to a rattle off idle. Like in a original higher compression muscle car running on today's pump gas. In that case i'd use manifold vac only.
 
If you have an automatic transmission, you can get away with just about anything , from idle to stall. But
if you have a manual trans, street-car, it is very easy to have too much low-rpm and idle power, by using
too much low-rpm and idle-timing. Three things can/will happen;
1) the low-rpm will get jumpy, which will telegraph thru the drivetrain, and into you gas-pedal foot which will then make it even worse. The only cure for this is to step on the clutch pedal and slip it.
2) the Throttle at idle, will be nearly closed, and this could dry up the transfer slots to the point that you get a tip-in sag, or, a really annoying tip-in sag, or a really really .........
3) It will become impossible to idle the engine down far enough, and so your minimum roadspeed with street-friendly gears, ends up being quite fast. certainly too fast for parading. And it will bang going into gear as the pump is making close to max pressure.
IMO there is no good reason to have all this happen. .
I have tuned the mighty 292/292/108 to run with properly synchronized Transfer slots, down to 550 rpm in first gear, pulling the 3650 pound car around the parking lot with a starter gear of 2.66 x 3.55=9.44, it did this at 5* advance, yes 5 degrees. And it took throttle relatively smartly, considering where it was starting from. This was 4.7 mph, so still too fast for parading. So I got me a 3.09 x 3.55=10.97 starter gear for 4.0 mph....... which was still too fast. I pulled that cam out, in favor of a 270/276/110 which would do the same trick but at 500rpm, for a roadspeed of 3.7mph, this is parade-able, all day long. BTW I run that baby at 207*F
Like I said, manual-transmission street-cars require spot-on idle tune

BTW
I do not use a vacuum gauge for tuning the idle. To tune for the highest idle vacuum, will have you horribly advanced, and most street-cars will rattle almost right away with increasing load.
Try this; get your Transfer slots synced up, then do not move the throttles.
Install a vacuum gauge on the manifold. Then without looking at the timing, just advance the timing until the rpm no longer increases, and simultaneously, neither does the vacuum. Now read the timing. Don't be surprised to see a number of 25 to 30 or more degrees. Even pushing 40*.. That is what the engine wants at whatever the RPM increased to.
Now consider how you are gonna build a timing curve to go from there to Max Power-Timing at about 3500rpm, give or take. and
If you have an A/T
Consider how hard this is gonna bang into gear from N/P.
And how hard you are gonna have to push on the brake-pedal to hold her back.
But you say; you can just idle her down. Well sure you can, which shuts off the transfers so, as you go, you'll have to increase the fuel supply from the Mixture screws, so it will keep running. Ok so say you get her back to 700 or so, now put her into gear and gently open the throttle as you would while taking off normally. I would be very surprised if the engine did not cough and die.
Ok but just suppose that by some miracle, the engine doesn't stall; operating like this, the low speed system will be very very rich when the transfers come back on line....... because the mixture screws are just about as rich as they can be.
Furthermore, if you re-timed your accelerator pump to cover the tip-in sag, then of course, the pump is spritzing every time you tickle the gas pedal, and there goes your fuel economy.
The best advice I can offer is to use the vacuum gauge for what it was intended, namely to be a diagnostic tool. Otherwise, just leave it in your toolbox; it is worthless to be used as a tool to help set the idle-timing.
 
I have been reading up on the Ford spark delay valves (called different by other maker) and it may help the "off idle pinging" crowd. This valve sits inline with the distributor and the ported vacuum fitting of the carb. Ported is nothing at idle, set your timing with it installed as its an open to atmosphere line. When you get off idle, the ported vacuum starts to come in and it will take 6-10 seconds for vacuum to bleed through this valve to the advance pot for a slow advance. Its free flowing the other way so when you get off the gas and close the vacuum source to the ported vacuum line, it will return to static timing immediately. Next time your in the bone yard, grab one off an early 80's carbed motor. Mine was green and the color seems to matter how slow they react to vacuum. Arrow notes direction of resistance (toward vacuum source) suck on one end to make sure its the restricted side as they were made in both directions (P for pressure on one model) for different applications.
 
To continue on from post #7....
Many racers, especially before we got elec 'boxes' that were able to set ign parameters, used to lock their dists. Some still do it. So, if it was locked at, say, 36* that means:
- it cranks at 36*
- it idles at 36*
- it runs from 0 to max rpm @ 36*.
With hi power mini starters now available, there is no problem cranking with that timing.
Another trick you see on performance engines is to have a centri curve in the dist, but have it come in quickly. 'All in' by 1200 or 1500 rpm. So what is different in ign timing requirements between 1200 & the 900 rpm idle speed. Um.......nothing. Which is why MVA does the same thing as far as timing goes as a locked or quick-curve dist, but with an important benefit. VA is load sensitive. It drops away under load. Important for minimising detonation.

Any body contemplating using MVA [ a good idea if the combo can use it ] should never, ever try it with a stock or non-adj VA unit. All you will get is erratic & unreliable performance....& probably get on a forum like this & say MVA is no good!
 
To continue on from post #7....
Many racers, especially before we got elec 'boxes' that were able to set ign parameters, used to lock their dists. Some still do it. So, if it was locked at, say, 36* that means:
- it cranks at 36*
- it idles at 36*
- it runs from 0 to max rpm @ 36*.
With hi power mini starters now available, there is no problem cranking with that timing.
Another trick you see on performance engines is to have a centri curve in the dist, but have it come in quickly. 'All in' by 1200 or 1500 rpm. So what is different in ign timing requirements between 1200 & the 900 rpm idle speed. Um.......nothing. Which is why MVA does the same thing as far as timing goes as a locked or quick-curve dist, but with an important benefit. VA is load sensitive. It drops away under load. Important for minimising detonation.

Any body contemplating using MVA [ a good idea if the combo can use it ] should never, ever try it with a stock or non-adj VA unit. All you will get is erratic & unreliable performance....& probably get on a forum like this & say MVA is no good!


Apologies for the redundancy, but locking out the timing at “X” degrees means you have no idea what your timing is at other than whatever RPM you look at with a timing light.

ALL ignition boxes retard with RPM. All of them. Where they start to retard and how much they retard is a guess unless you put the distributor and box on a machine and check it.

Also, there has never been an engine designed that ran better with a locked out ignition.

If it was possible the OEM’s would have done it already. Think of the cost savings in not designing a complete curve.
 
Locking the D is for drag-race cars that just operate in pretty much two modes, namely idle and WOT, and normally will not operate under load in the rpm below say 3000/3500.
But for Street-cars;
The Mechanical system is strictly there for two reasons;
1) to reduce the ignition timing below that rpm (3000 to 3500), to make sure that the engine is never over-advanced in that lower-rpm zone,which costs both power and fuel. and
2) to start the fire at the correct time so that peak cylinder pressure will occur at the right crank-position, such that the maximum amount of that pressure can be delivered to the crank at the best time for it to be transmitted to the flywheel.
Too early and the engine fights itself as the peak pressure occurs before the crank is ready to receive it.
Too late and the potential for peak pressure is lowered, as the expanding gasses now chase after the falling piston.
This crank position window is very small, perhaps as small as 3 degrees. This is why we hunt so long and hard to find it. Well I guess some of us, lol.

The vacuum advance is a load-sensitive device, that is there to make up the difference between what the engine wants at Part Throttle, and what the Mechanical is able to deliver. If these systems are or can be, coordinated and synchronized correctly, for as many load and rpm settings as possible, this gives you the best potential for maximum torque and fuel-economy.
In some to many cases, the Idle-timing has to be retarded, either to make the engine less powerful at low-rpm, or so that an effective Power-timing curve can be built, or an all-in number can be achieved at the right time.

If you have a streeter with a hi-stall say over 3000/3500, you can get away with a pretty sloppy advance-tune, on account of the engine is like a race car now, with very little load ever going into the crank in those lower rpms.

If you have a streeter with a manual trans, and
you do not have a distributor machine, and
you do not have a way of changing the timing while driving, and/or
no access to a chassis-dyno, and
you really have a strong desire to clean up your low rpm ignition timing, then;
be prepared to spend many many hours changing the distributor guts, many of them at the side of the road.
And if your goal is Power with Fuel-Economy, the reward with close to perfect timing, will initially be substantial. Then you can spend the rest of your days chasing the last few degrees.
I'll tell you right off; if you are currently cruising at an rpm of about 2350,plus/minus 100, and you expect fuel economy to increase dramatically at less rpm, good luck with that. Your manual-trans car, depending on your cam and available cylinder pressure, will want a boatload of timing advance; Far more that the factory-type distributor can ever deliver. You will need a stand-alone timing computer, to even get close.
>Typically, your Mechanical curve will deliver .8degree per 100 rpm, and hopefully it does not start before 900rpm. This means that by 2250, your mechanical is likely to be ~10.5 degrees; rounds to 11.
> if you want your street-cammed SBM to run half-decent below 750 rpm, your Base Idle-Timing will be ~14 degrees, for a total of 11 +14=25 at 2250.
> If you correctly modify your Vcan, you can get 22 to 24 degrees out of it. I got 22*. Trailbeast got 24*. So say you get 22*, adding that to the other at cruise Rpm you get 25 +22=47
> I guarantee you that this is NOT enough already! Your SBM will want about 7 to 10 more degrees for best fuel-economy. The slower the cruise-rpm, the worse this becomes. So then without a timing computer, your only option is to increase the Idle-timing. Adding 8 to the 14 mentioned, you are now up to 47+8=55.. Which is close enough. However, this mucks up ALL the rest of your timing systems!..... so now you are back inside the D swapping out parts. And this is how it goes...........
> If these things are important to you, then I highly recommend to install a dash-mounted, dial-back, adjustable timing module, so you can adjust the timing electronically while driving. With it, I was able to achieve phenomenal fuel-economy even geared down to 75=1850/ 65=1600. My device has a range of 15 degrees.
If you get this right, your hi-compression engine/ manual-trans / hiway friendly geared car, will be a dream to drive, and you will want to drive it all the time.
I chose a 360 to have the low-rpm torque to run any hi-way gear I chose to. That, of course, reduces my hi-way rpm. If you have a smaller engine, this just means you will likely have to run more gear and cruise at a higher rpm. By the time you get to about 2800, the Total Cruise-timing can be up to say 54 degrees without the help of a timing computer, which should be close enough. Whether or not you want to cruise at 2800 is another story. Plus the biggest power-thieves to steady-state fuel-economy are; road-speed, vehicle-weight, and engine-rpm.
Inside the engine, the biggest thieves are valve spring pressure and ring-friction. In a performance street-engine, you can't do much about those, but you can reduce your engine rpm pretty easily.
 
Rat,
You missed an important word in the second line of post #11. The word 'racers'.

Never said, or recommended, that locked ign be used by OEMs.
And have to disagree that a car has 'never' run better with locked ign. Mine does, with 35*. And there are plenty of others, especially race cars.
As to the boxes retarding with rpm that is most likely because of magnetic p/ups being used. As the rpm increases, the AC sine wave becomes distorted & retards the ign. More here: www.worldphaco.net
 
Good GAWD, all the guy asked was HOW to do something.
 
Good GAWD, all the guy asked was HOW to do something.
It's just not that simple around here anymore.
the basic answer doesn't exist to some.
They have a specific torque they use on their oil filter, they have it down to the inch pounds. lol
 
Rat,
You missed an important word in the second line of post #11. The word 'racers'.

Never said, or recommended, that locked ign be used by OEMs.
And have to disagree that a car has 'never' run better with locked ign. Mine does, with 35*. And there are plenty of others, especially race cars.
As to the boxes retarding with rpm that is most likely because of magnetic p/ups being used. As the rpm increases, the AC sine wave becomes distorted & retards the ign. More here: www.worldphaco.net


Disagree all you want. You’re still wrong. Even “race” engines need a curve.

Go look up SLEW RATE. All electronics have it. That’s why they retard.
 
Let me preface this with, I DO NOT have any problems or issues with my car at this point. This is just a general question on what your process is.

When using manifold vacuum for vacuum advance, do you adjust your carb/carbs idle mixture and idle speed with it connected or disconnected?
If you adjust with it disconnected, do you just accept where the idle speed and idle mixture end up when you reconnect the vacuum advance?

And go……

:popcorn:

I bet you didn't think you'd start this much of a **** storm, did you?? :rofl:
 
Let me preface this with, I DO NOT have any problems or issues with my car at this point. This is just a general question on what your process is.

When using manifold vacuum for vacuum advance, do you adjust your carb/carbs idle mixture and idle speed with it connected or disconnected?
If you adjust with it disconnected, do you just accept where the idle speed and idle mixture end up when you reconnect the vacuum advance?

And go……

:popcorn:

Connected
 
If I was intent on using manifold vacuum, I would set mixture and idle speed in gear with vacuum connected.
With an auto transmission I always setup my carburetor in gear. takes all the guess work out. lol
 
If I was intent on using manifold vacuum, I would set mixture and idle speed in gear with vacuum connected.
With an auto transmission I always setup my carburetor in gear. takes all the guess work out. lol


As RRR once said…PUZACTLY.
 
Well Rat, I don't know where you have been the last 70 yrs, but:
- I am not wrong
- untold numbers of race engines over the years have used locked dists. And guess what, they don't have a 'curve'....because that is what a locked dist eliminates.
 
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