Charging system

[Muad'Dib15]

So right now I'm in the planning stages of rewiring the barracuda. So I'm drawing up the wire hareness in their separate components so I can more easily understand it so when I go to wire the car I have something to reference back to so I understand what I'm doing. I'm running a flamethrower ignitor 2 dizzy so I've jumped the ballast resistor. This picture is my understanding of the charging system so far based on the wiring diagrams I have on hand. If I'm reading this right the alternator can only charge the battery through the ammeter correct? That's literally the only place where they run into each other. Otherwise they're completely independent systems. And this is the reason why these systems suck? I'm also not understanding how Ignition 2 works. I read something about one being hot only in run and the other on in start. Is that J2 and J3 respectively? Because it seems to me that J3 draws its power from the battery, through J1 and then through to the coil. Whereas J2 is part of the alt loop but doesn't look like it would power the coil unless jumped to J3 like I have now done. Please help me understand.

 

[Dana67Dart]

Save yourself trouble and go to classiccarwiring.com and buy your cars full color wiring diagram.

Also @Mattax has access to electronic wiring diagrams that can isolate separate systems.

In a nut shell.

Starting run cir.

Ignition key has 2 positions and 3 outputs.

IGN 1 is Run and it powers the ballast resister which then powers the coil


IGN 2 is the Start cir, it bypasses the ballast resister to provide full battery voltage to the coil during cranking of start.

S terminal is the power to the starter relay to energies the relay to crank the engine


IGN 1 and IGN 2 are never on at the same time.

ACC powers some circuits, radio, wipers, turn signals and heater, and is powered when the key is in ACC or Run

IGN 1 also powers the alternator field and electric choke

I applaud your trying to understand each cir.

As for the charging cir yes, alt output to alt guage to battery.

 

[Muad'Dib15]

OK. Thanks that confirms a lot of what I suspected. I finally bit the bullet and ordered the classic wiring schematic. I'm probably just going to use this thread as a general questions guide for all things electrical as I go along the different circuits.

You mentioned that ign 2 and S are the two outputs for starting the car. Is there anything wrong with combining them so I have one less wire going to the switch? Or would it be better to just leave it as is? My plan is to simplify as needed and protect switches that really should be, dump the ammeter, and add in some new circuits for future modifications down the line. Also get rid of the blade connections where possible and use aptiv or just newer connectors in general.

My next picture is Headlight circuit with the "to be added" relays to the headlights plus a fuse that goes into B1 from the "to be installed" fusebox. Do I need to worry about wire gauge here for the relays at all for battery in? I also saw that the tail lights are fused into B2 and that the front parking lights turn off once the headlights turn on. Could I just wire all four to the R terminal for parking lights and then run the brakes separately since they don't go through the HL switch?

Note: fan, horn, and brake lights will be always hot, headlights will be on ACC/Run power. I haven't decided which would be better yet but I'm leaning towards ACC to make starting easier.
Does that mean I can wire pin 86 directly to the battery and as long as 30 isn't on from the key I won't be able to turn them on? And always hot can be done by putting 30 and 86 together and using the ground as a switch such as a temp sensor and the horn button? There's a guy on YT called wiring rescue and I've been watching him religiously for the past couple weeks. He lays out the entire circuit on a peg board and goes through it in exacting detail. I'm trying to follow this video in general. I know he uses a GM switch but most of it I think will translate almost directly over.

 

[Mattax]

Yes, no, yes, no.

The diagrams in the FSM are about as good as you can find.
Redrawing the circuits of interest is SOP, and was recommended in both Master Tech Service Conference sessions about how to use the diagram.

The alternator and the battery are both power supplies. Each has a strength and a weakness. But its basically a simple system that works the same way a water pump and cistern or water tower work. Another similar system is a air compressor and tank, except we rarely see those split.

The ammeter shows if the battery is charging or discharging. That's it. Nothing mysterious or terrible about it. Having one line from the battery means only one fusible link is needed. Better yet that link is not between the power supply (alternator) and the stuff its running.

Yes the starter relayfeed S2 and the ignition start feed J3 must be seperate. J3 is hot when the key is run position because its tied into J2A feeding the coil.

And yes I've posted diagrams of circuits.

Master tech Service Conference Index:

Master Technician Service Conference - Chrysler's Training for Mechanics

The Imperial Mailing List Online Car Club is dedicated to the preservation, appreciation and restoration of Imperials and Chrysler Imperials of all years, models and body-styles.

www.web.imperialclub.info

In PDF format
www.mymopar.com

 

[Mattax]

I would say the factory team had a reason for just about everything they did. Some of us are now old enough and experienced enough to now be a bit humbler about "improving" the "stupid" things the factory did. Also maybe a bit wiser in asking the factory system to do things it was never intended to do (like 'just' adding EFI)

Posts 13 and 14 cover the main circuits and the gages-sending unit circuits.

66 Barracuda gauge problems

Gday everyone, Posting from Australia. I have a '66 Barracuda imported here 20 years ago. Poor thing has had a rough, unloved life, but it's a formula S and very few of those here so I thought it was worth saving. So 20 years of life gets in the way of getting this car up and running but...

www.forabodiesonly.com

Headlight and parking/tail light feed. (Barracuda in '66 might have front parking lights go off when headlights go on, In '67 they stay on)

1966 Valiant Engine wiring harness

I’m looking for a good/affordable engine wiring harness for my 1966 Plymouth Valiant. 225 Slant Six. It’s pretty brutal under the hood, wires all painted black and some sketchy connections. Somehow it all still works but I’d love to know it’s not going to burn my house down.

www.forabodiesonly.com

Dome light

dome light

on my head light switch I have 2 wires coming out for the dome and door. WHY. Are they to be wired together , separate , just use one ? Any help would be appreciated.

www.forabodiesonly.com

 

[Dana67Dart]

Is there anything wrong with combining them so I have one less wire going to the switch? Or would it be better to just leave it as is?

they are separate for a reason, it has to do with back-feeding the starter relay. MATTAX pinpointed the back feed through the ballast resister. ign 2 provides a bypass to the coil and then ign 1 takes over, that means if ign 2 is tied to the starter relay power can back feed from the output of the ballast to the starter relay.

Or would it be better to just leave it as is?

To me that is the best plan. and buying (i know its expensive) premade factory harnesses is the way to go

My plan is to simplify as needed and protect switches that really should be, dump the ammeter, and add in some new circuits for future modifications down the line. Also get rid of the blade connections where possible and use aptiv or just newer connectors in general.

If you really want to "simplify" things you could run all high amperage devices (headlights, parking lights, turn signals, heater motor, etc off their own individual relays like a modern car. It would make tracing out circuits easier GM style Watertight connectors are easy to make up BUT all of your switches and devices will use SAE or blade terminals so then you have a connector going to a pigtail to a connector.

 

[Muad'Dib15]

Yes, that was my plan. The electric fan, fuel pump, headlights, starter, and horn are all getting relays installed as well as fuses. I understand that the factory did things a certain way but to me if I can make things work safer, more efficiently, slightly modular and most important just plain nicer, I'd feel much better with it. I do want to add multiple things that will add a fair bit of draw so seeing a harness described as "adequate for the day and underpowered now“ doesn't make me want to reuse it even if it is new. I checked after work and it looks like my parking lights stay on with the headlights. So that's easy enough to copy. My main reason for wanting to do a brand new custom harness is partly for the satisfaction of doing so and partly to integrate all of things I want to add into one system rather than patching a bunch of things on top of each other like the Germans did with their 80s BMWs lol. I realize there are certain things that I'll have to compromise on in regards to connectors and pigtails, but I can live with that. Those will be on an as needed basis.

So regarding the starter circuit, I guess I'll just leave it then. Tail lights look pretty straight forward so I'll do those next. I'm assuming just a single fuse should be fine for 4 1157s and one b56. Same with interior lights.

 

[Dana67Dart]

I'm assuming just a single fuse should be fine for 4 1157s and one b56. Same with interior lights

fuses protyect the wire so the load of the bulbs and the AWG of the wire have to be in agreement. wire too small and it becomes the fuse. Fuse too big and you have the same thing. heavier wire with lighter fuse is a good combo.

like 16AWG for a circuit that would have been 18AWG and if the cir had a 15A fuse that would be fine as the wire can hold up longer. too small of a fuse and it will pop for no reason

 

[Mattax]

Probably best to redesign the system. It new strategy to deal with the new goals. That stuff will be running on battery with the engine off. Additionally the battery will get drawn down further. As a result there will be high charge rates unless you have a way to control that because the recharge voltage is fixed.

Played around with some ideas in this thread, including ways to monitor the charge rate.

Fusible link or not?

I am going to install a relay to power a fused distribution block to power things like the line-lock, the efi, distributor, ignition box. Since I can put appropriate fuses for each item, would be beneficial or detrimental to put a fusible link in the line to power the relay. If so, would you...

www.forabodiesonly.com

And more recently here without an ammeter.

Do I really need the wire from the alternator to the bulkhead connector?

This question is for the guys that like wiring and electrical challenges, if those type of people actually exist . I have a 5.9 Magnum running the factory EFI and 46rh transmission in my 70 Dart, and it’s awesome (for me). It all works really well but when I initially did everything a couple...

www.forabodiesonly.com

Good luck and keep folks updated. It will be a lot of work but could be rewarding if you like that sort of project.

 

[Dana67Dart]

It will be a lot of work but could be rewarding if you like that sort of project.

I'm waiting till he gets to the turn signal and e flasher, brake cir, That's the one that makes my head spin!

 

[Muad'Dib15]

Oh I absolutely agree haha. It's a flipping mess. It makes sense on why they do it that way, but dang it's a rats nest in there. It'd be so much easier to just have separate amber bulbs in there rather than making one light pull triple duty.

I looked around and I don't actually have Hazards anywhere. It shouldn't be too hard to wire in a switch in an unobtrusive place unless I can find another $400 system to plug into it.

Rather ironically, Aptiv actually makes those blade connectors, it's called the metri pack 56 series. My plan was to use the 280 series. I found it on waytek just now.

 

[Dana67Dart]

I looked around and I don't actually have Hazards anywhere

Hazards are on a separate flasher unit that is mounted to the left side of the steering column by the e brake lever.

The turn signal flasher is to the left of the ash tray

 

[Muad'Dib15]

fuses protyect the wire so the load of the bulbs and the AWG of the wire have to be in agreement. wire too small and it becomes the fuse. Fuse too big and you have the same thing. heavier wire with lighter fuse is a good combo.

like 16AWG for a circuit that would have been 18AWG and if the cir had a 15A fuse that would be fine as the wire can hold up longer. too small of a fuse and it will pop for no reason

Super fast Matt posted a chart in his make wiring easy video, which shows the relationship between amps drawn and distance showing which gauge you need to use. When I get to that point, then I'll start referencing it for wire sizes and then fuses. I've been there once or twice with too small of a fuse as well.

Probably best to redesign the system. It new strategy to deal with the new goals. That stuff will be running on battery with the engine off. Additionally the battery will get drawn down further. As a result there will be high charge rates unless you have a way to control that because the recharge voltage is fixed.

Played around with some ideas in this thread, including ways to monitor the charge rate.

Fusible link or not?

I am going to install a relay to power a fused distribution block to power things like the line-lock, the efi, distributor, ignition box. Since I can put appropriate fuses for each item, would be beneficial or detrimental to put a fusible link in the line to power the relay. If so, would you...

www.forabodiesonly.com

And more recently here without an ammeter.

Do I really need the wire from the alternator to the bulkhead connector?

This question is for the guys that like wiring and electrical challenges, if those type of people actually exist . I have a 5.9 Magnum running the factory EFI and 46rh transmission in my 70 Dart, and it’s awesome (for me). It all works really well but when I initially did everything a couple...

www.forabodiesonly.com

Good luck and keep folks updated. It will be a lot of work but could be rewarding if you like that sort of project.

I think I only plan on having the horn, flashers, door lights, and fan on the hot circuit. Everything else will either be on Run (J2/IGN) or Accessory. Fan mainly because the car runs hot and I'm ok with the fan drawing some power to cool the car after shutting it off. My buell does that and I've never had any issues with it. Horn and flashers for obvious reasons. I'm debating brakes but that I think adds in some complexity that I'm not quite ready to deal with.

You were right, I thought I was just doing the tail lights, but it turned into an entire mess of all the lights except heads and backup. I think I have a handle on it. Is D on the headlight switch also a power inlet or is it just a convient place to tie the left and right pillar, map, glove, and trunk light together and turn them on all at once when you ground the switch? It seems like a power point from the cig lighter fuse and then sends it out to each of the pillars and the left door. But that whole circuit also connects through the brake light circuit which ties into B2. The brake light doesn't even need to be on there from what I can see. All it does is provide power unless it interrupts something in the headlight switch or it's another. I can easily see a couple spots for one big fuse, or 2 for the parking lights. Have the fuse in the Acc block so that even if the switch is pulled running it doesn't turn on the lights until key on. One before the brake switch either Hot or on key in Acc circuit. Separate the cig lighter from the map/glove box since mine is else where and put a small fuse into my hot block for lights when the doors are open.

Last, why the actual hell are backup lights wired into the wiper switch????

 

[Dana67Dart]

Last, why the actual hell are backup lights wired into the wiper switch????

easiest one first.

The backup lights get their power from a terminal on the wiper switch because it was a convenient location for the factory to pickup power. The switch just passes the power from its power source to the terminal the backup lights are fed from.

67 2 Speed Wiper Switch Demystified

note... The headlight switch has a built in cir breaker to protect the head light cir, this is done so a momentary shorted wire does not leave you without headlights on a moonless night in the middle of nowhere.

67 Dart Headlight Switch Demystified

Map lights...

The map / courtesy lights are fed 12V all the time and the other lead from each bulb goes to a switch that makes a ground, door jam or headlight switch rotated full CCW. The instrument lights are the opposite and get 12V from the rheostat on the headlight switch to be dimmable and are only on when the switch is pulled out to position 1 or 2.


Another thing you will run into is the wiper motors and switches. There are several the simplest uses friction to park the blades and the most complex uses additional field coils to stop the motor



BTW google "Chrysler Master Tech Videos" and the subject "Wipers" (or whatever your wondering about) and you will pull up corny but very well made videos showing how the systems work and how to test

 

[Muad'Dib15]

Yah I'm just going to use the factory wiper system. Questions
1. You guys have said earlier that IGN1/IGN2 do not stay on at the same time at all. How am I supposed to run an electric fuel pump on IGN1 if I need it to start the car? Or is that something that needs to be split to both circuits to start the car and run it?

2. Can I safely assume that everything connected to the splice on the black wire side of the Ammeter is hot 24/7? Judging from the wiring on from CCW that seems to be the case as the door/interior lights, headlights, and brake lights can all be turned on with the car off.
2a. Are the brake lights only on the same fuse power as the dome lights and are otherwise a separate system? It seems like that's the case but I'm not 100% certain.


3. Does the parking brake switch take it's power from the hotside of the radio/heater fuses and what the heck is this jumper looking thing that looks like it's sending power to heater?

 

[Dana67Dart]

1. You guys have said earlier that IGN1/IGN2 do not stay on at the same time at all. How am I supposed to run an electric fuel pump on IGN1 if I need it to start the car? Or is that something that needs to be split to both circuits to start the car and run it

Yes

2. Can I safely assume that everything connected to the splice on the black wire side of the Ammeter is hot

Yes, and anything connected to the battery side of the ammeter too

The ammeter only reads current going into or out of the battery. If the engine is off, then it tells you that there is a draw on the battery

 

[Dana67Dart]

what the heck is this jumper looking thing

A jumper, either built into the fuse block OR added on

 

[Muad'Dib15]

So similar to the ballast resistor providing power to the coil or being bypassed on start. Just making sure that it's sent power when the key is in either position. And I would assume it would be the same of anything that I want to be on when cranking or running, needs to be hooked up to both. So EFI, fuel pump, coil afaik. Right now the first two don't exist on the car, but they will in the future so I'll just set them up with dummy plugs for now.

Anything on the brake light switch?

What they didn't have the ability to have 3 fuses powered at once from the ACC switch so they jumped it internally lmao?? To be fair, I do have my added on tach spaded into the outlet of the instrument lights fuse so it looks kinda jank under there, but at least it dims with the rest of them haha.

After looking at it, it kind of makes sense now. The jumped fuse has to be A/C related which my car has, but I know a lot of them don't. So I guess they just didn't put a fuse in there if the A/C wasn't installed. But what is it protecting? The compressor is the only big thing unless it goes to the bypass switch/resistor.

 

[Muad'Dib15]

So after looking at a couple of efi systems, I noticed that they all only have a single power inlet. I'm assuming that Chevy leaves the run switch on while cranking whereas these cars do not.
So to simulate that electrically, I'm thinking a couple of 5 Pin relays for fuel injection and the pump I mentioned earlier. 87a would be on the run side of the circuit and 87 would be under start and then just wire the outlets to a single plug so that way they get power regardless of the key position. Accessory is going to be separate obviously. Would I want a diode on one of the pins to prevent back feeding power or is that unnecessary since none of them are in the charging system?
I also feel like using a relay on the coil would be overkill, so just wiring it like stock but with a fuse should be alright?
Would this coil setup continue to work if I changed to an Hei style coil in the future? I already have a pertronix ignitor 2 distributor so I'm pulling power for it from the jumpered ballast resistor.

Last, negative relay switch. I vaguely understand how it works in regards to the neutral safety, fan temp, and horns. Is there any real value in converting the rest of the system to that other then being "safer"

 

[MadScientistMat]

Generally with EFI you would have one relay for the ECU / sensors, and depending on the current draw can use the same relay for injectors, coil(s), and the fuel pump. You may need extra relays if you're running a monster of a fuel pump or some really wild ignitions.

 

[Muad'Dib15]

Oh ok. So I'm thinking straight overkill then. I was thinking one for each, but if I don't have to, that makes my life a little easier.