Decent handling susp setup?

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thanson_mopar

thanson_mopar

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Im not into drag racing, just want a car i can actually drive. We have lots of nice curvy roads, while im not exactly going to go autocross racing, I would like to be able to have a little fun in them.

Right now i have SS springs in the rear. I would like something that levels the car back out and stiff enough to help in the corners. Any sug?

Right now i have 340 torsion bars. I am thinking 1.03 bars from pst.

Later on i wiould like to ad front/rear sway bars.

Am i on the right track for what i want to accomplish?
 
For handling tires are it, the stickier and wider you can get. As for suspension the front does 80% of the work just like braking. A front sway bar is a must and the 1.03 bars would be good along with good shocks and brakes.
Then for the back is to select springs and maybe sway bar to balance out the front ideally you want a neutral car with no over or under steer but most build in a little understeer since it's safer than oversteer.
 
273 said:
For handling tires are it, the stickier and wider you can get. As for suspension the front does 80% of the work just like braking. A front sway bar is a must and the 1.03 bars would be good along with good shocks and brakes.
Then for the back is to select springs and maybe sway bar to balance out the front ideally you want a neutral car with no over or under steer but most build in a little understeer since it's safer than oversteer.
Click to expand...

Bf goodrich radial t/as were what i was originally planning on. I will be running 15's. Tire size recomendations? Not sure how much i can get away with.

Have kyb shocks and fbody discs up front.

Thanks for the tips
 
there are some very knowledgeable guys on this site that can help you select matched
suspension pieces.
ditch the "jacked up" stance and keep the ride height stock or lower and level for safer
and better handling and braking.
 
thanson_mopar said:
Bf goodrich radial t/as were what i was originally planning on. I will be running 15's. Tire size recomendations? Not sure how much i can get away with.

Have kyb shocks and fbody discs up front.

Thanks for the tips
Click to expand...

I'm sure someone with more experience with tires can help you out. It's all about compromises, your car can't handle any better than your front tires everything else is trying to get the most out of them. That said I'm sure your not gonna run 12" slicks up front so it depends how often your willing to get new rubber is how sticky you can go?
 
thanson_mopar said:
Bf goodrich radial t/as were what i was originally planning on. I will be running 15's. Tire size recomendations? Not sure how much i can get away with.

Have kyb shocks and fbody discs up front.

Thanks for the tips
Click to expand...

IMO, you're on the right track. I did not catch what car is under consideration here. It matters because weight and where its being carried by the chassis is going to dictate the general direction of things.

Qs:
What car? engine? PS? A/C? Current TB diameter? Current rear spring rate L/R? Suspension bushings? Wheels that will be used?

In general, the 1.03 tb is a good choice for starters. Recommend a front anti-roll bar and good gas shocks all around. New bushings and a performance front end alignment will help.

My handling preference leans towards a bit soft, but well controlled suspension setup. Too stiff, the car doesn't grip the road well; too soft, it floats and does not give good control. IMO the biggest wheel tire combination that will fit comfortably under a fairly stock setup is a 225/60-15 on a 15x7, 4¼ offset. This produces a wheel tire package that is 9" wide and 25.6" tall.

I currently have 235/60-15 T/As under the Demon. It's a little too much. Hard cornering on bumpy streets bounces the tires off the inside of the fenders. The biggest problem I see with continuing to running this setup is going to be choice of tires in the future. Choices are limited
 
What car are we talking about here??? SS springs are designed for drag racing, period. They're constructed to counter act the twisting effect torque has on a hard launch. Replace the SS springs with leaf springs rated to match the 1.03s up front. The arch of the spring should be close to flat with the car at rest which will result in a lower ride height. The 1.03s will allow you to lower the front adjustment to match. You want the car to sit flat to slight nose low. A Helwig tubular 1.125 front sway bar will keep roll under control and keep weight down. Replacing the front upper control arm bushings with Moog K7103 offset bushings will allow for aggressive alignment settings cheaply and easily. Bilstein shocks thru Firm Feel (an excellent source of parts and advice) are valved to handle the 1.03s and stiffer leaf springs and are well worth the cost. Stay away from KYBs. Make sure your breaks are up to slowing down the increased speeds. Sorry, the BFGs are now a major impediment to really realizing how well these cars can handle. There just isn't any support from the tire industry for the 15 inch dia. The best is probably Micky Thompson's SR series but remember your trading longevity for the grip provided by softer tire compounds.
 
2 Darts said:
IMO, you're on the right track. I did not catch what car is under consideration here. It matters because weight and where its being carried by the chassis is going to dictate the general direction of things.

Qs:
What car? engine? PS? A/C? Current TB diameter? Current rear spring rate L/R? Suspension bushings? Wheels that will be used?

In general, the 1.03 tb is a good choice for starters. Recommend a front anti-roll bar and good gas shocks all around. New bushings and a performance front end alignment will help.

My handling preference leans towards a bit soft, but well controlled suspension setup. Too stiff, the car doesn't grip the road well; too soft, it floats and does not give good control. IMO the biggest wheel tire combination that will fit comfortably under a fairly stock setup is a 225/60-15 on a 15x7, 4¼ offset. This produces a wheel tire package that is 9" wide and 25.6" tall.

I currently have 235/60-15 T/As under the Demon. It's a little too much. Hard cornering on bumpy streets bounces the tires off the inside of the fenders. The biggest problem I see with continuing to running this setup is going to be choice of tires in the future. Choices are limited
Click to expand...

Your right, shouldve given a few specifics.

74 duster, 360, manual steering, currently 340 torsion bars, currently super stock springs, front rebuild with oem bushings, still looking for recomendation on tires but will be using 15" steel wheels

Can you recomend a brand of gas shock? Rear leaf springs? (The ss springs are getting removed) as well as the 340 torsion bars.

Can you give me details on a "performance" alignment? I am running f body front spindles/discs.

So if 225/60r15 are what i need on the front, what size would you run on the back since you dont like your 235's? 225?

Thanks for all the info
 
rapom65 said:
What car are we talking about here??? SS springs are designed for drag racing, period. They're constructed to counter act the twisting effect torque has on a hard launch. Replace the SS springs with leaf springs rated to match the 1.03s up front. The arch of the spring should be close to flat with the car at rest which will result in a lower ride height. The 1.03s will allow you to lower the front adjustment to match. You want the car to sit flat to slight nose low. A Helwig tubular 1.125 front sway bar will keep roll under control and keep weight down. Replacing the front upper control arm bushings with Moog K7103 offset bushings will allow for aggressive alignment settings cheaply and easily. Bilstein shocks thru Firm Feel (an excellent source of parts and advice) are valved to handle the 1.03s and stiffer leaf springs and are well worth the cost. Stay away from KYBs. Make sure your breaks are up to slowing down the increased speeds. Sorry, the BFGs are now a major impediment to really realizing how well these cars can handle. There just isn't any support from the tire industry for the 15 inch dia. The best is probably Micky Thompson's SR series but remember your trading longevity for the grip provided by softer tire compounds and their increased grip.
Click to expand...

Yep, like i mentioned, the ss springs are getting removed. Where would you recomend getting rear springs from? 74 duster

Thanks for the moog bushing tip

I would really like to keep 15s to maintain the dogdish hubcaps i will look into the mickey thompsons
 
I think one source is called ESPO Spring, Hotchkiss is probably best. There are others. Contact Firm Feel and they will give you best advice for the level of performance vs cost. You can fit up to a 275-60 in an unmodified Duster rear wheel well with stock suspension and axle. Its very important to keep your mods a balanced package so that everything works together to achieve the desired results. The package I outlined above will result in a very good handling A body at minimum cost. Tires will be the limiting factor using 15s. Don't use stock alignment specs. They are for bias ply tires. Modern radial tires require different specs. I would ask the Mopar guys in your area for recommendations on an alignment shop that knows how to set up a older Mopar.
 
225's won't cut it. 245s is the place to start. Unfortunately to fit them with 15s onto the car is very difficult. These require 8 inch rims.There is just not enough room on the lowered front to center those 15s between the BJs and the fenders, without cutting the fenders, or banging into the BJs. The rims will have to be tucked as close as possible to the BJ, and then after the tire is on, the fender will need to be cut so that you can turn. Then the tire will want to rub on the frame rails at the rear edges, so the stops may have to be built up. If you are not willing to go this far, the 235s will work on 7 inch rims. But the selection of sticky 235s seems to be history. So then it doesn't matter if you put 15s or 14s on the front, cuz you are tire-limited right from the get-go.
My solution for this, was to slow down early.
Yes, I have the 1.03s and the big Hellwig, and de-arched HD rear springs,lowered, etc,etc. But since I,too,am tire-limited, I depend on my brakes a lot. I charge UP TO the corner, slam on the brakes, and power-slide the back around while the front drifts hopelessly wide. This is not the fast way around the course, but it sure is fun!
So if you are into fun, try to get 235s on there at the least. You need the rubber for braking;if for no other reason! And get some performance pads with fresh or freshened rotors.And those brakes better be tuned for progressive,predictable,stable,performance; cuz they better be controllable when the time comes. That means you may be playing with bore sizes of the Master cylinder and rear wheel cylinders.I chose a 15/16 M/C cuz it gives me lots of pedal-travel to modulate with. And if I panic-brake I won't get whiplash in the first 2 inches of pedal travel. I also run the teflon lined front hoses, cuz they transmit the pedal-force right-now.I also run 295s in the back with 10 x 2s and large w/cs, and no proportioning valve; all to help with slowing down.
Or you can slow down early......NOT. heehee
 
Look up posts by 72bluNblu, you have a very similar car to his and he's got a great t-bar suspension setup in his.
 
I think you are on the right track for improved steer handling.

1.03 t bars
Front and rear sway bars
Bilstien RCD shocks
Alignment: -.5 to -.75 neg camber, as much positive caster up to +4, 1/16" toe in

Stock HD rear leaf springs would be fine and cost effective for that combo imho.
 
I wouldn't get too worried about sticking huge tires up front like you said your just looking for some spirited back road driving unless you plan on doing it at extremely high speeds 225 are probably fine each tire size above that adds less than a 1/2 inch to the width and down the road after a few years and got the suspension sorted out could go with better then.
 
have 67 Dart with .92 T-bars, and 2 right SS springs de-arched in the rear for level ride height. Large front sway bar and small rear bar. Poly kit in front, actually took out the poly bushings in the rear bar and put rubber bushes in because the rear of car was to stiff. Bilstein shocks and 2X3 box tubing as sub-frame connectors. The best money spent was getting rid of BFG's and getting sticky tires. Harder to get a 200 type tire for a 15 inch rim now. Have 225/60/15 up front ( with a little forward fender trim) and 235/60/15 out back. Will need to get a wider tire when funds allow it. Corners real well for a street car and basic upgrades, without it becoming to stiff for a daily driver.
 
Your going to be VERY tire limited with 225/60/15's. Tire choice in that size is pretty much limited to hockey pucks. That doesn't mean you can't improve things a lot vs stock though.

As for the set up-

1.03" torsion bars- normally I'd say larger, but with 225's your tires won't keep up with stiffer bars anyway. Use Moog 7103 offset bushings for the stock UCA's to get to the alignment numbers you'll want. Hellwig makes nice sway bars, I use the tubular front 1 1/8” bar, #55905. The solid rear 3/4” A-body bar is #6907. ( I use a 7/8" E body rear sway bar, but again, this would be way too much for 225's). For rear springs, you can use Mopar Performance Oval Track Leaf Springs #P4529414 (or P4529415 for +1", but the zero arch 15's would be better). I think you'd still need 1” bushings for the rear spring eye, those are Energy suspension 2-2117G. I used AFCO's on my Duster, but the part # I used is no longer available and they're pretty much identical to the P4529414's. For shocks the RCD Bilsteins would be fine. The Hotchkis Fox shocks are better for larger torsion bars like the 1.12's I run, but with 1.03's and those tires I think the RCD's would be more than up to the task.

The alignment #'s that Steve posted are right on, normally you want as much + caster as you can get but with manual steering anything more than +3 to +4 will be a pain to turn.

If you did all of that your car would definitely handle a lot better than stock, but it'll come down to tires if you want it to do any better. A Duster can fit A LOT of tire, even in fairly stock form. 275's will fit in the back with no modifications at all. In the front the best you'll do with 15" rims is a 235 (unless you modify the fenders), and even that will be tight on the fenders. If you go to 17" rims you can run up to a 255 in the front without any issues. 18's allow for a 275 in the front. I run 275/35/18's in the front and 295/35/18's out back, but I have a 1/2" spring offset and I trimmed the quarter lips in the back.

Handling really comes down to tires. The Hotchkis Challenger pulls .95g on the skidpad. Last I heard it was running 275/35/18's in the front and 295/40/18's in the back, with Falken Azenis RT-615's.
 
thanson_mopar said:
Bf goodrich radial t/as were what i was originally planning on. I will be running 15's. Tire size recomendations? Not sure how much i can get away with.

Have kyb shocks and fbody discs up front.

Thanks for the tips
Click to expand...

i went with a 225/60-15 on our dart. 15x7 wheel with 4.5" backspace. if i did it over i'd go 4.75 backspace. went with a kuhmo tire


DSC_0092.jpg


DSC_0083.jpg
 
Hotchkis has -1 performance springs and a a bit more to there preformance handling line.

Basically, the things needed for a better handling car would be;

Widest tires possible.
Thickest sway (Anti roll) bars
Thickest T bars
Lower the car

IMO, skip the KYB and go get ya some QA1 shocks or equal or better... Just not KYB. There shocks have been showing up at my door to long for the application there going on. Car, truck, doesn't matter of it is old or new.
 
72bluNblu said:
Your going to be VERY tire limited with 225/60/15's. Tire choice in that size is pretty much limited to hockey pucks. That doesn't mean you can't improve things a lot vs stock though.

As for the set up-

1.03" torsion bars- normally I'd say larger, but with 225's your tires won't keep up with stiffer bars anyway. Use Moog 7103 offset bushings for the stock UCA's to get to the alignment numbers you'll want. Hellwig makes nice sway bars, I use the tubular front 1 1/8” bar, #55905. The solid rear 3/4” A-body bar is #6907. ( I use a 7/8" E body rear sway bar, but again, this would be way too much for 225's). For rear springs, you can use Mopar Performance Oval Track Leaf Springs #P4529414 (or P4529415 for +1", but the zero arch 15's would be better). I think you'd still need 1” bushings for the rear spring eye, those are Energy suspension 2-2117G. I used AFCO's on my Duster, but the part # I used is no longer available and they're pretty much identical to the P4529414's. For shocks the RCD Bilsteins would be fine. The Hotchkis Fox shocks are better for larger torsion bars like the 1.12's I run, but with 1.03's and those tires I think the RCD's would be more than up to the task.

The alignment #'s that Steve posted are right on, normally you want as much + caster as you can get but with manual steering anything more than +3 to +4 will be a pain to turn.

If you did all of that your car would definitely handle a lot better than stock, but it'll come down to tires if you want it to do any better. A Duster can fit A LOT of tire, even in fairly stock form. 275's will fit in the back with no modifications at all. In the front the best you'll do with 15" rims is a 235 (unless you modify the fenders), and even that will be tight on the fenders. If you go to 17" rims you can run up to a 255 in the front without any issues. 18's allow for a 275 in the front. I run 275/35/18's in the front and 295/35/18's out back, but I have a 1/2" spring offset and I trimmed the quarter lips in the back.

Handling really comes down to tires. The Hotchkis Challenger pulls .95g on the skidpad. Last I heard it was running 275/35/18's in the front and 295/40/18's in the back, with Falken Azenis RT-615's.
Click to expand...

I understand 15's are a huge limiting factor, but i really want to retain my dogdish hubcaps. If i could fet 18s i could put dogdishdd on i would be sold.

Moog bushings are on the order list

Thanks for the rec on the sway bars, i will put those on the list.

How stiff are the mopar circle track springs? Are they just like a stock HD spring?

I looked through your resto thread alot, i wNted to pick out the exact same setup but im stuck with 15's. I really like your duster.
 
How do you like the kumos? What size are you running on the rear?
Click to expand...


have about 1000 miles on them.. so far so good.. rides nice and seems to stick good for how we drive it.. 225/60-15 all the way around.

just installed new rear springs i got from http://bergmanautocraft.com/ but have only driven it around the block.. also have a big sway bar that i need to install yet. need more time in the day though.. :)
 
rumblefish360 said:
Hotchkis has -1 performance springs and a a bit more to there preformance handling line.

Basically, the things needed for a better handling car would be;

Widest tires possible.
Thickest sway (Anti roll) bars
Thickest T bars
Lower the car

IMO, skip the KYB and go get ya some QA1 shocks or equal or better... Just not KYB. There shocks have been showing up at my door to long for the application there going on. Car, truck, doesn't matter of it is old or new.
Click to expand...

Hey rob! Been a few years!

Ill check out the qa1's

How have you been?
 
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