EFI ECM: which would you choose and why?

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dusterbd13

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I'm looking HARD at going multi-port EFI on my 360 mopar. its got a medium sized cam, and with an 850 double pumper and a victor Jr. single plane, it made 390 horse at the rear wheels at 5700.
i since swapped in an edelbrock 750 and dual plane to get some drivability for the car, as well as some more manifold vacuum.
this current combo, though more drivable, is down on power and STILL does not give me the drivability and such that i am looking for.

therefore, I'm looking at going MPFI. i have decided against TBI, even though it would look more correct under the hood. the drivability benefits of multi-port are just so much better.
i have not decided whether I'm going to modify the dual or single plane yet. more research on that one before i spend the money.

where I'm really struggling is the decision for the ECM. I'm looking to do this inexpensively (not exactly free, but not over 1000 for the ecm) in the end i want ultimate drivability and reliability, with no hiccups, gremlins, oddities, etc.

so, with these parameters of motor and injection style in place, Ive got a few options for ecm that i know of, and two that REALLY stand out to me.

1. use a TPI corvette/camaro ECM. reasons being that they are dirt cheap, i have a vague understanding on tuner pro (not good AT ALL), and the injection and displacement are similar to what i want to do. harnesses are easy to make and modify, lots of support, and also the ability to run knock sensors and timing control. don't know if i have the option for auto tune or wide band o2 control with these systems and tuner pro, though. also have no idea where id mount a knock sensor on my motor. have to do data logging and burn many chips to get the combo dialed I'm though.

2. megasquirt 2 or 3. they have a really good auto tune feature, the tuner studio looks pretty straightforward, i know they accept a wide band o2 sensor. can use pretty much anything i want and this ECU will support it. seems to have a bunch of support for them, reasonable price. have to custom fab a whole harness instead of modifying a stocker, and have to figure out a lot more of the engineering for the system than the GM ECM. but more tunability, no chips, etc. lots of pros, lots of cons. can also control pretty much any accessory, and does timing.

so, i know there are others out there as well, it just seems like these are the two that are right up my alley.
so, which system would you use (even if its not either one of these) and why?
Michael
 
Seems to me there is a ton of info out there on adapting Ford EFI. The "easy" way should be to get ahold of an old enough setup that you use a distributor, get a Ferd distributor, and modify it to fit a Mopar block

Ford V8 dist's all turn CCW, so you'd have to deal with that. I'm not sure what you'd run into. I don't have the link, but there's at least one guy who put Ferd EFI on a Mopar
 
I suspect that 67Dart273 is talking about the ignition system. The Ford EDIS is very popular with engine controls hobbyists and Megasquirt recommends it as the easiest way to distributor-less ignition. I got the parts for future playing and already put a 36-1 wheel and pickup on my 273.

However, the OP's question concerns fuel control. I would prefer Megasquirt because I am an engineer and programmer and can dig into the electronic board and even the source code if I must, which isn't possible with a factory setup like GM. The factory box approach is probably cheaper, but will always be a mysterious black box and you will have to rely on after-market companies for chips (I think).

I sort of gave up on Megasquirt because the design is a bit dated. Especially, distributorless ignition requires many clunky add-ons. Even MPI gets clunky for a V-8 since the original design was for throttle bodies (2 injectors). Also it isn't cheap, though I keep trolling ebay hoping to snag one at my price point.

Most stay away from the Mopar engine controllers because there is less tuning support. However, the 5.9L box should be a direct match to your basic 360 engine, other than your cam changes and such. I got one of those boxes and harnesses for $15 off ebay, just to maybe pop it open and see what chips they use, plus get the connectors. I may even try running my 273 engine with it later.

I wonder what you will do to get a MPI intake manifold. Are there aftermarket ones that will fit the 360 head bolt angles? Are you switching to Magnum heads? I bought a Magnum "beer jug" MPI intake w/ parts for my future playing. I may be able to mount it on my 273 heads since my bolts are much closer to vertical (see my post). If not, maybe I'll get Magnum aluminum heads (I think they make them) to get the right bolt holes and shed ~50 lbs, plus I suspect the valve covers seal much better.

Finally, don't overlook the effort of making a wire harness. Many people treat that as an after-thought. At work, I often deal with making custom cables, and is neither fast nor inexpensive. Just look at the prices Painless Wiring charges. Whenever you can leverage a factory harness, do that. Otherwise, your EFI will never get running because the cabling turned out to be too much. I suspect most Megasquirt projects end up that way because they have you both build the circuit board and fabricate a custom harness.
 
I was told Megasquirt was more akin to a science project, open source is nice, but every option seems to ba an add on. GM EFI is almost turn key once you get your wheel in place or whatever ut uses for initial cam timing, and there are loads of places that will tune it for you. EEEC4 is self tuning in as much as camshaft selection goes. FAST and the other PROxxx boxes are self tuning too, but I dont like the TBI type wet runners that they offer. I have a 1st gen Edelbrock I ave yet to install, but the chip is already burned for my cam so it should be a bolt on. The 2nd gens are more tuneable, but both are rather expensive along with Accel and that other one I cant think the name of. Holley Projection is cheap but anolog (old) or buggy (old and new) and QC was never high. Good luck. Harness making is EZ, just have plenty of wrap (not electrical tape, too gooey) and time, and a good splicing technique (solder and shrink wrap) Good luck, keep us informed!
 
If you are looking for maf system have you considered http://www.massfloefi.com/ ? I spoke to him in the past, seemed like a good guy to me and is willing to work with you on just selling the pieces you need. Based off of a 5.0 Stang ecm....
 
BillGrissom said:
I suspect that 67Dart273 is talking about the ignition system. .
Click to expand...

Nope, I'm talking about Ford "mass air" EFI. I'm not sure what all years are adaptable, I'd imagine that the older ones still using a distributor would be. I've run into several threads around the www, including a Mopar guy, using adapted Ferd EFI systems instead of Mopar


Here's one now:

Read here:

http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=7247.0

and

http://www.theturboforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133884.5;wap2

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8q782mnbVnI"]1974 Cuda - Dyno-2 - YouTube[/ame]
 
A mass flow system is the best method, especially for a generic retrofit. The computer doesn't need to know anything about the engine displacement, valve/cam efficiency, or even rpm to determine what fuel is needed to match the air flow, hence little or no tuning required. I am sure it does tap into an rpm signal as a trigger for the injectors, but doesn't need it to determine flow rate. The early ones (GM?) were problematic since the sensor would fail, call for too much fuel (or too little?), and melt the catalytic converter. However, I expect the newer ones are more reliable.
 
One of the potentially easier setups would be a FAST EZ EFI system. They offer them in a multi-port kit that is cheaper than the TBI system, though you have to come up with injectors, so it kind of balances out. You get a computer, harness, and wideband O2 sensor for just a little over $900. It tunes itself, and from what I've heard and read people really like them. I was planning on going that route originally, but had a Megasquirt 2 fall into my lap for a steal. You'd have to keep the distributor setup with the FAST system since the EZ EFI only runs fuel, but it would mean less issues to have to possibly work out during the conversion.
 
this thread is really peaking my interest, I did a TBI swap on a M body mopar but the engine is completly stock and all TBI gear was from a dodge truck (1989)
 
I'm going to agree with 67Dart273 on the EECIV Ford system. Calibration for an ECM from a 5.8l/351 would likely be close for a 360 Mopar There's some good documentation at this site.

http://fordfuelinjection.com/

Ford wiring harnesses are also mercifully easy to separate from the rest of the vehicle wiring.ECM is usually located behind the front passenger side kick panel and you can easily follow the wire thru the firewall grommet and up to the two engine plugs. Also need the relay panel from under the hood.

Adding an EDIS ignition would also be an interesting project.
 
I've been running a Megasquirt I (with upgraded firmware) since about 7 years now, and Never had any problems with it. Any issues (not that there's been many) have allways been external, related to wires and sensors etc, i.e. things you could mess up with any system.

Support and info on the megasquirt forum is plenty and helpfull. I buildt the thing from a kit, but ready buildt and tested units are available.

With prices having come down dramatically over the last years, I purchased a wide-band lambda with controller from innovate, just awesome with the autotune feature!!! The engine literally tunes it self to perfection just by driving arround!!

it is not 100% plug and play as I suspect some of the commercial systems are, you will have to do stuff like setting up communication ports on the laptop and configure some firmware and INI files, but it is all explained and quite doable.

Looking at value for money, megasquirt is in my oppinion unsurpassable.
 
I am considering a MPFI build as well. I have been looking at Megasquirt too. I want to see if I understand your meaning (and my understanding of MPFI). I assume the wide-band lambda with controller feeds a signal to the MS ECU, which then uses the data to adjust the fuel and timing curve on the fly until it reaches optimal efficiency? I didn't think MS could do that. Please elaborate. I am still trying to gain a solid grasp of the MPFI systems and how they work. Thanks in advance for your response.


Superelbert said:
I've been running a Megasquirt I (with upgraded firmware) since about 7 years now, and Never had any problems with it. Any issues (not that there's been many) have always been external, related to wires and sensors etc, i.e. things you could mess up with any system.

Support and info on the megasquirt forum is plenty and helpful. I built the thing from a kit, but ready built and tested units are available.

With prices having come down dramatically over the last years, I purchased a wide-band lambda with controller from innovate, just awesome with the autotune feature!!! The engine literally tunes it self to perfection just by driving arround!!

it is not 100% plug and play as I suspect some of the commercial systems are, you will have to do stuff like setting up communication ports on the laptop and configure some firmware and INI files, but it is all explained and quite doable.

Looking at value for money, megasquirt is in my opinion unsurpassed.
Click to expand...
 
Superelbert said:
Looking at value for money, megasquirt is in my oppinion unsurpassable.
Click to expand...

I'm getting ready to make the leap to Megasquirt myself, odds are I'll go with a MS-II unit with timing control for boosted operation.

Just considering my options- Use a magnum distributor for cam signal and a wheel on the balancer or perhaps get a dual sync distributor?
 
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