I would be interested
Gauging interest in making new alternator voltage regulators
- Thread starter MadScientistMat
- Start date
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I’m interested as well. I really like the idea of a switch to change charging voltages for different battery types (esp AGM)
Also important that is has the capacity to handle the higher output “retro“ alternators. Eg Powermaster 7018 etc
Jim
Also important that is has the capacity to handle the higher output “retro“ alternators. Eg Powermaster 7018 etc
Jim
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
My several centsThat's a reasonable question, and it deserves a fair answer for what I would, and would not, be able to do.
For those who don't know me, my name is Matt Cramer. I have a degree in mechanical engineering and worked at DIYAutoTune for close to 15 years, where I did a lot of electrical work. Some of my experience there includes designing the DIYPNP and the original run of MSPNP Gen 2 units, working as project manager for the first generation MS3Pro, and designing drop on engine and transmission wiring harnesses.
The plan here would initially be to get a line of professionally made PCBs (no toner transfer and ferric chloride) run with through hole parts that I can assemble by hand, then if that establishes the demand is there, have a contract manufacturer make a larger run with surface mount parts.
One limitation that I haven't found a good way to get around is making stamped metal parts in short runs, which is limiting me to either finding an off the shelf enclosure (generally plastic or cast aluminum) that can be easily customized, or trying to recondition used ones (which would be a lot more involved). So I'm checking to see how much of a deal breaker this could be, and if it's a problem, I'd rather find out before I've ordered a bunch of parts.
Case grounds versus wire grounds have a few trade offs. A wire is another failure point, true. But I've seen reports of internal grounds to the case fail. And a correctly executed case ground still has to deal with voltage drops and electrical noise in a chassis ground - you'd think that much sheet metal would give a clean signal, but noise, spot welds, and a number of other factors interfere.
First, hi, Matt, I did not realize who you are. On a side not, I'm way behind, and started some time ago to assemble a Megasquirt II kit to play with and have not got it done LOL
Anyhow IF you do this ............
1....Not sure the quantity will sell that well to this niche market. If you can make it a bit more universal for other types of swaps, that might broaden sales
2....I think someone above mentioned making it compatible with a grounded field alternator. I agree, as the 70/ later isolated field alternator can be easily modded to work as a grounded field
3...I would add a 3rd connection for voltage sense. The Mopar way of getting sense through the ign power wire has never been great, nor would it be a good idea to sense from the charge wire as the "one wire" setups do.
4...Consider adding a dedicated ground wire/ terminal, as depending on case ground as OEM did is, I'm sure you know, not always "sure."
I like your efforts on making the mopar electronics.
Looked into the mopar brain boxes pretty seriously 2 years ago. Above my pay grade on building them though.
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There are Solid State voltage regulators already being made. I bought one off ebay for my 1969 Plymouth Satellite.
Worked out well for me.
If this is the part you are talking about making?
Thanks
☆☆☆☆☆
Looked into the mopar brain boxes pretty seriously 2 years ago. Above my pay grade on building them though.
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There are Solid State voltage regulators already being made. I bought one off ebay for my 1969 Plymouth Satellite.
Worked out well for me.
If this is the part you are talking about making?
Thanks
☆☆☆☆☆
If you are and engineer and pull the lid off and see how that was constructed your head explodes, yes I’m an engineer and I have used them successful on several cars for several years as well. Matt wants to make a high quality one.
I have had two of those and both failed on me.
@MadScientistMat
Like what you are looking into here Mat.
There is a need for Rock Solid Mopar Electronic Ignition, Replacement Brain Boxes.
There were a bunch of us here looking into it back in 2020. Here is a link of what we were looking into an discussing.
www.forabodiesonly.com
Would be great if you could pick up the ball and get the idea going again and see what you can come up with.
Thanks for your efforts.
☆☆☆☆☆
Like what you are looking into here Mat.
There is a need for Rock Solid Mopar Electronic Ignition, Replacement Brain Boxes.
There were a bunch of us here looking into it back in 2020. Here is a link of what we were looking into an discussing.
1974 Brain Box saves the day.
Was heading out to a local car gathering a couple weeks ago, and a no start on my '76 Truck. Turns out the 1 year old replacement brain box failed. I had a well used 1974 5 pin brain box from my '74 Dart that I had replaced because all the goo on the back had melted out from the hot sun in...
www.forabodiesonly.com
Would be great if you could pick up the ball and get the idea going again and see what you can come up with.
Thanks for your efforts.
☆☆☆☆☆
Would it be possible/feasible to have one that covers several years/makes/models?
Screw the resto correct stuff at this point in my opinion. Reliability is #1.
Screw the resto correct stuff at this point in my opinion. Reliability is #1.
Ironracer
Gearhead
Absolutely Man, unless you're trying to build a 100-point show, car piss on that crap! And honestly, most hundred Point show cars usually don't get driven that much, they get trailer queened...... I've always built my stuff to reliably flog upon, steer, amd stop, with legal lights
MadScientistMat
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Lots of good feedback here. It looks like there's a definite split in the market:
- Correct appearing restoration regulators that plug directly into OE wiring
- A high tech regulator that works with just about any alternator and battery you could possibly use, and let the appearance and wiring follow what the device needs
At this point, it makes sense for me to start on the second one first as I can do that with a smaller cash outlay, then simplify the circuit a bit and find a way to tool up for a correct appearing unit. Then see what I can do about ignition boxes.
- Correct appearing restoration regulators that plug directly into OE wiring
- A high tech regulator that works with just about any alternator and battery you could possibly use, and let the appearance and wiring follow what the device needs
At this point, it makes sense for me to start on the second one first as I can do that with a smaller cash outlay, then simplify the circuit a bit and find a way to tool up for a correct appearing unit. Then see what I can do about ignition boxes.
BillGrissom
Well-Known Member
I see talk of different batteries needing different charging controls, but no explanation. Add that people are beginning to use lighter Li 12 VDC batteries, the only hindrance being price (>$600). There are various Li types. When I replaced the lead-acid batteries in my daughter's razor scooter with LiFePO4 (LFP) type, I had to buy a different charger since they like ~17 VDC vs ~14 VDC for lead. But, the auto Li batteries may be designed more compatible. Not sure how the Vreg would better match the battery. You can't go higher on charging voltage, since that can damage other consumers, like burn out the headlamps. Do you mean controlling the output current instead?
Re price, hard to beat the Vreg I bought for my 1965 Chrysler, $11 for early one field wire alternator (grounded field). It doesn't look OE, rather a thin chrome box more like the later Mopar Vreg, but w/ early connectors. Probably made in China, but what isn't today? But I'm changing my early Mopars to the later square-back alternator for more output current since TBI and radiator fans. I have a bag of 1970's two field wire Vregs (triangle connector) for them, though can also use a 1-wire Vreg with them (just ground one field wire). I mount the Vreg on the inner fender beside the alternator. Not sure why Mopar ran wires all the way to the firewall.
Re price, hard to beat the Vreg I bought for my 1965 Chrysler, $11 for early one field wire alternator (grounded field). It doesn't look OE, rather a thin chrome box more like the later Mopar Vreg, but w/ early connectors. Probably made in China, but what isn't today? But I'm changing my early Mopars to the later square-back alternator for more output current since TBI and radiator fans. I have a bag of 1970's two field wire Vregs (triangle connector) for them, though can also use a 1-wire Vreg with them (just ground one field wire). I mount the Vreg on the inner fender beside the alternator. Not sure why Mopar ran wires all the way to the firewall.
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
All Li based batteries, at least the larger ones of this nature, have an onboard electronics mangagement/ protection system. That system can also bite you. Some Li based systems "if they go dead" (enough) need special measures to bring them back, and of course, since the electronics package involves high power and amperage, this means IT CAN FAIL
When I worked at the wheel chair joint, we handled repairs of several LiFePo batteries used in the chairs. What this amounted to, is saving shipping an extremely heavy battery back for repair.
This involved safety glasses and face shields, being EXTREMELY careful, and using a HUGE soldering iron. The boss used about a 250 watt old American Beauty iron with a 5/8" or larger chisel tip Unlike a lead acid battery, the Li based stuff has banks of smaller cells in series, with the series strings then paralleled. It all adds up to a VERY high power and dangerous system, WHICH MUST BE repaired "hot" as there is no practical way to "disconnect" the things.
You simply have to be very awake, on the job, and careful.
MadScientistMat
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I did consider a controlled current regulator, but it would add a lot to the price and make installation harder. It may happen later if there's demand for such a thing.
The different charging controls was a request from another board and I had to research it myself. Your standard battery (Flooded Lead Acid) is going to need extra voltage to charge when cold - some recommend cranking the voltage up to 15.8 at freezing, although as you noted this can take a toll on other electronics. If we clip that at 15 volts max, this curve would also work fine for AGM batteries (like Optima). And you back off the voltage a little at higher temperatures.
Gel cell batteries are not all that common, but they need to be treated gently and run around half a volt lower than a FLA or AGM battery. You really, really don't want to make these build up gas.
Lithium batteries, as 67Dart273 noted, have onboard management circuitry. They can also handle more voltage at higher temperatures. However, unless that onboard management circuitry includes a heater (Antigravity's battery line doesn't, for example, but some of the Dakota Lithium batteries do... but not all of them!), you want to shut off charging and drop the supply voltage to 12.8 volts when you hit freezing.
And there's also the possibility of letting the regulator support 16 volt race batteries.
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