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Gerst Tubular Suspensions
- Thread starter dukeboy440
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HemiMark
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I'm using a Gerst engineered front suspension in my 64 dodge Pick-up. All i'm going to say is be careful. I wish Hemi Denny made one!
HemiMark
Well-Known Member
Both sides are the same 500 miles on the swap with a slant six.
Are those bolts bent??
HemiMark
Well-Known Member
Yes
NC Engine Builder
Grumpy Old Man
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100% piss poor "engineering"
Ouch, have you talked to Carl about this?
Those don’t look grade 8 either, mine came with grade 8s. Wonder if you got the wrong bolts sent to you.
The bolt is too short and the spacers are backwards. The bolt unthreaded shank should be as long as the distance between the mounting ears. Replace with a grade 9/170,000 psi equivalent based on the unthreaded shank length needed, then trim the excess thread past the lock nut plus three threads with a die grinder friction cutting disc and radius/debur the end. Should run about $10 each for the bolts from mcmaster.
Yikes!! As others have said, I’d definitely do grade 8 bolts but another thing I would consider doing is add a gusset like this to the top side of that.
mopowers
Well-Known Member
Those tabs are way too far apart for that coilover. You could see that failure coming from a mile away.
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4spdragtop
Well-Known Member
I spoke to a guy a couple days ago that bought a Gerst setup. Not sure which model, but pretty sure for an A body. Major defects in both uca and lca i believe. Cracking big time. Was new but on his shelf for 3 years before install, so outta warranty but QA1(who bought Gerst?) honored it with full replacement.
This kinda stuff makes you really respect stock Mopar suspension.
Yeah I don't know why you'd even try that method of attachment for a coil over. You're supporting that entire corner of the vehicle on that span, makes zero sense.
It would be easy to box in and reinforce that entire section between the ears back to the frame. Hell none of those tabs are supported laterally either.
No, on the original Gerst conversions they look like this...
Again, literally no reason to have joints in those locations at all.
While it is not without some of its own drawbacks, it was designed by real engineers that put in the work to make sure it wouldn't just fail.
The aftermarket you have to be far more careful with, most don't do anywhere near the same level of engineering. And some don't do any, which is pretty clear with Gerst. Some of those designs are obviously a poor choice.
And, Engineers never make mistakes and correct them. Mine hasn't broken, do I look it over every now and then, yes. I still like it better. You like yours, I like mine, let's just leave it at that. Butttt, I am sure someone here will have to have the last word.
Everybody makes mistakes. But the amount of time, effort, and engineering that went into these cars originally is magnitudes of order greater than what was involved in designing the Gerst. Not comparable on any level. There are really basic design flaws with some of the Gerst stuff, not even engineering level stuff. That truck set up isn't even good common sense.
I ran CAP stuff originally on my Challenger, speaking of mistakes. I also **** can'd all of it the moment I had an issue with it. If I had an original Gerst that's where it would be now. QA1 had to re-design important structural components of the Gerst to get that design up to their standards, and if you look at the changes they made it's pretty clear where the mistakes and issues in the original design are.
I wonder how much supporting some of those old designs is going to cost them. I'm sure they realized it would cost them when they were redesigning it, and I'm sure they had some cost figured into that whole deal. Probably not that many people out there with them at least.
4spdragtop
Well-Known Member
Gentleman i had this conversation with was thoroughly impressed with QA1. Buyer sent pics and with no questions asked replacement was sent by QA1. Shipping included as well, didn't want defective pieces back.
I'm not suspension savvy by any means, so I can't critique one way or the other.
I'm not suspension savvy by any means, so I can't critique one way or the other.
This thread is 10 years old. I have 2 of Carl's front suspensions, and one of his triangulated 4-links. He lives an hour from me. He redesigned the one failure before QA 1 ever got it. I have had no issues, problems, or failures. So, more PT drill sergeant. You can knock me down all day, I will just keep getting back up. I'm ready, hit me again with all of the facts.
No product has 100 percent perfection that’s for sure. Search enough and you’ll find a complaint with any product. As long as customer service is good and it’s taken care of in a timely manner, I’m good with it.
That's awesome of QA1 to handle it that way.
I mean, they probably assumed some level of legal responsibility when they purchased Gerst so I wouldn't say it's out of the "goodness of their heart", but it sounds like they're making it easy which they definitely don't have to do.
QA1 changed a lot regarding the K frame design. Overall the appearance is similar but the thickness of the metal changed, the number of welds was reduced especially in stressed areas, etc. I would put the new design up there with the other offerings on the market, which is still not to say that there's anywhere near the level of engineering that went into the factory parts.
And how many miles have you run?
Most aftermarket stuff gets away with its lack of engineering because these cars just aren't used the way they used to be. A handful of trips to cars and coffee and a few weekends out is not the same as daily driver duty.
I'm not trying to bag on Gerst as a person, but he didn't engineer anything. He built it, and that's a completely different standard. From the beginning it was just a cheaper way to do a coil over conversion, to save a few bucks on already proven systems like the RMS and HDK. QA1 bought it, FIXED it, and now it costs the same as the other systems out there.
Your stuff hasn't failed, great. There are documented failures of Gerst K frames out there, the fact that your parts in particular haven't failed yet doesn't undo that.
That's true, but saying that isn't an excuse to put out a substandard product. Comparing it to factory designs is apples and oranges. No, factory isn't perfect either and the factory always does stuff for economic reasons so you can't ever say it was the "best" design. But there are industry standards they adhere to, which is completely different than a backyard builder selling stuff to the public.
Very true. But the problem causing the failures wasn’t welds or the design. I actually sat with QA1 at Hot Rod power tour and spoke to Dan, the engineer on this as I admittedly had concerns about mine after seeing the failures. The problem was the wrong batch of steel was used by the machine shop supplying the CNC cut pieces to Gerst. Due to supply chain issues, Gerst went with a new shop than he had been using. They used a more brittle steel by mistake. This being unknown to the welders. combined with the wrong filament used, caused the welds and surrounding metals to become extra brittle causing the failures. They only found out by testing the steel to determine its make up. Out of over 2000 kits sold by that point, only 9 recorded failures. But it was taken seriously despite the low percentage of failures.
However, to reduce the possibility of that happening again, they redesigned the construction of it to reduce the welds and added additional metals and thickness where needed.
A lot of people don’t know this, but the failures is actually what eventually led to the Gerst buyout offer by QA1. Carl reached out to them for assistance after the first couple failures, which by the way, he made right in full. QA1 started out doing all the cutting and bending for the kits that Carl and his team would later weld together .
Eventually QA1 made him an offer he couldn’t refuse.
That said, still doesn’t excuse the bent bolts on that D100 kit. And I do see room for improvement. But that’s the design process. No one wishes for any of these to fail as people could get hurt let alone the potential damage. Which is why it’s important to do routine checks on any vehicle, stock or otherwise. A lesson I once learned the hard way in my old truck after nearly flipping nose over tail when a factory hub failed at 33,000 miles.
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