Got a crazy Starting Issue! ........I mean nutz!

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Jerry G

Jerry G

SandFreaks
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So just picked up a 75 Dart with 318.
Its a semi basket case that runs ok.
Problem is it starts when it wants to.

Symptom:
Will start one day then the next I have absolutely no power to anything. Nothing works not even the emergency flashers.

What Ive tried:
Pulling hair out while screaming........that did nothing.
Fake Crying while pounding on whats left of the dash and telling her she would start for the PO why not me!!!........still nothing.
So I got serious.....

1. Replaced battery with a brand new one.
2. Replaced Starter Solinoid (sp?) This worked for awhile.
3. Moved wires around under dash while Wiggling key, shifter etc.
4. Traced power to Fusable link. (getting power)
5. started checking grounds - Battery to starter ok, Block to firewall is there and
visually looks ok.

Then things got into the Twilight Zone (you younger readers might have to google that to know what I mean :) )

I left the running lights on by accident during one of these no start / no power to anything tantrums. Went to do something else, and after awhile noticed the running lights were on. So hoped in it, turned the key and she fired right up!
What the hell?
Ok, so thinking this was just a coincedence ive tried it every time it does it.
And 4 times now it has started if I leave the lights on. It takes about an hour of sitting before it will start.
I can leave it for days and nothing works to try and get it started. Leave the running lights on and sure enough she fires up. WTF?

This last time I left the lights on after it wouldnt start and ran the battery dead. So I hooked up my portable starter and sure enough it started.
But.......
It would only run if I had the battery charger connected. Once I took it off it would die. Tried it 3 times and it died every time.
I also noticed the negative side of the battery sparks when I connect the charger.


Sooooo.....were the heck do I go from here?
Ive read the MAD Ahmeter bypass article. Should this be the next step or should I start somehere else?
I thought it might be a short but ive left the car sitting for more than 8 days at a time and it always has a good battery.

Maybe its the ugly side pipes? Would you want to go anywhere with those things hanging off your side? Me neither!

Thanks in advance for any insight!

d1.jpg
 
A few things come to mind. Ever see a battery explode? I have. It aint pretty. Keep connecting a battery charger when leads are live and you too will be a member in an exclusive club.
Please dont take it the wrong way, i honestly have your safety in mind.

Block it up (safely) and pop off your neutral start switch, see if its leaking. If not,heat gun and warm it up a little to get it back on, a zip-tie will help keep it snug.

Starter connection, cable and mounting bolts need to be clean.

Remove ground cable and clean block surface.
Ammeter as you suspect, can be bypassed.
Bad fuse links or improperly repaired ones can do this as well.

All free and not to difficult.
 
Jerry G said:
Maybe its the ugly side pipes? Would you want to go anywhere with those things hanging off your side? Me neither!
Click to expand...
I'll take the sidepipes over the beak.....sorry :(

Your charging system has a problem. Power is not getting from the alt to the batt, and it's probably getting lost in the bulkhead connector. And if that is true then I bet that is the source of the no crank as well. It takes power to energize the starter relay. Perhaps more than the bulkhead disconnect can pass. Power is electron flow, not necessarily volts. You can pass electricity thru a single strand of 14Ga wire and read 12V . But just try sucking some electron flow thru it and watch it evaporate.
Go straight to the bulkhead disconnect. Disconnect the battery and check the two fat boys in there.
 
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you know these cars have feelings and you keep calling it ugly....no wonder it wont start for you. ever see that movie christine?
 
Tooljunkie said:
A few things come to mind. Ever see a battery explode? I have. It aint pretty. Keep connecting a battery charger when leads are live and you too will be a member in an exclusive club.
Please dont take it the wrong way, i honestly have your safety in mind.

Block it up (safely) and pop off your neutral start switch, see if its leaking. If not,heat gun and warm it up a little to get it back on, a zip-tie will help keep it snug.

Starter connection, cable and mounting bolts need to be clean.

Remove ground cable and clean block surface.
Ammeter as you suspect, can be bypassed.
Bad fuse links or improperly repaired ones can do this as well.

All free and not to difficult.
Click to expand...

All Good ideas thank you.
I should have mentioned that I can Short the Starter Solinoid and it will crank over fine so at least thats ruled out.

I believe the neutral start switch has been removed. There is a reverse lockout floor shifter on it now.
 
AJ/FormS said:
I'll take the sidepipes over the beak.....sorry :(

Your charging system has a problem. Power is not getting from the alt to the batt, and it's probably getting lost in the bulkhead connector. And if that is true then I bet that is the source of the no crank as well. It takes power to energize the starter relay. Perhaps more than the bulkhead disconnect can pass. Power is electron flow, not necessarily volts. You can pass electricity thru a single strand of 14Ga wire and read 12V . But just try sucking some electron flow thru it and watch it evaporate.
Go straight to the bulkhead disconnect. Disconnect the battery and check the two fat boys in there.
Click to expand...
As far as the beak I totally agree! Just picked up a 69 that will be donating its grill, hood etc to the cause. And its entire rear + Deck lid (future project after it can drive down the road without scarying the **** out of me)

I wondered about that connecter.......ill pull it pretty soon and report back.

Thank you
 
zombywoof said:
you know these cars have feelings and you keep calling it ugly....no wonder it wont start for you. ever see that movie christine?
Click to expand...
Oh sure ive seen it, learned some valuable lessons - then I married a woman whos name is "Kristin" ........very close......coincedence??? Maybe..
 
All good ideas - thanks guys!
But can anyone shed a little light on why pulling the light switch out
has an effect on getting it to start?
 
Check to see that the wires are tight on your ignition switch. So many people tie accessories in and out directly on the switch that I found erratic starting to be the exact problem on an old car I have. Keep in mind that electrical problems on older cars are caused by wiring problems far more often than component failures.
 
RichB said:
Check to see that the wires are tight on your ignition switch. So many people tie accessories in and out directly on the switch that I found erratic starting to be the exact problem on an old car I have. Keep in mind that electrical problems on older cars are caused by wiring problems far more often than component failures.[/QUOTE

Are you reffering to a Dash mounted Ignition Switch?
Mine is a 75, so Column mounted ignition. I have pulled and proded the wires from the switch but have not discovered a loose wire yet. PO changed the ignition - probably trying to find the same problem. He failed to mention it though. I got a good deal so expected some things to be off.
Click to expand...
 
Maybe I missed it but I'm not seeing specifics

WHAT ARE the specifics?

1...Does it crank or not? "Crank" means the starter operates normally, rotating the engine when you twist the key.

If not post back and let's start right there

2....If 1 (cranks) OK, when it is acting up does it try to fire (try to start, cough, fire and quit?) at all?

If not try to determine is it fuel or ignition.

A........Buy yourself a spark tester gap. When it acts up, STOP right there, insert the tester gap, and operate the starter and determine once and for all if it's got good spark

B.......Is it fuel? When it won't try and fire, get a light if necessary, look down the carb throat and operarate the throttle. See if the carb accelerator pump shoots any fuel

If you are not sure, pull a few plugs, determine if they are fuel wet, or dry.

Try tossing about a tablespoon of good fresh fuel down the carb throat and see if it at least fires.

"Other stuff." No idea what you've done, has it had a recent tune up? What condition are the cap, rotor, plug wires, and COIL WIRE?

What shape is the carb in?
 
I was thinking of a dash mounted ignition switch, but the point is the same. Examine the wires closely. Look for burns, melts , cracks, etc. The fact that you can jump the solenoid and it starts, points (me) to the ignition switch.
 
As far as you starting it with the dead battery, alternator was busy trying to recover battery, ate up so much voltage ign didnt get enough.

When i plowed snow with my power wagon, i ran battery down liw enough to stall truck. Discovered alternator was weak/dying. Popped in a gooder and all was fine.
 
Jerry G said:
As far as the beak I totally agree! Just picked up a 69 that will be donating its grill, hood etc to the cause. And its entire rear + Deck lid (future project after it can drive down the road without scarying the **** out of me)

I wondered about that connecter.......ill pull it pretty soon and report back.

Thank you
Click to expand...
Good Man Jerry! goodman.
 
67Dart273 said:
Maybe I missed it but I'm not seeing specifics

WHAT ARE the specifics?

1...Does it crank or not? "Crank" means the starter operates normally, rotating the engine when you twist the key.

If not post back and let's start right there

2....If 1 (cranks) OK, when it is acting up does it try to fire (try to start, cough, fire and quit?) at all?

If not try to determine is it fuel or ignition.

A........Buy yourself a spark tester gap. When it acts up, STOP right there, insert the tester gap, and operate the starter and determine once and for all if it's got good spark

B.......Is it fuel? When it won't try and fire, get a light if necessary, look down the carb throat and operarate the throttle. See if the carb accelerator pump shoots any fuel

If you are not sure, pull a few plugs, determine if they are fuel wet, or dry.

Try tossing about a tablespoon of good fresh fuel down the carb throat and see if it at least fires.

"Other stuff." No idea what you've done, has it had a recent tune up? What condition are the cap, rotor, plug wires, and COIL WIRE?

What shape is the carb in?
Click to expand...
When it decides not to start nothing works at all no lights no cranking no flashers no dome lite etc. I can jump the leads on the starter solinoid and it will crank but there is no power getting to the coil etc. Once I have the lights on for awhile it will fire right up and runs well.
 
Jerry G said:
When it decides not to start nothing works at all no lights no cranking no flashers no dome lite etc. I can jump the leads on the starter solinoid and it will crank but there is no power getting to the coil etc. Once I have the lights on for awhile it will fire right up and runs well.
Click to expand...
Forgot to mention that when turn the light switch to running lights , nothing comes on. Its all still dead. Then ill come back in about an 40 minutes and the running lights will be on and it will start.
 
Tooljunkie said:
Bulkhead connector. Bet you got a burned terminal.
Click to expand...

Pretty much............READ the Mad electrical article. Even if you don't do that mod, it's a good overview on primary power distribution

Start by REALLY cleaning the battery clamps/ posts, and after jumpering/ cranking the starter for say, 10-15 solid seconds, feel both ends of both cables for heat

Catalog

Pay attention to the diagram posted there.........it's a great simplified diagram of the main power in the car......

amp-ga18.jpg


Follow along.........."functional" power path, IE not electron flow:

From battery power makes it's way to the BIG STUD on the STARTER RELAY. This is one contact of the relay but also a major junction

From there the FUSE LINK.....................CHECK IT!!!!

To the feed through terminal of the bulkhead connector (RED) CHECK IT. There is only one way....separate the connector and inspect. Inspect for ANY burn/ melt damage as shown in the article above.

Then current goes to the AMMETER (RED) and out the AMMETER BLACK
THIS IS ACTUALLY THREE MORE failure points..........the red and black wire ends and trouble in the ammeter itself. CHECK IT

The the power from the AMMETER (BLACK) goes to the WELDED SPLICE IMPORTANT!!!! This splice rarely fails but CAN AND HAS. Check everything else FIRST and if you still have problems, you will have to remove the cluster, untape the harness from the black ammeter wire to check the splice. THESE HAVE FAILED!!!

From the WELDED SPLICE power goes back out through the BULKEAD CONNECTOR (large BLACK) and back out to the ALTERNATOR

HOW TO TROUBLESHOOT:

Get the problem to "show up." Turn on and "indicator" such as key/ accessory / radio, and or headlights. Now systematically start wiggling connectors. Start out under the hood, and try to wiggle ONLY the fuse link. Try not to wiggle the bulkhead connector.

Now "jump" inside reach up and find the ammeter connections. Wiggle those. Now "jump" back out under the hood and wiggle the bulkhead connector.
 
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To sum up, on the diagram above, your answer lies on the current path from battery.....fuse link..........bulkhead connector......ammeter.......welded spice.

Notice I did NOT mention any other components.

Go to MyMopar.com if you have not done so and download a factory service manual and then go to their wiring section and download the aftermarket simplified wiring diagrams.
 
A great, basic diagram. However, important paths not shown are the grounds completing the circuits back to the - battery.
One common problem is the dashboard not keeping a good ground to the body. I am going to add a ground wire from the dash to the body of my 65 barracuda. You may want to do the same just to be safe.
 
Engine to body ground- way more important. Have seen odd things happen when it goes bad or is left off.
 
RichB said:
A great, basic diagram. However, important paths not shown are the grounds completing the circuits back to the - battery.
One common problem is the dashboard not keeping a good ground to the body. I am going to add a ground wire from the dash to the body of my 65 barracuda. You may want to do the same just to be safe.
Click to expand...

I already mentioned that and he stated he can jump the starter and it will crank. This means the ground is likely "fine." This problem as he has described has nothing to do with the dash/ instruments
 
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