Gotta get this sorted out!

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Finally! These are the FR5's

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I like Taylors too. Firecore would be an equal. MSD makes a good wire too. You can order the ends you want and make them yourself too. Or grab the 90 degree terminals and boots separately and reterminate those. Funny thing with wires. Some last for...ever. Some don't. Condition-wise they all look the same...lol. Fact is if it's arcing - it's bad. Period. There might be other circumstances helping cause it, but from what you describe there isn't. 5 & 7 need some pretty firm looming to stay in decent shape, or grab those sleeves to protect them. Or put 90 ends on them...lol. Either way the energy has to get from the coil to the plug with no loss of power. And it's more important than anything else you might play with. If it runs bad, and the plugs look bad, then it's time to replace them, but they might only be the symptom and not the cause. Keep chasing it. Sounds like you're getting closer.
 
Gonna try some NGK 6962's (BKR6E)

These should be the next step down in Heat range from FR5's.

Anybody run them in a similar engine?
 
Nobody local has wire I want. Ordered two sets of Taylors from Jegs (One 90° boots and one straight). Took advantage of the 20% up to $50 off sale Advance is running until midnight and bought a Proform 750 mechanical secondary by getting JEGS to price match, also a nice fuel inlet, Lokar throttle cable, JEGS return springs, and a crank socket for my degree wheel.Not gonna put the carb on until I find the problem, but it was too good a deal to pass up.

Will update after I get the parts and get wires and plugs installed.

Thanks for all the help!
 
KnuckleDuster said:
Nobody local has wire I want. Ordered two sets of Taylors from Jegs (One 90° boots and one straight). Took advantage of the 20% up to $50 off sale Advance is running until midnight and bought a Proform 750 mechanical secondary by getting JEGS to price match, also a nice fuel inlet, Lokar throttle cable, JEGS return springs, and a crank socket for my degree wheel.Not gonna put the carb on until I find the problem, but it was too good a deal to pass up.

Will update after I get the parts and get wires and plugs installed.

Thanks for all the help!
Click to expand...
Taylors 135 degree boot works great with headers.
The carb , at least its tune ,may be the problem...the plug pics are a little fuzzy, look for black/dark specs on insulators to rule out detonation.
 
Between a nine day stretch without a day off, and some heavy duty dental work, I have not had a chance to do much except read up on posts with similar issues.
Just didn't want to make anybody trying to help think I'm leaving them hanging.
I see so many threads like this that never mention any resoloution, it gets very frustrating reading them, just to end up wondering if they ever found the problem.

I'm in the process of installing the new throttle cable and getting ready to mount the new carb, as well as the new plugs and wires. I know I should probably try one thing at a time, but two of my wires are suspect, plugs are too high of a heat range, and I have been wanting a new carb. I have had no luck with either my 1413 or 1406, regardless of rod, jet, and spring changes.
If the problem is still there after all that, thinking of trying a different coil. Mine is an MSD Blaster, anybody recommend a different coil Advance or O'Reilly would carry? I can return it at either, so it would be free to rule it out.
 
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Just got done installing a lokar throttle cable, Proform 750, and cut a fresh set of Taylor wires. Put in NGK 6962's gapped to .036 (closest to .035 I could get with my brass feeler guages).
Took it out for a romp in my usual spot. It'a secluded highway ramp, but it has train tracks about 100ft from the light, so I'm nailing it from a 30mph roll.
NO MORE BUCKING, SURGING, LOSING POWER!!!
Since it did it with two other carbs and three sets of plugs, I have to guess it was a bad wire.
On the driver's side, I gave up my R&M looms, and re-routed 1&3 way away from the headers. 5&7 are 90° boots looped well away from the headers also.
I'm going to have to tweak the carb a little, but things are getting better!
Hopefully I can get my AFR meter in sometime in the next two weeks to see what's really going on under load.
The FR4 plugs I pulled out were a little confusing to try and read. I took a couple pics but still having trouble posting .
Trying to read them after sitting at multiple traffic lights is probably moot anyway.
 
which is why one thing/issue at a time is more revealing of the actual problem, but the carburetors tune was more than likely the issue. Youre back to the same plugs you started with except new, was good to rule out arcing with re routing the wires. Unfortunately no clear answer for the next guys similar issue other than changing all your plug wires , plugs, and buying a new carburetor.
 
After trying multiple rod and jet combinations on both the 600cfm and the 800cfm I have a hard time believing it was both carbs. Actually these are not the same plugs. I started with FR5's , then tried FR4's by mistake, and the new ones are a 6 heat range.
I snapped some pics of the FR4's when I took them out but still can't dump enough data off my phone to get enough memory to upload them.
I wanted to wait to install the carb but I got pressed for time to get it back on the road.
Sorry for not having a definitive answer for you guys, but I really appreciate all the help.
 
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Now I need to start tweaking this carb a bit. I set the choke with a credit card size gap fully closed.It runs pretty good, but it seems like it's loading up at stoplights, the idle drops a few hundred rpm. Also sometimes when I let off from 40mph or so it's kind of sputtering.
I've never had a carb with four corner idle adjustment. What is the best way to go about setting it?
From the factory settings, I tried a quarter turn lean on all four and the idle went up, and i backed it down. It seemed like off idle response was quicker, but it acted like it wanted to die if I was coasting. I tried a quarter turn lean just on the secondaries and drove it 15 miles home, but it started losing rpm at the last stoplight, so I m moved it back to stock when I got home.
I don't have any jets yet , but where should I start to try and get it to run good on the street?
Sorry, It has been a long time since I messed with a Holley type carb, and I have much to learn.

Gonna go pull the #1 plug and see how it looks...
 
KnuckleDuster said:
Now I need to start tweaking this carb a bit. I set the choke with a credit card size gap fully closed.It runs pretty good, but it seems like it's loading up at stoplights, the idle drops a few hundred rpm. Also sometimes when I let off from 40mph or so it's kind of sputtering.
I've never had a carb with four corner idle adjustment. What is the best way to go about setting it?
From the factory settings, I tried a quarter turn lean on all four and the idle went up, and i backed it down. It seemed like off idle response was quicker, but it acted like it wanted to die if I was coasting. I tried a quarter turn lean just on the secondaries and drove it 15 miles home, but it started losing rpm at the last stoplight, so I m moved it back to stock when I got home.
I don't have any jets yet , but where should I start to try and get it to run good on the street?
Sorry, It has been a long time since I messed with a Holley type carb, and I have much to learn.

Gonna go pull the #1 plug and see how it looks...
Click to expand...
Usually...close all idle screws , then turn them out each exactly 3/4 of a turn. No matter where they end up...they all want to be the same amount. Fire it up....see if it idles, if not raise them to one turn out each and try to start it again... If you have a tackometer , for instance on your timing light...once running , put it in gear with the e brake on and a tire wedge....you can open the idle screws a hair more each till the rpm STOPS increasing, there can be a fine line...so pay attention to rpm and also know that sometimes you might want to set them just a hair under max rpm so that you can keep the stink down.
when it comes to jetting...it can be night and day by only one jet size. So with the primaries first...see what stock jets are and go buy 2 sets of jets , let's say they are 71's....buy a pair of 69's and 70's. If it has 75's ...get 74's & 73's.
Put smaller jets in it till it surges a little at cruise, 50 mph & up is a good testing cruise speed., once it surges go back up a jet size (Till it doesn't surge but no more jet then that for now) That will be your leanest cruise you can safely run and will best mileage from and keep the carbon build down. Next you will play with the secondaries, usually you can just stay with the factory size...but chances are they can be a size too big as well, but probably not much more than that.
With the power valve...you want to see what you vacuum is in gear at idle and pick a power about half to 2/3 the vacuum reading you get. That will set you up well and from there you can start fiddling the pump shot or cams.
 
Pulled six plugs. One and four were fouled.
What's the best way to clean them up before I put them back in?

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20170211_122553.jpg
 
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Finally able to upload photos!

Here are the FR4's I pulled out yesterday.

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20170210_155501.jpg
 
I would use the fr5 , and if you don't see any specs on the fr4's then you might give them another try with the new carb. The fr6 is too cold imo.
 
I adjusted the four idle screws likeMopar official suggested. I ended up 1-1/8 turns out from lightly seated. Car ran good at first.


Just ran the FR4's again.
Here is what they look like. 1,4, and7 are fouled just like the BKR6E's.
Starts to lose rpm at long lights idleing in drive, then the exhaust note starts fluctuating as I lightly ease into it up to a 50mph cruise speed.


What would cause only three cylinders to foul with two totally different sets of plugs like this?

20170212_173527.jpg


20170212_173754.jpg
 
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Anybody good at reading plugs want to take a stab at what's going on with these in the last few pics?
I have been conparing them to a chart I have but being inexperienced, I can't really tell for sure.
 
I can see down into one of them and it seems to show a decent wot af, but the rest is rich and fouling and when they foul ...they don't fire or very well and you will lose rpm like you did. I think there is a chance that you are not in the idle circuit, I don't believe you should need 1 1/8 turns out on the 4 idle screws, but hey... Get new plugs 1st, raise the initial timing to 25 or so, set the idle screws at 3/4-7/8 each.....and let it sit and idle. Check the plugs around the base for dark color but no soft soot, you don't want soot.
Give all the carb specs, jetting, PV, shooter size. You probably needed more initial to keep the carbs throttle blade square with the transfer slot....you night be idling on the mains and that will foul plugs.
Now again....if you aren't leaning the primary jets down and just running it as is...not only might you be in the main circuit while idling...but also just re fouling the plugs also by too much jet.
now I don't see soot on all the plugs, but you could have a fuel distrubution issue In the intake or ring/valve sealing problems.
I would be getting the idle position fixed first before driving it...then I would be leaning those jets and seeing the plugs clean up.


After all this....I hope you have good spark, check it and see if its orange colored...that means you have a problem with too lil spark energy, ignition issue still.
 
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Here's factory specs

20170211_144217.jpg



I checked the t-ports and even with the idle screw all the way out they are not close to square.
I noticed all the fouled plugs are on the lower plane of the manifold.
I was running a 1" wood spacer and found the pcv hose was not tight. I pulled the spacer and put a clamp on the hose. The nearest store with FR5's is 20mi away. Gonna reinstall the 4's and test again after work.
 
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Four corner idling can be a pest. IMO - the fouling is an idle setting issue. So my approach would be set initial timing. Then concentrate on the idle speed and mixture settings. Then PV rating. Then jetting.
Three questions:
What initial timing do you have?
Have you made any adjustment to the secondary idle speed screw?
What is the idle vacuum reading in gear with the engine hot?
 
Thanks Moper. I will try to give you some answers in the next few days.
Got jammed up with work and errands today.
 
Got home from work and cleaned up the FR4's and reinstalled. Started over with the 4 corner screws, set them 3/4 turns out and cranked it...
Two pumps of the pedal and.....flooded it trying to fill the bowls I emptied last night checking the t-port....Damn!
By the time it cleared up the electric choke had opened all the way from the key being on, but it fired up and idled stone cold. It's never wanted to run under 150° without a choke before.
I noticed a little eye burn so I started leaning it out a hair at a time, and rpms started coming up. I stopped at just under a half turn and it smelled right so I left it there. Messed around with the throttle cable adjustment to take out some slack and took it around the block. Realised it was idleing a little high when it warmed up, and readjusted to a tiny bit of slack. I took it out and when I got to the access road I rolled into it. Spun in second just a bit and then broke them loose for a second going into third as I slowly laid into it...hmmm...never done that before!
I looped around on the next exit and got into it a little faster. Shift points were good but it kicked down into second from third about half throttle so I pulled in a parking lot and loosened the Lokar kickdown cable until I had about a 16th gap with the cable pulled out and the throttle wide open. I pulled out and made a right onto the feeder going uphill. Rolled into it pretty good and was pleasantly surprised! No bog, no stumble or surging, and I got past the speed limit VERY quickly! I let off and got on the highway to go two exits down to my favorite T&T spot mentioned above. There is a VW dealership and then a mile down is a Dodge dealer, I nailed it at both from 50mph. Proably made a VW buyer think twice and sold an SRT Challenger, lol...
Got to the next light, waited on green, eased over the train tracks and floored it! It broke loose but I stayed in it, then into third they spun again. I couldn't look down at first, but when I let off I saw 110mph and started looking around for cops.

What a blast!!
Thanks guys! It has never run this good before.
Gonna pull plugs in the morning and take a peek.
Have to order a tuning kit with jets and power valves, and maybe a cam kit, so not able to play with the tune too much more yet. I wanna get my A/F meter in first to save me guessing, but I am real happy with the improvement so far, and can't wait.


Btw- timing right now is 19-33 in by 3000...I can at least play with that until I get a day off to go have bungs welded in. Gonna try and map the curve and see what I can tweak.
 
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KnuckleDuster said:
Got home from work and cleaned up the FR4's and reinstalled. Started over with the 4 corner screws, set them 3/4 turns out and cranked it...
Two pumps of the pedal and.....flooded it trying to fill the bowls I emptied last night checking the t-port....Damn!
By the time it cleared up the electric choke had opened all the way from the key being on, but it fired up and idled stone cold. It's never wanted to run under 150° without a choke before.
I noticed a little eye burn so I started leaning it out a hair at a time, and rpms started coming up. I stopped at just under a half turn and it smelled right so I left it there. Messed around with the throttle cable adjustment to take out some slack and took it around the block. Realised it was idleing a little high when it warmed up, and readjusted to a tiny bit of slack. I took it out and when I got to the access road I rolled into it. Spun in second just a bit and then broke them loose for a second going into third as I slowly laid into it...hmmm...never done that before!
I looped around on the next exit and got into it a little faster. Shift points were good but it kicked down into second from third about half throttle so I pulled in a parking lot and loosened the Lokar kickdown cable until I had about a 16th gap with the cable pulled out and the throttle wide open. I pulled out and made a right onto the feeder going uphill. Rolled into it pretty good and was pleasantly surprised! No bog, no stumble or surging, and I got past the speed limit VERY quickly! I let off and got on the highway to go two exits down to my favorite T&T spot mentioned above. There is a VW dealership and then a mile down is a Dodge dealer, I nailed it at both from 50mph. Proably made a VW buyer think twice and sold an SRT Challenger, lol...
Got to the next light, waited on green, eased over the train tracks and floored it! It broke loose but I stayed in it, then into third they spun again. I couldn't look down at first, but when I let off I saw 110mph and started looking around for cops.

What a blast!!
Thanks guys! It has never run this good before.
Gonna pull plugs in the morning and take a peek.
Have to order a tuning kit with jets and power valves, and maybe a cam kit, so not able to play with the tune too much more yet. I wanna get my A/F meter in first to save me guessing, but I am real happy with the improvement so far, and can't wait.


Btw- timing right now is 19-33 in by 3000...I can at least play with that until I get a day off to go have bungs welded in. Gonna try and map the curve and see what I can tweak.
Click to expand...
See...lol , so the FR4's work , still check for specs, and you didn't need that fat an idle.
Glad this is coming together for ya.
19 and 33? Can you raise the initial to 22 and stay at that total?
 
I have an FBO limiter plate in the distributor, so yeah, i could. Will play around with it.
 
Still fighting the 4500rpm dead end at WOT!

Things I have tried-

3 different carbs - Edelbrock 1406 650cfm, 1411 800cfm, and Proform 750 cfm.
New plug wires.
New plugs in 3 different heat ranges.
New cap and rotor.
Tested spark on intake bolt from Blaster II coil which was good and swapped in a Pertronics coil to be sure it wasn't giving out with heat/high rpms.
Had alternator tested.
New Edelbrock fuel pump.
Eliminated filter before pump.
Blew out sender, vent, fuel lines and checked sock and tube connections on the sender for pinholes.
Ran without gas cap.
Checked and replaced all rubber with EFI hose and clamps.
Ran a pressure guage to cabin and pressure drops to zero 3-5 sec into WOT.
Inspected fuel pump eccentric through fuel pump hole in timing cover and saw no signs of wear.
Ground wire from voltage regulator to inner fender bolt for booster brace.
Ran a timing light to windshield and it flashed all through test run.
Confirmed timing and tried +/- 2°, currently set at 20° initial and 36°total

Rpm/°

800-20
1000-20
1380/21
1570-21
1800-21
2150-21
2399-29
2500-29
2770-32
3090-34
3270-36



Today I am cutting out this section of fuel line with three 90° bends to eliminate the chance it is causing a restriction, and adding a heat sheath over the foreward 3ft of fuel line near the header.

I have not yet done a volume test, but may try it today.

This has got to be something stupid and simple!
What could I be missing?

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