If you are building an engine today (~2023), Professionals are not building Hydraulic FLat Tappet camshaft engines? Don't try?

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junkyardhero said:
I think the hullabaloo is people are finding issues with cams and lifters produced now that are showing the effects of poor metallurgy, hardness, and QC and thus, failure.

so, they did make stuff better back in the day. literally.
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If you watch the second video, they test multiple camshafts across different manufactures including FAILED LIFTERS AND CAMSHAFT LOBES-ROckwell hardness tester, EVERY SINGLE valvetrain component tested passed the hardness tested. The engine builder said that the 'CROWN ARC TAPER' {1.5 TO 3 THOUSANDTHS TAPER) was the only culprit of failure that they could pin point, besides misuse of oil (combining ZDDP break in additive with modern oil that has detergents which wipe out the ZDDP off of the Camshaft/Lifter face.
 
I have two juice cam builds going right now. I do not anticipate any issues. The customers have been informed that there is no warranty against camshaft or lifter failure.

My stuff that I beat on is all solid roller now. Prior to that I beat the hell out of my 451 with a comp 294h with 1.6's. Being a hydraulic it didn't RPM well however it was reliable in that area. All you can do is make sure the lifters rotate, engine develops oil pressure immediately and watch the lash for a few oil changes.
 
I got NOS Johnson Hydraulic lifters from one of the members here Bigbill, I will check the taper. All this cam failures talk has got me spooked
 
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greymouser7 said:
" I can't believe the cam companies are still in business if failure rates are as high as it seems."
In one of the videos the Professional engine builder claims that Cam COmpanies can out wait the builder in regards to compensating or addressing the financial consequences of production failure. I illustrate multiple videos where builder after builder claim that this is significant problem.
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.......Yet there are tons of examples citing no failure. I agree that there appears to some deficiencies in the cam manufacturing quality control. I don't think this is unique to this industry alone. But, thanks to the research you have posted, we know what to look for. Checking and re-checking will hopefully circumvent the problems outlined.........LOL I sure hope so!:)
 
David Vizard has a cam/lifter expose.
In it he claims to have tested many many cams and many more lifters, and as to Rockwell hardness and lifter crowns, they all passed muster; According to him, they are NOT the problem .... per se.
His analysis, IIRC, is that modern detergent oils and bottled ZDDP additives, are NOT compatible, and so you really need to install oils that are already engineered with the proper formulation..
having said that; He is also one of the guys who has eschewed FT cams; even tho,
he shows FT cams to be faster off the seat, and in his experience,
do not give up much power to rollers, especially as the lifters get larger in diameter.

Geez, guys; I figured/guessed as much, back in 1999, when I sped'd my engine.
My First line of defense back in 1999 was the engine oiling mods. the Second was a hi-volume pump. and Third was a 7-qt oilpan.
And after losing a FTH cam in 2004, the Fourth was to flood the top end with oil, to cool the valve gear, and Fifth was to drain the lifter valley onto the cam by drilling holes in the pockets between the lifters. In 2002 I raised the minimum coolant temp to 205*F, after re-engineering the cooling system.
Does it work?
IDK
But what I do know, is that since 2004, I only ever reset the lifter preload once., and it didn't take much; and I have been waiting ever since then, for the cam to die, so that I can downsize; but the little wheels just keep on turning.
 
I just sold a new 509 lift purple hydraulic shaft cam and 15 year old lifters yesterday and that guy was happy to get them.
 
pittsburghracer said:
I just sold a new 509 lift purple hydraulic shaft cam and 15 year old lifters yesterday and that guy was happy to get them.
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I'm running that very cam. I like it in my 360. Runs fine. Alot of people have given nothing but hate for it. Mine runs very well I think. I removed the 280 mopar for it. The 280 ran good also.
 
An engine builder builds x amount of engines a year they will see more failures. I have built 4 engines in the last 20 years and have one going together now as a hobby /part time builder. I haven't seen any failures. I do believe the tappets are coming through truly flat and that is an issue they need to be convex so they rotate. The parts are being made bad. I had a rod bearing without the oil hole drilled into the halves. I had to make it myself. The parts need to be inspected as the engine goes together, and you have to know what you are looking for. The engine builders are pushing roller cams so their life is made easier...they don't want to check 16 lifters for the convex bottom on every build. i went through the same crap with my plumber he wanted to install PEX because it was quick and easy I told him "Ill sweat the pipes in I want copper..." In and out at half the time for the same price you'd charge for a days work unh huh...
 
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I still maintain that the rod bearing squirt hole has a lot to do with pre-mature lobe failures. (Yes, I know that supposed to be for the cylinder wall lube).
It seems to me the lobe failure issue started when the squirt hole disappeared cuz of roller rockers, coincidence, I think not .
I always modify the new shells to "squirt", and haven't had a failure ever, and since Comps issues, that's over 20+ engines, - since Comp had their " soft " shaft issue.
I don't use Comp **** since I had the opportunity to refresh engines, both mine, and a few "professionally" built engines, and found many Comp components with near terminal wear, - scary.
The last 6 yrs I've been building roundy-round engines, mostly 4 cylinders, with huge spring pressures, buzzing to 7500 - 9000 rpm and on the chip, never seen a lobe wear out on them ! !
Curious don't you think ?
I will continue to use FT cams till I have a failure .
 
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I guess my point is dont beleive what you hear on the interwebz. Until I actually experience it, I am pressing forward with my build (s) Ill know when its over and the parts are totally pot metal Chinesium LOL!
 
inertia said:
I still maintain that the rod bearing squirt hole has a lot to do with pre-mature lobe failures. (Yes, I know that supposed to be for the cylinder wall lube).
It seems to me the lobe failure issue started when the squirt hole disappeared cuz of roller rockers, coincidence, I think not .
I always modify the new shells to "squirt", and haven't had a failure ever. That's over 20+ engines, - since Comp had their " soft " shaft issue.
I don't use Comp **** since I had the opportunity to refresh engines, both mine, and a few "professionally" built engines, and found many with near terminal wear, - scary.
The last 6 yrs I've been building roundy-round engines, mostly 4 cylinders, with huge spring pressures, buzzing to 7500 - 9000 rpm and on the chip, never seen a lobe wear out on them ! !
Curious don't you think ?
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Thanks for the info it never even dawned on me to look for that, BTW do you happen to have a pic of the hole you made. TIA
 
I'd say give it up if you can't tell the difference between a good or bad part. That includes the material it's made from.
all parts should be inspected and cleaned before moving forward with install, this includes pulling apart hydraulic lifters and inspecting for burrs and cleanliness.
 
m79ded said:
Thanks for the info it never even dawned on me to look for that, BTW do you happen to have a pic of the hole you made. TIA
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Sorry, never thought to take pic, I just use an angle grinder, and put a notch in the shell where the hole used to be , dress as nec.
 
I think I used a small file to get the groove started finished up with a round. I came across the same issue with a 1988 Ford 5.0 truck engine(NON HO) it was flat tappet in 88. all you need is that oil hole opened the hole could be square if thats all you have is square files...LOL!
 
fishmens67 said:
I'd say give it up if you can't tell the difference between a good or bad part. That includes the material it's made from.
all parts should be inspected and cleaned before moving forward with install, this includes pulling apart hydraulic lifters and inspecting for burrs and cleanliness.
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Some cant tell or they are in a hurry. I will use Uncle Tony's 318 build with lunar as a reference to this. Watch Nicks garage to see the dirt that was in that build. That was a 1 day build. Too many hands on it they didn't catch that the bearings were the wrong size...? I have a turned crank and I will plasti guage all the journals even though i could tell you right now, i could get away with doing 1 rod 1 main...but i am not in a hurry. I have miced the crank and unless the bearing shells are stamped wrong its good to go.
 
Dartswinger70 said:
Some cant tell or they are in a hurry. I will use Uncle Tony's 318 build with lunar as a reference to this. Watch Nicks garage to see the dirt that was in that build. That was a 1 day build. Too many hands on it they didn't catch that the bearings were the wrong size...? I have a turned crank and I will plasti guage all the journals even though i could tell you right now, i could get away with doing 1 rod 1 main...but i am not in a hurry. I have miced the crank and unless the bearing shells are stamped wrong its good to go.
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I'll tell you why, I got a crank back from machine shop, from my friend, we went to school together, best machinist I ever had pleasure working with.
I used to trust him, never made a mistake, till he did.
One journal was 1/2 done right, 1/2 not.
I check EVERY part, every part ! !
 
I just sold a new 509 lift purple hydraulic shaft cam
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That's the cam that was in my last engine.... I say last engine because the cam failed and took everything else with it. I do miss the sound of it though.
 
inertia said:
I'll tell you why, I got a crank back from machine shop, from my friend, we went to school together, best machinist I ever had pleasure working with.
I used to trust him, never made a mistake, till he did.
One journal was 1/2 done right, 1/2 not.
I check EVERY part, every part ! !
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I agree, to not check my crank would be a gamble. I already miced the crank but you never know what if the bearings are jacked up? basically you check things sometimes twice, and always keep things clean and rust free.
 
I'm only ever building roller cam motors from now on. More power, less bullshit.

The juice ain't worth the squeeze.
 
Fwiw, I have only had one engine with issues of a flat tappet cam. It was a 426 Hemi. A gentleman that I do a bit of work for(literally a fleet of Mopars) had the Hemi built for a 68 Charger. He brought it to me to put exhaust tips on and replace a blown driver's side exhaust manifold gasket. That job is a PITA in itself. But, after quieting up the manifold, I could hear excessive valvetrain noise from the passenger's side. I didn't build the engine, I made him aware of the noise. He said go ahead and look. Cyl 6 intake lobe WIPED THE F:#@K OUT! Long story shorter, I wound up in the middle of a shitshow. It was wore enough that it bent the pushrod and beat the hell out of the rocker. Removed, disassembled, cleaned and installed a new cam from the gentlemen who did it in the first place. That was one POS Hemi. Destroyed then brought back Mopar block. Bottoms of two cylinders were "notched" from previous blow up. Lifter bores bushed but not clearanced correctly. Piston skirts scuffed to ****. Complete mess. First cam was a Crane with the dumb bell solid lifters. Second was a Comp with their juice lifters. Taper was ok. Lifters were ok. Did a rotation test during mock up and cam degreeing. Cup 6 intake didn't want to rotate. I literally switched every lifter in that spot and none would rotate. Honed the bushing slightly and all seemed good. Had rotation. Put it together. I always use the Gibbs Driven assembly grease on lobe and lifter faces. Primed with 10w30 Penn. Lined up ignition, primed carbs, hit like right now. Ran perfect during the 30 min break in. After cool down, checked cyl 6 intake. When rolling it over, the lifter would rotate coming up on the lobe, then go opposite on the way back down. Like a corkscrew type of motion. Unlashed it, slid the rocker over, pulled the lifter. Nice little groove right down the middle of the face. F!::$@#k me! Filter caught the debris this time. Disassemble and clean again. Found an old Direct Connection Hemi grind. All good after that. Only engine I've had issue with. And I don't really think it was the cams or lifters. I've done four juice engines in the last two years, no issues.
 
Yeah like said untill it happens to me I'll keep plugging along. I will check lifters for the convex bottom. I just did a flat tappet street engine 5 years ago no issues so...yeah I don't know what's going on. I do agree though, if I was starting from scratch now as in I was just getting started in the car hobby etc. I'd build a magnum roller tappet engine I do agree with that logic. I'd go 5.9/360, but that's just my opinion. There are alot of small details to be checked when going together and thigs have to be real clean like said. If you miss one little thing, and a flat tappet lifter hangs up in the bore? that would do it also.

church lady.jpg
 
Some of the problem is that people assemble their engines and then let them sit,doing this causes the break in lube on the cam to dry up. A good friend of mine has broken in several flattappet cams with no problems. I forgot what break in oil that he uses, also he use both lighter valve spring's and a 1.3 rocker arms. Run time is between 20-30 minutes and at 1600 to 2300 rpm's. He's never had a cam issue
 
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