ignition

Discussion in 'Electrical and Ignition' started by barbee6043, Oct 11, 2018.

  1. barbee6043

    barbee6043 barbee 6043

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    Back on the '62 Lancer. I have 12.5 at batt., same in and out bulkhead, cleaned bulkhead terminals best I can. The brown wire at ballast in start reads 9.5 v. Same v. inside under dash at the inside of bulkhead.
    I have traced voltage as thus: Replaced the ingnition switch, and checked v. there. At the terminals of the switch I have 12.5 v. there at hot black wire terminal. AT switch .WITH ign. on and checking at post for IGN.2 ( key on ign.1 spot) it tests 6.5 volts. Cranking, at same post ign, 2 it reads just 9.5, should be 12.5 correct? . THIS is a new switch. Is this reading of 6.5 v. at ign. 2 terminal in RUN position ( ign.1) correct or is that a tip off that I have a short in the pug that pugs into the switch??
    If I check v. at the firewall bulkhead UNDER the dash, it reads just 9.5 v. like at the switch at ign. 2 post (brown wire).
    Is there a short in the connection plug there at the ign switch or is the wire "bad" (brown wire) from the switch leading up to the firewall and/or into firewall bulkhead? Can a bad wire cause the V at switch the read less than 12.5 v.?? How do I begin to check this???
    Let me re phrase. Is the only time I should get current at ign. switch terminal ign 2 (at brown wire), , when I turn key to start position. I should not find current there in run position (ign.1) Right ...????
    Then I went back and checked for voltage at under hood bulkhead at the brown wire location, ( ign 2 start), when the key is in ign 1 position (run) NO current. When I turn key to start ( ign. 2) I get the same 9.5 v. at bulkhead.
    Sorry if confusing!!!
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2018
  2. Mattax

    Mattax Just the facts, ma'am FABO Gold Member

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    In Start position, there is a direct connection to the brown wire through the ignition switch.
    In Run postion, the connection to the brown wire is through the ballast resistor.
    * When current is flowing through ballast resistor, there will be a voltage drop.
    * With the engine off, I can't think of anything that would draw current through the ballast resistor once the coil is saturated.

    Are you confusing current and voltage? Voltage measurements do not indicate current flowing unless its going through resistance.

    In 'Start', the starter will draw considerable power and the system voltage will noticbly drop. But even so, 9.5 Volts is low. The question is whether the system voltage dropped to 9.5 V during start, or are there voltage drops.

    Lets talk voltage and current for a minute.
    Voltage is the driving force. If everything is off, the voltage is still present in all the wires connected wires. Its like the water pressure in your house. All the pipes have pressure in them, which can be measured. If no water is flowing, the pressure is the same everywhere.

    If there is resistance to flow, it won't show up as a voltage difference with everything off. It only shows up as a voltage drop when current is flowing through the resistance.

    So this
    This tells us there is continuity from the battery to the ignition switch.

    This is a little confusing. If you know what the battery feed (hot black wire) read during those two tests, then you will know if there is resistance in the connector or switch. In Run, Ignition 1 should be at the same voltage as the battery, and ignition 2 should be lower.
    If your Lancer has an ammeter, glance at it. With the engine off, key in Run, there should be just a few amps flowing from the battery.
     
  3. 67Dart273

    67Dart273 Well-Known Member

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    A bit low, but what does the battery measure when cranking? Battery may be low/ under charged
     
  4. 67Dart273

    67Dart273 Well-Known Member

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    Should be whatever battery is when cranking. A good battery should be above 10.5, but seldom as high as 12.5 when cranking
     
  5. 67Dart273

    67Dart273 Well-Known Member

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    You are talking about blue/ run (not the brown/ bypass/ IGN2?) And this is right at the switch? If so that is LOW IF you still show 12.X TO the switch.

    It is important to compare, ..........if the supply TO the switch has a problem, ANY load drawn on the switch (when on) will pull down supply voltage to the switch.

    So measure again, just to be sure..........the voltage TO the switch / key off

    Turn key on and see if that voltage DROPS. It might drop a few tenths, should not be much. If it drops a lot, follow the path from the key back out to the battery............welded splice, ammeter, bulkhead connector...........fuse link etc
     
  6. barbee6043

    barbee6043 barbee 6043

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    I will recheck voltage later this AM, but another thing I failed to mention.
    The new ign. switch is identical to the old one There is a terminal for ground there BUT the connector has no spot for it. I have a FSM and it shows nothing about a ground wire there either. ??????/
     
  7. Mattax

    Mattax Just the facts, ma'am FABO Gold Member

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    Yes. I think I observed that on my '67 as well. As best I can figure, it can be used for another application as well. On our cars, the ignition switch is just a multi-position through switch.
     
  8. barbee6043

    barbee6043 barbee 6043

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    VOLTAGE to the switch, key off is 12.4 then key on, it is 12.2 Just dropped .2 v... The battery is freshly charged and shows 12.5 v with cable off and 12.3 cable on.

    I am back! I checked these values while ago: KEY on, at switch: ( Battery 12.4) Ballast: start side ( brown wire side) 7.0 Run side 11.7 coil + 6.8

    With starting: ballast, start side 9.0 run side 8.5 coil + 8.5

    Checking at switch key on, ign. 1 is 12.2
    :" " " " ign, 2 is 6.5

    in starting mode ign.# 2 is 9.5 but the hot wire to switch is same as battery like 12.2. Same v at firewall hot red an black wires I same as battery also. battery. 12.3

    I have never have this car running. Been on the back burner a while. It has a battery that has never been used about 3 yrs old. I see no problem with it holding a charge. I changed this car over to mopar ECU also.
    With key ON, should I not be getting the same v on both sides of ballast, like 11 or so???? I am only getting about 11.7 and 7 with key on.?? Then when I try to start, the start side of ballast goes from 7 v to 9 v and the run side drops from 11.7 to 8.5

    Starting should I not be getting more lke11.5 or v, at coil + ??? instead of only 8.5 and only 9 at ballast????

    I get the same v at switch as at firewall inside and ballast . If I have 12.3 at switch hot wire and in ign #2 start I read 9 there, does not v not have to be more like 11 ???????
    Can the Moar ECU set up cause any of this?????
     
  9. Mattax

    Mattax Just the facts, ma'am FABO Gold Member

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    So is this correct?
    After installing the Battery cable, the voltage drops from 12.5 to 12.3 V.
    If the 12.5 Volts was read after removing the charger, the drop to 12.3 may simply be surface charge.

    Is this correct?
    Key off. Bat positive = 12.3 V, Hot feed at switch = 12.4 Volts
    Since voltage doesn't go up, lets for now assume accuracy of these measurements will vary a tenth or so.

    Key on. Bat positive = 12.3 V ?, Hot feed at switch = 12.2 Volts
    We may be seeing a drop in voltage due to current flowing to the alternator field and the ignition amplifier.
    Was there any noticible movement on the ammeter when the key was turned to run?
    Are the headlights installed? If so, key off, turn them on and check voltage at battery positive and hot at ignition switch. There will be enough current flowing that if there is resistance between the battery and the main splice, it will show as noticible drop in voltage.

    Is the starter not hooked up?? If it is 67Dart273 gave guidelines on whether its holding a good charge. If it isn't, the load test using the headlights that I just gave will be an indicator.

    No. Yes, and yes. In run, current flows through the resistor to the ignition. Your mopar amplifier is drawing power even though the engine is not running. In Start, the situation reverses.
    Can't comment on the absolute numbers. Need to know the voltage at the battery positive at the exact same time.

    Correct. Starting, the coil should be getting full battery voltage - whatever that is. The same voltage should be at the coil side of the ballast, the firewall connector, ignition switch, etc all the way back to the battery.

    Great.

    It needs to be the same. When looking for resistance it doesn't matter what it was before the key. Turn the key to start and the hot in and the ign 2 out should read the same voltage. The terminal to the starter relay should also read that same voltage. If 9 both sides, then the problem is elsewhere. If its 12 in and less than than on either ign 2 or start, there is a problem.

    Maybe. Unplug it if you think it is. Only thing that should change is the current flowing to ignition with engine off, key on, will be less.
     
  10. Mattax

    Mattax Just the facts, ma'am FABO Gold Member

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    You can download this diagram, and mark up to match your '62.
    You can use MS paint, or any other simple program. Or print and use pencil

    Its based on a '67, but fusible link was removed and the ignition hot is black to match your '62.
    Also the bulkhead connections are shown individually for simplicity.

    Add in the mopar ECU wires wherever you connected them and that should give a pretty complete picture.

    Charging-diagram62L-WIP.png
     
  11. Mattax

    Mattax Just the facts, ma'am FABO Gold Member

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    here's how the diagram can be used.
    At each connection with a red rectangle, the voltage should be the same.
    With ignition off. Voltage at each red rectangle should be battery voltage, and the ammeter should show zero current flow.
    If that's not true, there's a short to ground, or a switch is on.

    Charging-diagram62L-WIP-off.png
     
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    • barbee6043

      barbee6043 barbee 6043

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      Thanks Mattax for those diagrams. I have seen those before, I WILL have the wife download for me and KEEP ON HAND!.

      I did check the switch with key OFF, and turned on just headlights, (New working bulbs !).. The v did drop some 2 or 2 /5 v,.... I forget exactly/ Probably NOT good!!
      I did replace the NEW ballast with a NEW ballast! ha, and ..Don't see any real change. My next thing is to change out the battery for a new one. This one is 4 yrs old I bet, never used, till just recently. Doesn't take long for the v. to start to drop with just turning the engine over.
      I also have to wonder if my connections at the double wires at the ballast are good.
      It will be maybe tomorrow before I can get back to this sucker with a fresh battery.!!
       
    • Mattax

      Mattax Just the facts, ma'am FABO Gold Member

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      Did it drop at the battery terminal?
      If so, try a long slow charge. 2 amps or less if your charger has a selector, or if its automatic, you can let it do its thing overnight.
      If it didn't drop at the battery, then its good enough for the testing you're doing.

      That's what we're trying to find out with the voltage drop tests. So far, that doesn't seem like they are a problem.
       
    • Mattax

      Mattax Just the facts, ma'am FABO Gold Member

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      And if it didn't drop at the battery terminal because it was a very weak battery, here's how to use a diagram to figure out where it is dropping.

      Lets take the situation of ignition off, headlights on, and feed at the ignition switch was 2 Volts less than at battery positive.
      What does this tell us for certain, and what can we reasonably assume about current flow and where there is resistance?

      Charging-diagram62L-WIP-off-H-on.png
      Start with the other connections with red boxes next to them.
      Also notice the ammeter, which on a '62 probably reads 40 damps both ways. What's this one telling us?
       
      Last edited: Oct 12, 2018
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      • Mattax

        Mattax Just the facts, ma'am FABO Gold Member

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        There is no flow from the main junction (fat dot) to the ignition switch, so the voltage at both should be the same.
        There is also no flow between the main junction and the alternator output stud. Therefore voltage in that wire will be the same voltage as the ignition switch connection and the main junction.

        There is current flowing through the ammeter to the lights. This current is represented by orange arrows.
        Headlights draw roughly 9 amps, and the parking lights draw roughly 3 amps. So the ammeter shows 12 amps going from the battery to the main junction.
        It most likely the main splice is solid and for the moment we will assume there ia no resistance to the headlight switch. So the fuse box and headlight feeds are marked -2 Volts as well.
        Charging-diagram62L-WIP-off-H-on-exa.png

        The 2 volts must be getting lost between the Battery and Ignition switch where the current is flowing. So really, that's somewhere between the Battery and the main junction.
        It could be at any of the connections or wires along the way. So check for drop at each of these. Begin at the battery and work from the relay stud (easiest to access) toward the headlight switch (hardest to access). As soon as you find the 2 volt drop, or two 1 volt drops, you've got the culprit(s).

        *this drawing doesn't have little red boxes at the ammeter connections, but voltage can be checked there too, and will have to be if the drops don't show up checking the easier to access locations.

        I'm not saying the headlight connections are good, but all the information you've posted earlier suggests there is a bad connection or wire between the ignition switch an the battery. Using the headlights shows that at least some of the loss is on the shared route from the battery feed. The headlights should draw more current than the ignition which makes it easier to find voltage drops.
         
        Last edited: Oct 12, 2018
      • 4spdragtop

        4spdragtop FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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        Sorry if I missed it, but is this scenario with key off or on?
        Thanks Mattax
         
      • Mattax

        Mattax Just the facts, ma'am FABO Gold Member

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        Its the continuation of the scenario given in the previous post, Key Off, Headlight Switch On.

        That's why there's no flow to the ignition switch. It's a dead end.
         
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        • Mattax

          Mattax Just the facts, ma'am FABO Gold Member

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          @4spdragtop
          Here's two examples of how to look for the bad wiring in this path where the current is flowing. It must be flowing to show resistance.
          Instead of measuring voltage to ground reference, we will use the voltmeter directly to look for drop.
          Red probe to the high voltage point, and black probe to possible lower voltage point.

          Charging-diagram62L-WIP-off-H-on-exa1.png
          We find 2 volts between the battery post and the solenoid stud.
          Therefore there must be excessive resistance between those two locations.
          The problem must be in that cable or its connections.

          Next example:
          We find no voltage between the battery post and solenoid stud. Move on.
          Charging-diagram62L-WIP-off-H-on-exa2.png
          We find also find no voltage between solenoid and firewall side of connector. We can't move on because our leads are too short and we have nothing to make one longer. OK. So here we take a voltage reading to ground and compare it to the Battery positive to ground. We'll call this voltage B. We don't care if its 9 or 12 Volts, as long as its the same. On the other side of the firewall, terminal connection to ground is 0.1 Volts less. Some resistance, but alone not a problem.

          Continue checking for voltage drops all the way down the line to the headlight switch connector.
          Between the ammeter's alternator side stud and the headlight switch's B1 feed, we find nearly 2 Volt drop.
          Therefore there is excessive resistance in the wires or connections between those two points. Probably around the ring terminal and wire that connects to the ammeter but possibly at the main splice.

          (If it was after the main splice we would not see the drop at the ignition switch. With key off, the wire from the main splice to the switch is just like an extension of the voltmeter probe)
           
          Last edited: Oct 13, 2018
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          • 4spdragtop

            4spdragtop FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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            Thank you! As I've mentioned before, I'm a visual learner so you drawing it out helps greatly with my 67 issues. I'll read thru this and try to absorb.
            Thanks again @Mattax! I hit yer thanks button.
             
          • barbee6043

            barbee6043 barbee 6043

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            BACK!!!!! I wish I knew how to show =the diagram with my findings! BT computer is not my best skill! Those diagrams really help me keep up with the voltage. I NEVER bypass the amp gauge but I did on this 62 Lancer last week when I was in the dash, mainly because of the age and wiring, and this early car is a TOTAL BITCH to get in there. Way harder than 63 up cars. I had picked up a new ign switch last week an installed it and a NEW battery. I think the old battery just was not staying up like it should even though I kept it fully charged.
            I did find this: V. under the hood is good , EXCEPT I loose about .5 v from ballast to coil+, BUT I find where the wires connect to ballast no doubt have a problem. I will replace that.
            I do lose .3 v from red hot wire at bulkhed to ign switch. Like 12.6 to 12.3 . The ign switch reads 10.9 in start mode at ign 2 brown wire terminl (ign swithch), and same wire at ballast under the hood will read .5 v lower at 10.2 v. So I lose .5 v at the bulkhead. I have cleaned this with a brass brush several time already.
            With key ON, th v. at ign swithch compared to ballast also drops about .5 v. so no doubt there is a problem there. IF this is too much a drop I can drill thru the firewall and go direct.
            I have the mopar EC hooked up correctly. When I leave the key on doing all this the coil (new) gets pretty warm. I have no spark coming out of coil. The v at coil in start is 9.7v while the reading at ballast during start mode is 10.2 . losing .5 v but I relate that to the poor connection at the ballast.

            all plug wire are new, new coil, IF the dist is bad, I should have fire out of the coil right?? I have 9.7 at coil + during crank, maybe low but should be enough?
            Can a bad dist, and the wire from it to coil be a problem??? Net is change out dist. I have plenty of USED stuff! How good???????
             
          • Mattax

            Mattax Just the facts, ma'am FABO Gold Member

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            Most Microsoft Windows systems came with a program called "Paint".
            Another option is take a digital photo of the paper if you have a digital camara.
            There's probably a way to do it with phone pictures too.

            Is it dropping from 12.6 to 12.3 Volts with the ignition off? headlights off?
            If so, something is on?

            The amount of voltage drop depends both resistance and flow.
            That's why the headlight test is useful.
            Another one is to turn on the heater fan. But current for the heater will flow through the ignition switch. So it will show a poor connection between the main junction and the switch, whereas the headlight test won't.
            Are saying when the key is on, Ign 2 at the switch reads 0.5 Volts higher than at ballast?
            If so, then narrow it down. For example, see if there drop from Ign 2 to the bulkhead connector?

            I wouldn't start drilling holes in the firewall or connectors. Not yet, and not for the ignition wire. Connectors are very handy both for testing and repairs.
            Take the connectors apart and see what the terminals look like. Check the wires and the crimps.

            So far we haven't proven if the battery feed wire has poor connections or wires. Begin there.
            Do it with the lights. The ignition and alternator field should only be drawing a few amps. If there was something wrong where they are drawing more, the ammeter would have shown that.

            On the last part I'm a little lost, are you trying to start the engine? Is the starter turning the engine? Nothing will spark if the distributor isn't turning.

            My advice is one thing at a time. Find the any bad connections on the battery feed first. Also find if there is a leak - maybe some of the accessories added for pace car useage are still on?
             
          • barbee6043

            barbee6043 barbee 6043

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            Basically the hot wire at ign is 12.4 (12.6 at batt,+ and at fireall,) So i Lost .2 v along the way inside the dash wiring at the ign switch. Probably not an issue. I hit start, the ign 2 terminal reads 10.9 v at ign switch, and this same brown ign 2 wire at the ballast in start mode reads 10.2 so I lost .5 v at the firewall.
            I will go to the starter tomorrow and see what it is dong. Check gap again. I should have some fire at coil UNLESS the dist is the problem, I figure. 9.7 v at coil + in start mode should give some fire at coil wire surely.
            Thanks for ll the advice. Tomorrow is another day!!
             
          • 4spdragtop

            4spdragtop FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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            Sorry to hijack here, but to clarify, for the "heater blower fan on" test, the key switch would have to be "on" for the current to flow thru switch?
             
          • Mattax

            Mattax Just the facts, ma'am FABO Gold Member

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            Is this with the switch in run or off?
            Correct!
            If the key was in Accessory, it would be flowing to the key switch, then out the accesory wire to the fuse.
            If the key is in Run position, it would do that in addition to the current flowing to the alternator field and the ignition.
            Lets say
            Heater fan draws 7 amps on high.
            Field draws 2 amps
            Coil draws 1 amp, and if there's an ECU, it draws an amp or 2 as well.
            = Total of 10 to 12 amps.

            Then the flow would look something like this. If there was a bad terminal on the wire from the ammeter, it would still show in the same voltage drop check as in the headlight example. But with heater on, we can also check for drops at and in the keyed switch and its connections.

            As before, all of the red rectangles should have the same voltage as battery positive, if there's no resistance along the flow path.
            The dark rectangle on the other side of the ballast resistor will have lower voltage as long as there is current flowing through the coil (points closed);

            Charging-diagram62L-WIP-off-H-on-exa3.png
             
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            • Mattax

              Mattax Just the facts, ma'am FABO Gold Member

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              And we've already fixed that bad ring terminal we found at the ammeter, then we can go on to look for any poor connections to the ignition switch and beyond knowing that everything to the main junction is good.

              Charging-diagram62L-WIP-off-H-on-exa3.png