Is it ok to copy a W5 head and make it better or are we just mad at Speedmaster

[DionR]

As I said before a good head porter can improve any cnc’d head. When all the hand head porters are gone what are you going to copy then. Lol.

If things go too far, I think they will be out of business before all the hand porters die. Your port might be better but I bet it will never be the cheap option. And based on Speedmaster's success, seems people care more about cheap.

To be clear, I'm not a fan of the option, just pointing out another potential revenue stream for people who don't care who they steal from or what they steal.

 

[rmchrgr]

Probably stating the obvious here but you have to read between the lines sometimes. Regardless of where the castings are made, Speedmaster heads are a less costly initial investment but if you want to get the most out of them you're going to put some time and effort into them which is a different kind of cost. That kind of effort requires 1) experience 2) knowledge 3) time 4) tooling 5) testing equipment 6) real-world time-slip data. I think that idea gets lost in these discussion sometimes. 'Cheap' does not always equal bad but if you take stuff at face value you get what you pay for.

Not everyone has the desire, time or resources to do all that to lower cost parts so they fork over the coin and buy a set of Indys or Victors or whatever and hope for the best. Not many out there are going to give Brett Miller a blank check for a weekend warrior street/strip build but you can't expect the same type of performance from an off-the-shelf parts either. Speed costs money as the saying goes. Again, if you don't have the money for top-shelf stuff then you have to put the effort to get the most out of what you can afford.

There's guys out there that can get factory iron heads into the 9s but they have 100's of hours into them and years of testing.

 

[MILO]

It is just like the Budweiser Light avoidance what comes around goes around

 

[Dale Davies]

A few months ago a well known small block head porter asked if anyone had a W5 head he could play with. Plan are to copy the W5 head and make some improvements. One of our members loaned him one and the project has began. Since I’m sure “Mother Mopar” had a patient on this what are our thoughts on this??? Everyone I’ve heard from has been excited about this deal but listening to so of our members over the last week have me scratching my head. Is it ok for one and not the other???

Making incremental improvements is what got us where we are today. Looking at some product and thinking I could improve this if I just changed x is what builds a new product and probably patent(s). What Speedmaster did was an unashamed and blatant copy, leaving the logo in place. To do R&D to develop and test a new product is expensive. Part of the cost of an Edelbrock Performer RPM Airgap manifold for example. It takes very little to aquire a manifold and reverse engineer (copy) it and sell it at 1/2 to 1/3 the cost. Yes it hurts the wallet to buy original, but you are supporting your neighbors.
I am very happy to hear both Summit and Jegs have removed all Speedmaster product from their inventories.

 

[crazy 340]

i dont think that will be bad making a new heads from the w5

there arent as much headson the market from my opinion

edelbrock

brodix

trick flow

indy

the chinese stuff

so where is the ton of heads from the market available at a fair price for the small block mopar

yes new R and X block will be fun to have at the exception of kent ritter there is any

the few ma mopar made long time ago are so expensive

so what’s left , OE block that we push there limit and hope they last !!! i know î’m there pushing mine to 650 hp with the too expensive indy heads


to my idea if they can make a new head from the W5 and making them better and stronger go for it !!!

 

[Dale Davies]

I personally don’t have a problem with China, or any other country manufacturing and selling products in the United States, as long as they don’t identify as the original manufacturer.

Look at Engine Quest for example selling Magnum heads.
They are very close to the original Magnum head, but they don’t advertise as or say anything about Chrysler on them.

I’m not pissed at China on the subject of the trans brake valve bodies, as I know how China rolls, and I know that Speed Master sells cheap junk copies.
As a buyer I can decide if I want to give my money to a possibly inferior copy.
Some copies are great products.

But as an example, if I went down to the gun store and bought a Smith and Wesson and it had Smith and Wesson name and logo on it I’d be pissed at the gun store if it was a Chinese copy.

Hence, F Speed Master.

My problem with Chinesium **** is it comes from a pretty much unfriendly adversary country. These companies are affiliated with the CCP guvment, so their profits prop up and aid Xi Wanshortdong and his aspirations to take the US of A down.
If you want to set up a business in China you put up the capital but require a China born partner. This partner will undoubtedly be a member of the CCP or PLA. Said partner retains 51% ownership of "your" company. So why do the US and Canada allow Chinese interests to purchase resource companies, leases for resource development, farm land and large profitable corporations. They tend not to employ western citizens, but send Chinese to work.
Poor countries in Africa have signed contracts to get say port dredging and dock infrastructure improvements done. This was anticipating that their poor as dirt citizens would be hired, earn wages, gain experience and pay taxes. Nope. The Chinese company brought their employees and supplied accomodations with meals. Virtually no money came back to these poor countries. Some have been talked into a rail line that goes to nowhere, and sold as to tie into the belt and road initiative. As with the port work, if the country can not pay, part of the contract states that the Chinese company or basically China gains control of the port or rail for something like 100 years to pay the debt. LOAN SHARK ****!!
Thus I am an avoid Chinesium crap as much as possible.
Try to purchase socks that are not made in China. 3 months later there is all of a sudden a 1" hole in the heel and they are a stinker to darn if you can figure out how to. Rebok, Nike and Adidas running shoes that had been Made in the USA could last 7 years of daily running. The replacements when they finally worn out are made in China and are shot every year. So the consumer is paying 6× for Chinese crap. My only explanation for the situation is that clothing is all made out of recycled Yak turds!
Enough of the bullshit out of China!!

 

[Dale Davies]

The Speedmaster heads aren't a bad piece. @pittsburghracer has done a few. Were they bare castings? The castings are good, the parts not bad as well as the machining. It sounds like they are pretty close to the Edelbrock's. If you are reproducing W2's all you want are castings anyway. Most racers building a W2 small block will want their own valves, springs and components anyway.

When you purchase Chinesium Yak turds ****, you are selling your soul to the communist Chinese guvment. Choose your poison wisely. As for me, I try to avoid that.
Look at Europe and how dependant they were on fuhrer shorty the shirtless for gas to heat their homes. Since they figured out they can not negotiate with tsar bedpan they have been backing off reliance on pootlerstan. Still a bit slow learners though, IMHO.

 

[Dale Davies]

I'm thinking ya just go to the Chinese E bay(Ali Baba or TEMU) and order em up, who needs Summit or Jegs...?

Communist!

 

[pittsburghracer]

How will you guys feel if these W5 heads are cast in another country.

 

[Dale Davies]

How will you guys feel if these W5 heads are cast in another country.

Cast where ever. Once the war will pootlerstan is over I would pick Ukraine, an ally country. Machine in America.

 

[toolmanmike]

How will you guys feel if these W5 heads are cast in another country.

As long as the castings are good. Which heads were cast in Australia? The Poly guys had some 4 barrel intakes cast in Mexico here a few years back. They worked and even though they were pricy, sold like hotcakes.

 

[Killer6]

As long as the castings are good. Which heads were cast in Australia? The Poly guys had some 4 barrel intakes cast in Mexico here a few years back. They worked and even though they were pricy, sold like hotcakes. View attachment 1716242428

The original run of those were done by The Foundry Works IIRC, curious if that was a 2nd , or 3rd run done in Mexico.

 

[Demonic]

A friend of mine reached out to someone about the Poly intakes recently, it looks like there's a pause - or worse - in the Poly intake production.

https://cpwebstore.com/Poly

The other big issue is demand for a lot of this stuff. Every year there's another A body too far rusted to turn into a race car, let alone restore. This hobby isn't getting any younger. It's hard for domestic companies to do a small foundry run and have the product affordable.

 

[toolmanmike]

A friend of mine reached out to someone about the Poly intakes recently, it looks like there's a pause - or worse - in the Poly intake production.

https://cpwebstore.com/Poly

The other big issue is demand for a lot of this stuff. Every year there's another A body too far rusted to turn into a race car, let alone restore. This hobby isn't getting any younger. It's hard for domestic companies to do a small foundry run and have the product affordable.

Poly cars aren't too popular. I have been looking out for a nice 64 and a Poly would be fine. So many guys are doing the Max Wedge thing or at least a 440. Not needed in my book for the cruising I do.

 

[HSDemon]

I don't care if anyone copies a W5 head or where they make it. As long as they make a good product I would buy it. It would be really nice if they made the head in the USA, but if they did it would end up being quite expensive, which would be fine except for the fact that if it starts selling the China man will make a copy of it and cut the price by 40% and it will really suck for the people that spent all the time and money to develop it. You can't put a patent on the old W5 head, but I would look at any and all changes I can make to the design so that I can make up any and all arguments to the patent office on why my new design head deserves a patent. If you can secure a patent on the design you should be good to go on making the head in the USA and making the investment. I have quite a bit of patents to my name and one thing I can tell you is that the patent office does not verify your claims, so if you claim that your new raised intake port with smaller valve combustion chamber helps you burn fuel better and no one has raised this claim before, well you have just been awarded a patent. That is basically what GM claimed on the patent of the GM Performance Parts heads "fast burn" combustion chamber, and guess what? No one copied that head while the patent was active. Did the heads do what GM claimed, maybe and maybe not, but it does not really matter as it stopped anyone else from copying the design for 20 years.

 

[DionR]

I think places in the US that sell copycat parts that violate patents should be able to be sued as if they stole the patents themselves. Can’t sue someone in another country, but doesn’t mean the parts should be able to be sold somewhere that they violate the patent.

 

[HSDemon]

I think places in the US that sell copycat parts that violate patents should be able to be sued as if they stole the patents themselves. Can’t sue someone in another country, but doesn’t mean the parts should be able to be sold somewhere that they violate the patent.

Believe me if you have a valid active patent in the USA and someone copies it and sells it in the USA they are 100% getting sued. I have been up and down the patent and trademark infringement road many times before. I have been in the performance automotive aftermarket all my life. I have been manufacturing parts overseas for over 20 years and I can assure you that no one in their right mind screws around with that. I learned to patent and trademark anything that I could so that it does not get copied, and it has worked very well. You can never stop the guys in China Town selling fake Rolexes or some of the fake counterfeit stuff on eBay or Amazon as there is so much money to be made there and little to no consequences, but on the automotive aftermarket it is pretty rare especially on the big name resellers like Summit or Jegs. The main issue with counterfeits is China sellers on eBay/Amazon that just pop up one day and start selling counterfeits, or they flood the Amazon warehouses with counterfeits, and when they are caught they just open another store. Counterfeits are like printing money, but with much less consequences especially if you are not in the USA.

 

[DionR]

Believe me if you have a valid active patent in the USA and someone copies it and sells it in the USA they are 100% getting sued. I have been up and down the patent and trademark infringement road many times before. I have been in the performance automotive aftermarket all my life. I have been manufacturing parts overseas for over 20 years and I can assure you that no one in their right mind screws around with that. I learned to patent and trademark anything that I could so that it does not get copied, and it has worked very well. You can never stop the guys in China Town selling fake Rolexes or some of the fake counterfeit stuff on eBay or Amazon as there is so much money to be made there and little to no consequences, but on the automotive aftermarket it is pretty rare especially on the big name resellers like Summit or Jegs. The main issue with counterfeits is China sellers on eBay/Amazon that just pop up one day and start selling counterfeits, or they flood the Amazon warehouses with counterfeits, and when they are caught they just open another store. Counterfeits are like printing money, but with much less consequences especially if you are not in the USA.

I wonder if that is why Summit (and now Jegs?) is pulling Speedmaster products. Before they could turn a blind eye, but Speedmaster crossed a line.

 

[HSDemon]

I wonder if that is why Summit (and now Jegs?) is pulling Speedmaster products. Before they could turn a blind eye, but Speedmaster crossed a line.

The issue was not that Speedmaster copied the Broader transbrake, the issue is that the used the Broader Performance trademark on it, and not only is Speedmaster legally liable for trademark infringement but all their dealers are also liable. Summit and Jegs removed the product from their shelves to try and immunize themselves from and litigation. They basically told the world "we had no idea we were selling a counterfeit product, and as soon as we knew we removed the product from our site, destroyed the product, and removed the complete product line from our shelves". That way, if there is any litigation, they can claim that they knew nothing about it and they can place all the blame squarely on Speedmaster.

 

[A body]

Double edged sword for sure…. Having owned 2 sets of W5 heads I can’t get overly excited about your “made in USA” product superiority. I “get” the whole buy local deal and wished we certainly were more able to buy stuff made here, but when your local stuff is crap it’s easy to look elsewhere. Think it was the late Mr Pbody that shared stories of pallets of unusable castings when he was at Ma mopar.
It’s my opinion that China is fully capable of producing good products. Pretty much depends on the expectations involved from their buyer. Kind of like radiators at work. Mopar radiators “FIT”. I’m sure they’re probably made in China, but yet to order a radiator from Autozone or even car quest it always seems to present issues with mounting points. Hose ends undersize….
Kind of like Molnar crankshafts. The cores are made overseas, but they must have found a foundry that takes enough care to provide a good casting for them as you don’t often hear of failures and there are some pretty high hp builds utilizing them.

and anything Brett gets from a W5 head will be vastly improved upon I’m sure. He’s owned them and has lived with their shortfalls.

 

[Killer6]

Double edged sword for sure…. Having owned 2 sets of W5 heads I can’t get overly excited about your “made in USA” product superiority. I “get” the whole buy local deal and wished we certainly were more able to buy stuff made here, but when your local stuff is crap it’s easy to look elsewhere. Think it was the late Mr Pbody that shared stories of pallets of unusable castings when he was at Ma mopar.
It’s my opinion that China is fully capable of producing good products. Pretty much depends on the expectations involved from their buyer. Kind of like radiators at work. Mopar radiators “FIT”. I’m sure they’re probably made in China, but yet to order a radiator from Autozone or even car quest it always seems to present issues with mounting points. Hose ends undersize….
Kind of like Molnar crankshafts. The cores are made overseas, but they must have found a foundry that takes enough care to provide a good casting for them as you don’t often hear of failures and there are some pretty high hp builds utilizing them.

and anything Brett gets from a W5 head will be vastly improved upon I’m sure. He’s owned them and has lived with their shortfalls. I’m also certain he’ll fight tooth and nail to have them casted here too.

I thought a bunch of those were Mexican cast sprinklers, either way, they ain't made them in a long time. Fair game as far as I'm concerned, quality and function come 1st, no matter where they come from AFAIC.

 

[HSDemon]

Double edged sword for sure…. Having owned 2 sets of W5 heads I can’t get overly excited about your “made in USA” product superiority. I “get” the whole buy local deal and wished we certainly were more able to buy stuff made here, but when your local stuff is crap it’s easy to look elsewhere. Think it was the late Mr Pbody that shared stories of pallets of unusable castings when he was at Ma mopar.
It’s my opinion that China is fully capable of producing good products. Pretty much depends on the expectations involved from their buyer. Kind of like radiators at work. Mopar radiators “FIT”. I’m sure they’re probably made in China, but yet to order a radiator from Autozone or even car quest it always seems to present issues with mounting points. Hose ends undersize….
Kind of like Molnar crankshafts. The cores are made overseas, but they must have found a foundry that takes enough care to provide a good casting for them as you don’t often hear of failures and there are some pretty high hp builds utilizing them.

and anything Brett gets from a W5 head will be vastly improved upon I’m sure. He’s owned them and has lived with their shortfalls. I’m also certain he’ll fight tooth and nail to have them casted here too.

China can 100% make good product. It all depends on the factory that you choose and how much you are willing to pay for the product. Better factory better quality = more expensive, poorer factory poorer quality = less expensive. The biggest issue in China a lot of the times is not the factory itself but the quality control they gave which is usually not the best. The Chinese expect a small percentage of the product they produce to be defective, and that to them is acceptable. To us here it is really not acceptable. That is why you have so many US companies buying raw product in China and finishing it here, these companies tend to have the best reputation in the USA.

 

[Dale Davies]

China can 100% make good product. It all depends on the factory that you choose and how much you are willing to pay for the product. Better factory better quality = more expensive, poorer factory poorer quality = less expensive. The biggest issue in China a lot of the times is not the factory itself but the quality control they gave which is usually not the best. The Chinese expect a small percentage of the product they produce to be defective, and that to them is acceptable. To us here it is really not acceptable. That is why you have so many US companies buying raw product in China and finishing it here, these companies tend to have the best reputation in the USA.

Chinese companies will produce to the quality standard you demand or allow.