Is this engine builder nuts?

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$5500 in the car ! That is a deal-just chuck the 318
Get a 360 block and Cast 408 stroker kit and some indy x heads
you will be a lot happier
 
Roller cams are a winner no matter what. look at the valve-open time compared to flat tappet.

HP costs cubic dollars. You'd save a lot building it yourself...
 
For $5500 you can build a nice 360 and have more HP and torque.
 
Lots of good advice and I've got some thinking to do.
 
Peyote said:
That's kind of what I was thinking. But if it comes down to it, I'll probably choose less hp over more money.

Another thing he said that threw me off was, "I'd recommend 4.10 gears, especially in a car that heavy. If you've got 320 hp and a 2200 torque converter, it could feel like a dog when you're just cruising around."

This car will see some highway miles and I don't want to be doing 3500 rpm at 65 or something.
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A 350 hp 318 with 4.10 has the same accelerating power as a 350 hp 360 with 3.23, it takes gears to make a little engine work.
 
cubic inches gets you good torque earlier. 4.10s are to compensate for a motor that probably won't have the bottom end to make 3.23s fun to drive. Especially driving in Austin and all of that traffic everywhere.

360 would be a very wise choice, as easier to get the HP goal, and better driveability than the 318.
 
Sorry if I missed it Peyote,but exactly how heavy is this "a car that heavy"?
And for the output, the big bump from rollers is better low end for the power gained,so
if the correct torque converter was selected it should never be a dog.Your 3.73's are
fine unless you're running 32" tires!!
 
Killer6 said:
Sorry if I missed it Peyote,but exactly how heavy is this "a car that heavy"?
And for the output, the big bump from rollers is better low end for the power gained,so
if the correct torque converter was selected it should never be a dog.Your 3.73's are
fine unless you're running 32" tires!!
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A generous estimate I think would be 3300lbs. 66 dart with a/c.

Maybe I'll just say screw it and have him give me a long block and heads, and do the rest of the work myself. I just have a hard time justifying $5500 for 300-320hp, and I worry a 375hp 360 motor is more than I need, and again at $5500
 
Peyote
I think you are missing the point. the 375 hp engine will likely have more usable torque from 2000 up, than the 320 hp might have at 3000.And if you de-cam that 360 to the same 320 hp, it will have gobs more torque than the 320 teener.
That's why I said; torque is what a streeter ought to concentrate on, and let the hp fall where it may.
The 360 is about 13% bigger than a teener. And when built to a similar hp level, will have more than that 13% torque,and will have an especially strong bottom end. That torque at take off, is worth an easy 2 rear gear sizes, and probably closer to 3 sizes, or 1000rpm of stall, or some combination of gear and stall . For the 360 to equal the giddy-up of a teener with 3.73s,it might only need 3.23s, (or 3.55s at most). That is one of the reasons that 3.55s are so popular with street 360s.
But if you already have the 3.73s installed, then I can see the attraction of a pipey teener. But if this;"Once a week drive to work, a cruise on the weekend occasionally and down the strip once or twice ", is your usage,I fail to see spending a lot of coin on it, for just a little giddy-up.
You don't by any chance still have the stock TC in it, with its approximate 1600/1800 stall rpm, do you? If yes, that could be your problem right there.
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It would seem to me that your early-A would be considerably lighter than 3300#. The 70 Swinger340 I had was 3200#; No A/C, but with P/S,P/B, and a 4spd. I think yours might be more likely to weigh 2800ish. I tell you what tho, at 8.5 pounds per horsepower a car, any car, is plenty quick.At 15/1 they're a little doggy and need gears to giddy-up. At 10 to 12 they can still be a ton-O-fun, if well tuned, and well combo'ed .
So that would indicate, say you and your car weigh in at 3000#. Then 300 to 250, is in the ballpark, and would leave you a generous amount of torque to get off the line.If well-tuned, and well combo'ed.
All figures are JMO and your results may vary. Sheesh am I a jerk.
 
AJ/FormS said:
If you need 350 hp there's easier, possibly, cheaper ways to get it.

But if you just want a snappy teener, for a streeter, I'd have to say; adjust your expectations. 275 crank horsepower in a lightweight A-body can be a ton-O-fun! This is just a lil cam, a small 4bbl, and a free-flowing exhaust, with headers.A little head work, and it can be a lil more funner. For a street-teener, IMO a guy needs to concentrate on torque, and let the power fall where it may.And here's why. Most street fooling around is done in 2nd gear, and 30/35 mph. well then your engine is doing (with 3.55s) about 2100/2200. If you don't have torque there, don't even bother. But let's say you have a shift-kit in your 904, and it kicks down in a heartbeat. Then in 1st it will be spinning at 3600ish. Now you are getting somewhere. A 340 type cam, or a little smaller, will make good torque at this rpm, but a cam big enough to make 350hp in your teener, is still nearly 1000 rpm from it's torque peak, and probably not yet making as a much as a cam of 2, or possibly 3, sizes smaller.So instead of shopping for 350 hp (which in a teener will take quite a bit of rpm, and therfore a comparatively long duration cam), you should be considering to build an engine to maximize torque just where you need/want it.
If you select a rear gear first, and figure the tranny powerband out, and decide just when/where you want the torque to be, this makes picking the cam much easier.A little head work to maximize the upper Rs, and possibly extend the Powerband a bit, and maybe a lil TC to get you out of the hole, and it's done. Now don't go wanting to make any big changes. Just drive it and enjoy it!
Don't forget; if you match your powerband to your tranny,and optimize the combo, you will get the most out of it that she is able to give.A big cammed engine will want a looser TC and bigger gears. Mo-money.
The only thing worse than a big-cammed, lil-engine, stuck in your A,with a lo-stall TC, and hi-way gears, would be to drop it into a big heavy car.
Ok, end of rambling.....
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Did gravy AJ I tried reading this 3 times and both times I gave up about three sentences into it lol I'll try again
 
AJ/FormS said:
Peyote
I think you are missing the point. the 375 hp engine will likely have more usable torque from 2000 up, than the 320 hp might have at 3000.And if you de-cam that 360 to the same 320 hp, it will have gobs more torque than the 320 teener.
That's why I said; torque is what a streeter ought to concentrate on, and let the hp fall where it may.
The 360 is about 13% bigger than a teener. And when built to a similar hp level, will have more than that 13% torque,and will have an especially strong bottom end. That torque at take off, is worth an easy 2 rear gear sizes, and probably closer to 3 sizes, or 1000rpm of stall, or some combination of gear and stall . For the 360 to equal the giddy-up of a teener with 3.73s,it might only need 3.23s, (or 3.55s at most). That is one of the reasons that 3.55s are so popular with street 360s.
But if you already have the 3.73s installed, then I can see the attraction of a pipey teener. But if this;"Once a week drive to work, a cruise on the weekend occasionally and down the strip once or twice ", is your usage,I fail to see spending a lot of coin on it, for just a little giddy-up.
You don't by any chance still have the stock TC in it, with its approximate 1600/1800 stall rpm, do you?
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No I don't have the tc....its a hard sell for me on a 360 since I already have the 318 and its torn down and ready to go to be prepped. I think what's best for me is use the plan I've mentioned in other threads: higher compression Pistons, the 273 heads I already own with porting and bigger valves, with a roller valve train, and let the hp fall where it may.

Wouldn't a taller intake increase torque? What kind of clearance do us a bodies have to fit one?
 
I would not spend a dime on 273 heads, for the $ you spend the return is not there. After machine work and paying someone to port them and buying hardware, You would be farther ahead with a set of the new RHS or similar heads. Already has big valves, closed chamber and will flow more unported than any ported 273 head with bigger valves. Nothing wrong with a 318 to build up, just that it costs the same to build a 360 and in the end you get more hp and torque for the same $.
 
A 66 Dart might weigh 3,000 pounds, probably less. You don't need to port 273 heads, just clean up the bowls and get a good valve job, get some good pistons, bore and hone with torque plates, a cam in the 268 advertised duration and don't look back. Use a Q'jet, T'Quad, or AVS. Tune, Tune, Tune. You do not have room for big enough rear tires anyway, 273 or 318 let alone a 360.
 
The 318 in my '65 Fish is absolutely a blast to drive! I currently have 2:93's (peg leg) and it will boil the tire!!

I'm thinkin' what will the car "feel" like when I upgrade to the 3:55 axle & put a sure grip in there...:cheers:
 
I know someone who put a stoker in an early A and he felt it ruined the car for him. Just too much torque and HP. No strong relationship that I can think of between intake height and torque; it is typically more about runner sizes. But that is somewhat variable, and the cam and heads really set the main breathing parameters anyway.

You're kinda stuck like with a 273 but to a much lesser degree. I guess if the $$ are an important consideration, then look carefully at your head options for breathing, and keep the CR up on a basic 318 bottom end or 360 if you could sell the 318 parts and find an inexpensive 360 shot block. I would spend $$ on good heads before a roller cam if I had limited $$; a roller cam won't cure poor flowing heads. That all is based simply upon may own experience with good flowing heads, combined with a torque cam, and the results. Good valve work will help you down at the low end.

I'd put the extra $$ into some RHS or Edelbrock headss, even if is was $500-750 more than porting stock heads, because with good heads, you can always pull them off and put them on a 360 or stroked block later. They will always be there for you to get good performance out of them.

Looking over the above, it is still well up into the $3000 range, if you do a lot of the top end yourself. If that is not going to cut it, then..... hmmm. Find a deal on some iron heads and get some decent valve work (multi angle job).
 
^^What he said.
Except I can't speak to a stroker in an early A. I can only imagine that, as the 360 in my S has PLENTY enough torque to roast 295s to well past the legal speed limit.
But you just gotta get the pistons close to Zero deck. Real close.Even more important with aluminum heads.

And that stock TC has got to go!
 
I did a 318 build a few years ago that consisted of a shortblock refresh (factory cast pistons), [email protected] duration HFT cam, ported (by me) 318 heads, aluminum intake, 600 Holley DP, headers and recurved ignition. Coupled that to a 904/2500 stall and 3.91 SG 8.25 rearend in a '75 Dart Sport. I had hardly any money in that combination and it could have easily passed as a 340 for as good as it ran. I could have put a cheap 100 horse NOS kit if I needed more. The point is you don't need "350 horsepower" to have a fun car. Either build a 360 or build a budget 318 and have fun. Going custom forged pistons and a roller cam is a waste of money for a 318 IMO. For everything the machinist quoted, and him building the motor, his price seemed fair to me.
 
Peyote said:
Maybe I'm missing something here. I have planned in finding an engine builder to at least get my 318 into a rowdy long block. I found a company near my work that builds engines, mostly ford, but some mopar too. After talking to him for an hour his thoughts were:

To get 350hp from a 318 you need 10:1 cr. He's also pushing for a roller cam and roller rockers. I'm unsure of what Pistons he had in mind. We also discussed porting and polishing my 273 920 casting heads. He claims with a cr of 9.5:1 and the valve train work I'll be about 320 hp.

Does this sound right? I guess I was under the impression it took less to get hp from a 318.

He's also saying for $5500 he will do all the needed block and head work, source the valve train parts, intake, water pump, and pistons, balance the assembly, and install the engine in the car to see it run. I'm still coming to terms with the price, I can't figure out if it's a decent deal or not. ThoughtS?
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My thoughts: buy a Magnum 360, swap cam, convert to carb. You might have $1500 in the whole deal.
 
I get tired of always reading the get rid of the teen, and get a 360 replies on these threads. However this one is not the case. IMO the OP is looking for an unreasonable amount of power for a low buck build. I have a teen, and a 360 sitting in my shop. I plan on building both, but to keep a stock stroke motor, and look for 350 HP, I'd go with the 360. What research I have done, reading threads on here, and talking to my engine builder buddy, getting close to 1 HP per cubic inch is not all that hard, and not all that expensive. Going over that can run into major $$'s. Build a teen if that's what you want, but be realistic on expectations for $'s spent.
 
If you want to make it a little cheaper just get a 5.2L Magnum. Stick a cam, timing cover, intake, and carb on it and you'll be close to the 1hp/inch, with a roller cam.
Honestly the price is more than reasonable, and the guy sounds like he knows his mopars. $5500 installed? I can't believe you're even considering not using him.
 
moper said:
If you want to make it a little cheaper just get a 5.2L Magnum. Stick a cam, timing cover, intake, and carb on it and you'll be close to the 1hp/inch, with a roller cam.
Honestly the price is more than reasonable, and the guy sounds like he knows his mopars. $5500 installed? I can't believe you're even considering not using him.
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This may come as a surprise to you, but this is the first time I've gotten a quote from an engine builder. I have no clue what's reasonable and what's not. Kinda why I came here.
 
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