Issues Bleeding 70 dart with Kelsey Hayes brakes

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snowmobiler7c

snowmobiler7c

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Like the title states im having trouble bleeding the brakes on my 70 swinger. I originally had drum/drum and swapped to the Kelsey hayes setup off a 69. My calipers are new, all new brake lines, new distribution block and proportioning valve from inline tube and brand new raybestos master cylinder everyone seems to love for these cars. I originally had the standard master cylinder and had weak pressure to the fronts and swapped to the raybestos and easy bleeders for the front.

I bench bled the master cylinder and installed to the car. Pushed pedal a couple times and went to bleed the rear brakes. No pressure at all to either rear. I pulled out the 70 service manual and it states to bleed front disc first then move to RR and then LR. So I tries that. I have great pressure to the front calipers steady strong stream of fluid. Still nothing to the rear. I disconnected joint at distribution block and have fluid coming out of the line. Disconnected line between distribution block and proportioning valve and no fluid. I have come to the conclusion the distribution block is not performing correctly. Is there a way to reset the distribution block? Confused where to go from here. I have never had problems bleeding brakes before.
 
Do some more of your own research on the Mopar forums and you will find out that a lot of those reproduction proportioning valves are nothing but a piece of crap, and defective, right out of the box.
Not saying yours is bad or not, but it's a crap shoot if your going to get one, that works or not.
It's just a roll of the dice, if you get a good one, or one that's no good.
Lots of folks just put on a known good used one, or buy a rebuild kit for their old one.
Well, anyway, good luck with your problem child.
My 2 cents worth on the subject.
 
Sounds like the proportioning valve is bad. Try putting the old one back on. Was it working before the change? I have had a couple old Mopars where the flexible rear brake line became plugged. It goes from the single rear brake line , to the splitter mounted on the rear axle. Then the 2 steel lines go to the wheel cylinders. After 40 years of sitting in brake fluid the rubber hose swells shut.
 
Maybe let the rears gravity bleed for awhile, and then maybe use a hand held vacuum pump at the rear bleeders.
 
snowmobiler7c said:
Disconnected line between distribution block and proportioning valve and no fluid. I have come to the conclusion the distribution block is not performing correctly. Is there a way to reset the distribution block?
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I'm assuming this is the combined distribution block with proportioning valve built in. Sounds like there a blockage in the rear portion which includes the proportioning valve. It should flow freely until 500 psi is applied to the line, only then should it reduce the increase in pressure to the rear.
1970 Chrysler Imperial Hydraulic Brake Service Guide from the Master Technicians Service Conference Session 274
 
Mattax said:
I'm assuming this is the combined distribution block with proportioning valve built in. Sounds like there a blockage in the rear portion which includes the proportioning valve. It should flow freely until 500 psi is applied to the line, only then should it reduce the increase in pressure to the rear.
1970 Chrysler Imperial Hydraulic Brake Service Guide from the Master Technicians Service Conference Session 274
Click to expand...

I could be wrong but from the research I did, the 68-72 disc cars were suppose to have a distribution block and a proportioning valve. So this is exactly what I bought 1968-72 Mopar A, B, E Body 1968-70 AMC, AMX Javelin, Rear Hold Off Valve Disc Brakes and 1969-1974 Mopar A-Body Distribution Block Disc Or Drum Brakes

Inline tube lists it as distribution block and a rear hold off valve for disc brake cars(which I believe is the proportioning valve. I will call inline tube tomorrow but I'm guessing the one I bought is a combination valve but when purchasing the gentleman told me the 70 cars took both. Everything is brand new so I cant see how there could be a blockage unless the valve itself is defective?? I couldn't find anything at all online about resetting the valve. I actually purchased a distribution block/or combination valve off a 69 that I could rebuild but purchased new thinking that was a better option. Is there any way to confirm one is a distribution block vs combination valve? Like hemi71X said maybe I made a mistake buying the repop.
 
Garys72Duster said:
Sounds like the proportioning valve is bad. Try putting the old one back on. Was it working before the change? I have had a couple old Mopars where the flexible rear brake line became plugged. It goes from the single rear brake line , to the splitter mounted on the rear axle. Then the 2 steel lines go to the wheel cylinders. After 40 years of sitting in brake fluid the rubber hose swells shut.
Click to expand...

Thanks my original one was drum/drum setup. My rear flexible line is new, and when unscrewing my new steel lines outgoing from the main distribution block I have no pressure to the rear so its definitely stopping there.
 
snowmobiler7c said:
I could be wrong but from the research I did, the 68-72 disc cars were suppose to have a distribution block and a proportioning valve. So this is exactly what I bought 1968-72 Mopar A, B, E Body 1968-70 AMC, AMX Javelin, Rear Hold Off Valve Disc Brakes and 1969-1974 Mopar A-Body Distribution Block Disc Or Drum Brakes
Click to expand...
That's why it always best to go to the original documents. As it says right here, Jan 1, 1970 was the change date.
1970 Chrysler Imperial Hydraulic Brake Service Guide from the Master Technicians Service Conference Session 274

snowmobiler7c said:
Inline tube lists it as distribution block and a rear hold off valve for disc brake cars(which I believe is the proportioning valve. I will call inline tube tomorrow but I'm guessing the one I bought is a combination valve but when purchasing the gentleman told me the 70 cars took both. Everything is brand new so I cant see how there could be a blockage unless the valve itself is defective?? I couldn't find anything at all online about resetting the valve. I actually purchased a distribution block/or combination valve off a 69 that I could rebuild but purchased new thinking that was a better option. Is there any way to confirm one is a distribution block vs combination valve? Like hemi71X said maybe I made a mistake buying the repop.
Click to expand...
A 1970 model year with dsik brakes could have had either. If built in 1969 it would have had a safety switch distribution block and proportioning valve, and if built in 1970, it would have had a combination valve.

A-bodies did not get metering valves, aka hold off valve. A metering valve holds off the initial pressure to the front brakes to reduce the chance of front lock-up on icey roads. A proportioning valve reduced the increase in pressure to the rear under hard braking. This is used with most disk/drum systems to reduce the chance of rear lock up under hard braking.

Whether you use a combo valve or a safety valve with seperate prop valve doesn't really matter as far as performance goes.
 
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I doubt you got a combo valve with metering. And even if you did have one of those, it wouldn't explain the problem you describe. The rear line should flow freely until system pressure (inlet side) gets to over 300 psi.
 
snowmobiler7c said:
I could be wrong but from the research I did, the 68-72 disc cars were suppose to have a distribution block and a proportioning valve. So this is exactly what I bought 1968-72 Mopar A, B, E Body 1968-70 AMC, AMX Javelin, Rear Hold Off Valve Disc Brakes and 1969-1974 Mopar A-Body Distribution Block Disc Or Drum Brakes
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If thats what you bought, it looks like you bought a safety switch/dist block, not a combo valve.

So if the new safety switch/block you bought isn't letting brake fluid through to the rear brakes, just reinstall the old one and use the seperate proportioning valve that Inline Tube wrongly calls a hold off valve. That texas shaped valve is a prop valve.

If the block is working, and the prop valve isn't, then yes return it. Or I guess you could try a rebuild kit.

But if you bought a combo valve, and its working and its the texas shaped prop valve that's not passing brake fluid, then toss it. No. Actually return it, and tell 'em to send you a new rear brake line since yours will now be too short. Alternatively, go to your local autoparts store and buy a short one and a coupler fitting. If its a little too long you can gently shape a stress relief bend into it so it will fit.
 
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Mattax said:
If thats what you bought, it looks like you bought a safety switch/dist block, not a combo valve.

So if the new safety switch/block you bought isn't letting brake fluid through to the rear brakes, just reinstall the old one and use the seperate proportioning valve that Inline Tube wrongly calls a hold off valve. That texas shaped valve is a prop valve.

If the block is working, and the prop valve isn't, then yes return it. Or I guess you could try a rebuild kit.

But if you bought a combo valve, and its working and its the texas shaped prop valve that's not passing brake fluid, then toss it. No. Actually return it, and tell 'em to send you a new rear brake line since yours will now be too short. Alternatively, go to your local autoparts store and buy a short one and a coupler fitting. If its a little too long you can gently shape a stress relief bend into it so it will fit.
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Exactly the safety switch block isn't allowing fluid through. I purchased it several years ago when rounding up parts for my build and just finally installed it. And yes I do have the Texas shaped valve also but cant get fluid that far lol. Ill call inline tube tomorrow they have my name on file so I'm sure they can see when it was purchased. Hopefully for $90 they will still work with me. If not I'm defiantly not buying another one from them. I do have one that was suppose to be factory off a 69 disc car I could rebuild. But if I am understanding correctly your saying I can use the standard drum/drum distribution block that came on my 70 with the Texas (proportioning valve) and have no issues?
 
Yes. And they generally don't go bad. The only thing mechanical in them is the switch.
Disc/Drum and drum/drum were the same block for '67 through '69 (and '70 until Jan 1 1970 production date).
You don't have to believe some guy posting on the internet.
laugh2-gif.gif

You can read the Chrysler tech material I linked to above and decide yourself. :)
If its hard to read, there's a link larger printable versions at the bottom of each page.

You can also see some taken apart on this guy's website.
Muscle Car Research LLC
 
Depending on your tire sizes and rear wheel cylinder sizes. you may not need any proportioning at all.
With 235s up front and 275s in the back, I swapped to 7/8" w/cs in the 10" rear drums, and use no proportioning at all. Works great. With 295s I'm sure I could go back to 15/16.And I would try it if I wasn't so lazy, nowadays. Best stopping car I've ever had.
 
AJ/FormS said:
Depending on your tire sizes and rear wheel cylinder sizes. you may not need any proportioning at all.
With 235s up front and 275s in the back, I swapped to 7/8" w/cs in the 10" rear drums, and use no proportioning at all. Works great. With 295s I'm sure I could go back to 15/16.And I would try it if I wasn't so lazy, nowadays. Best stopping car I've ever had.
Click to expand...
Well for most situations, that's not true. So I don't think its good to encourage that.
 
snowmobiler7c said:
Exactly the safety switch block isn't allowing fluid through. I purchased it several years ago when rounding up parts for my build and just finally installed it
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I take back what I wrote before.
Mattax said:
If thats what you bought, it looks like you bought a safety switch/dist block, not a combo valve.
.
Click to expand...
I know Inline's text says its the block for either disk/drum or drum/drum but the block in their photo looks like a combo valve. If so, just use a regular distribution block with your seperate prop valve.
There's a photo cheat sheet on this page.
1972 Imperial & Chrysler Disc Brake Service Repair Book from the Master Technician's Service Conference (Session 293)
Combined Unit
upload_2019-2-25_0-3-40.png


And the seperate safety valve & prop valve look like this:
upload_2019-2-25_0-10-45.png

or as shown in the earlier booklet with the fittings installed.
upload_2019-2-25_0-9-55.png
 
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Mattax said:
I take back what I wrote before.

I know Inline's text says its the block for either disk/drum or drum/drum but the block in their photo looks like a combo valve. If so, just use a regular distribution block with your seperate prop valve.
There's a photo cheat sheet on this page.
1972 Imperial & Chrysler Disc Brake Service Repair Book from the Master Technician's Service Conference (Session 293)
Combined UnitView attachment 1715294687

And the seperate safety valve & prop valve look like this: View attachment 1715294693
or as shown in the earlier booklet with the fittings installed.
View attachment 1715294688
Click to expand...
Mattax said:
I take back what I wrote before.

I know Inline's text says its the block for either disk/drum or drum/drum but the block in their photo looks like a combo valve. If so, just use a regular distribution block with your seperate prop valve.
There's a photo cheat sheet on this page.
1972 Imperial & Chrysler Disc Brake Service Repair Book from the Master Technician's Service Conference (Session 293)
Combined UnitView attachment 1715294687

And the seperate safety valve & prop valve look like this: View attachment 1715294693
or as shown in the earlier booklet with the fittings installed.
View attachment 1715294688
Click to expand...

Thanks for everything you posted. Reading the links you posted it states DO NOT to use the combination valve with the additional proportioning valve because it can limit the braking power more than needed to the rear wheels.

I may just use my original distribution block with the texas shaped valve. That should solve my issues. My only concern is almost 50 year old o rings in the original distribution block. I would assume I could disassemble it and replace them but cant seem to find any kits to rebuild the standard blocks just the combination blocks . Inline tube does sell a distribution block that is not the combination but kinda concerned buying one after having a failing combination valve already.
 
If it helps any, I have a 70 Dart with the Kelsey front disc, and rear drums. If you need pics or anything, I can do that. It's Up on stands right now. As I said earlier, my only problem was the plugged rear line. Once I replaced the rear rubber hose, they've been working great
 
Garys72Duster- Thank you I think I have it figured out. Depending on when my 70 was built dictates whether it gets the combination valve or the distribution block and the proportioning valve. I'm going to just rebuild my stock distribution block since I have all the line setup for the small texas shaped proportioning valve. That will fix my fluid flow issue at the current combination valve.

Mattax, Thanks again for all your help and the supporting links. My brakes all worked fine before installing the Kelsey hayes setup. I'm sure the distribution block would work as is but it is pretty rough looking. Following the links on muscle car research I think I will be able to disassemble and clean it up very nicely. I just ordered the rebuild kit. Thank you
 
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