LA or poly

-

Dartnewbie

Former Dart owner
Joined
Nov 11, 2008
Messages
407
Reaction score
0
I'm sure this has been asked before but I don't know the answer so I will ask anyway. What is the difference between a LA and poly engine? I hear these references to the 318 engines and am just curious. Is one type better than the other? Is one worth more than the other? I know someone who says they have a 318 for $150. Don't know which type it is. I have a 63 A body with a /6 and if I wanted to swap to a 318, would the type of 318 matter?
 
Polys are great engines, la's are too and lighter weight.

Poly head design is good for making power, so is the la's.
The poly design is a heavy version of the la, heads are different in which the valves are staggard 'not quite in line like a hemi but close' ,instead of right next to each other like an LA . good for power, limited parts to build Lots of power, unless you can fabricate.

Bottom end parts technically interchange, but top end parts do not.

You'd be better off in the long run to just build an LA -LA stroker engine.
 
So to stuff a 318 into a 63 A body, it looks like the LA version would be "smaller" than the poly and lighter weight. Would the head width difference matter for clearance in the engine bay for the exhaust? I've also read posts about having to modify firewalls near the wiper motor to get a 318 to fit. Would a 273 be a better choice in the smaller A bodies? Not looking for a screamer but would like more hp over the 225 and may look into changing to a 4 speed. If the hp difference between a 225 and a 273 or 318 can be achieved with a modified 225, I may just stick with that and change the tranny only.
 
I think from a $/hp perspective you should go with the small block 360 la. The /6 would have to be built stoutly to handle the hp level even a 273 could easily achieve. This means hi quality bottom end parts,cam,headers,intake to make about 300 h.p. An l.a 360 would easily make 400h.p and use stock bottom end components,plus be more driveable.

Slants are cool and can make good power but you'll be ahead of the game if you go smallblock.
 
The LA engine would be the logical choice for your car, however, I'm not usually logical, and think the poly would be a great swap. If I had a ratrod, or older Mopar, it would definately have a cool poly.....with two fours.
 
Any idea what the hp difference is between the 225 and 273 stock? I am looking to possibly do a swap but again not looking to make a performance machine, just something with a little more pep than the stock 225. This will just be a car to take to shows as I do DJ them and wanted something to ride in besides my van. I really don't want to invest more money in a swap than I paid for the car in the condition it is in which is a pretty good daily driver. Besides the engine, I think I would have to change the radiator which could be tough in the 63 A body for width, the center link, the tranny and driveshaft and linkage for the pushbutton auto. Of course then exhaust issues come into play as well. Torsion bars could be a problem with a poly if the weight is enough to warrant going to bigger bars. So in the end I could have costs that exceed the original cost of the car for the sake of having a v8 versus a /6 with maybe 50-100 more hp. Could I use a super six setup to get say 50hp more out of the /6? Would this be close to a stock 273? Without considering the performance between a poly and a LA, wouldn't I want to go with the lighter of the two so I don't have to beef up the front end as much? I really like my 63 but it seems the engine options are more limited than the 65's on up due to the tighter engine bays. Again I am basically weighing the benefits of a v8 over the /6. Since the 63's did not have the v8 option, is it worth the time and money to add the hp to the car for a mild daily driver? I got a super six intake and carb with the car, just no linkage or air cleaner. Still on the fence on this. Someone knock me one way or the other. Appreciate all the input.
 
A hopped up six is very cool. I like that idea, but if you do swap to an eight, get a 360. A cheap, stock 360 will give you more power, and the up-side is there for the future. You can make it look just like a 273 if thats your desire. A swap kit makes this very easy to do.If you do stay with the six, ask memike about Victoria. She will have a very sharp looking slant when she's done.
Didn't knock you off the fence, did I? Sorry
 

According to the specs provided in 1965 all three engines were available, the 225 made 145 hp, the 273 made 180 hp, and the 318 made 230. When the LA 318 came out in 1967, the hp rating did not change.

Go over to www.slantsix.org to tap into info on the /6. People are installing fuel injection, blowers, turbos, and 4 barrels on the /6 and having fun with it. Check this out. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8d-qqeK0B-I
 
If the poly (A) engine would have fit into an early A body engine compartment easily, the LA engine never would have been invented.

The 225 Hyper-Pak /6 was rated at something like 196 hp, and that was probably a conservative estimate.
 
My sense of balance is still keeping me on that fence.8) I think a 360 may be overkill for what I'm going for. That and I'm sure cramming it in the engine bay would be loads of fun. For 35 or 90 more hp is it really worth it? I'm sure I would feel the difference at 90, maybe 35 too. Are the 273 and 318 the same size? I mean if I have to work in a 273 I might as well work in a 318 instead. Any other thoughts on the other changes that have to be made? Right now its a champagne dream on the cola budget (don't really drink beer) but I am trying to plan ahead and see what parts would be needed. I may just have more fun putting in a 4 speed and leave in the /6. I do have a possible source for a 318 with the push button auto on it already. That would cut down on searching for some parts for bell housing and the such.
 
What about the weight between the different engines? One much lighter than the other? Required torsion bars for each size? Keep in mind I was driving a caravan for the past 11 years and this is my first A body car. May not have been too wise to choose a 63 for a v8 upgrade.
 
I do have a possible source for a 318 with the push button auto on it already.
If this is a stock vehicle, it would have to be a Poly 318, which is allot wider and heavier than an LA engine. Or is it an early A body w/ the swap already done? My daily driver is a poly but its a B-body (64 polara) I love it, but I wouldn't put one in your little dart. Besides there's absolutely no aftermarket performance parts for these engines. I drive one every day so I'm not knocking them just saying you should go w/ an LA 318/360 or hop up the slant. (my 77 pickup is a slant and I love that one too!)
 
My sense of balance is still keeping me on that fence.8) I think a 360 may be overkill for what I'm going for. That and I'm sure cramming it in the engine bay would be loads of fun. For 35 or 90 more hp is it really worth it? I'm sure I would feel the difference at 90, maybe 35 too. Are the 273 and 318 the same size? I mean if I have to work in a 273 I might as well work in a 318 instead. Any other thoughts on the other changes that have to be made? Right now its a champagne dream on the cola budget (don't really drink beer) but I am trying to plan ahead and see what parts would be needed. I may just have more fun putting in a 4 speed and leave in the /6. I do have a possible source for a 318 with the push button auto on it already. That would cut down on searching for some parts for bell housing and the such.


I've had a 273 and tried different cams and so forth and never was happy with it. I installed a 360 and I am over joyed. The 360 has a longer stroke than the 273,318... you WILL notice a difference in torque. I wouldn't waste my time with the 273,318 ..you spend same amount of TIME and MONEY doing all three so why not do the 360. You say that the 360 is over kill... ok that's fine... but I was in the boy scouts "Be Prepared!" I'm not saying have a all out drag motor because it does not sound like you want that but a nice LONGER STROKE 360 would be better in the long run. Now if you are thinking the 273/318 are better on gas than the 360 you are probably right. If you are thinking like that you might want to stick with a /6.

I'm 38 yrs old and try to use my money and time wisely... I found the best bang of the buck was the 360. I how ever would like to be active at 70yrs old like Bill Dedman (member here) who has a BLOWN 360 motor in his Valiant.
 
The engine compartment in your car was designed for a long, narrow, six-cylinder engine, laterally speaking. Not a lot of room from side-to-side.

One of the design feature requirements of the L-A 273 V8 when they were developing it, was that it be made narrow enough to fit the small engine bay in the Valiants and Darts with no problems, which it did.

The 318, 340, and 360 L-A (and later Magnum motors) have exactly the same external dimensions as the 273... unless you're an expert, you wouldn't be able to tell the differece by looking... they're ALL the same size, length, width and height.

So, as someone pointed out, if you bother to swap in a 273, you might as well make it a 360, because the swap difficulty (of which there is little) will be the same. Junkyard 360s are probably cheaper than 273's, anyway, because they are so plentiful; they came in everything. The 273's are getting rare... so, they might well cost more. There is no appreciable weight difference in any of the L-A/Magnum engines. Nothing you'd notice, anyway.

You would have to spend a considerable amount of money on a slant 6 to bring it up to the performance level of a bone stock 360 4bbl motor.

A 4bbl 360 with only a 340-style cam and headers in an early A body would easily run over 100mph in the quarter mile, which is probably faster than you want to go, anyway. You might not even need the cam to break 100...

You'd spend considerable cash trying to get anywhere near that kind of performance out of a slant 6... A similarly-cammed 318 in your light, early A-body car with headers, would easily be a high 90-mph car in the quarter-mile, so either would work as well, for your purposes.

If you care about sprightly (not "race") performance at all, the L-A or Magnum V8 swap would be my choice. Built-up slant 6's are cool, no doubt about that, but in the end, you'll have a faster, easier to accomplish, and cheaper car to "build" with a V8 swap, I think.

The early A-bodies don't require a "K-member" swap to make the switch to a V8, like the later ('67-up) cars do. Yank out the slant 6, and the V8 bolts right to the original slant 6 K-member just fine. The center link (steering) might have to be swapped for one with a depression for pan clearance, and you're going to need a 904 transmission with the V8 bell housing; the transmission that's in there only fits slant sixes. If your driveshaft has a ball-and-trunnion front u-joint, you might want to replace the driveshaft with one that has a conventional (more modern-design) front u-joint yoke.

The only other consideration is the headers, which is not my bag. Maybe someone else, who has knowledge about early A-body V8 exhaust systems can help us out, here.

I know that an exhaust header company called "TTI" recently came out with a great set of headers for this car with an L-A or Magnum V8 in it, but as usual, they're not giving them away. I have TTI headers on my own ('72) 360-powered Valiant and could not be happier with them, so maybe they're worth the money, but if you're on a budget, there's got to be a cheaper way.... Maybe Dakota/Magnum exhaust manifolds witll work for this application????? Anybody know?

If you do a cost analysis that includes even a smidgen of high-performance capability for this car, I think you'll find that the V8 is the more practical (cheaper in terms of both time AND money), and easier way to go.

The Poly will not fit this engine compartment without major surgery to the inner fender panels and shock towers; it's just too wide, and is a lot heaver. anyway. Not a good choice...

Good luck; this looks like a really fun project!!!

Hope this helps.
Bill, in Conway, Arkansas
 
Thanks for all of the input. Very enlightening. So if the different engines are all the same size, it seems I should look for the best deal on the largest engine I can find. Now I think I have a 904 tranny and if so, do I just need to find the proper bell housing to hook it to a v8? Would the v8 change the location of the tailshaft and require a different driveshaft (I do have a ball and trunnion now)? This kind of swap would probably be done next winter after the car show season since I want to use the car all summer long and doubt I could do it quick enough not to have the car down for a month or so. This would also give me the time to get all the parts needed. One question left is: Would the 318 with the pushbutton tranny on it most likely have the same transmission I have now? Since the pushbuttons stopped in 64, at least in the Darts, wouldn't this mean I could still use my stock driveshaft? As far as exhaust, if I had the angled manifolds, I could just run a somewhat stock exhaust and not have to use headers? I beleive the 65 on up Darts were about 3 inches wider than the 63 and 64's, at least the back glass is. Does anyone know if this would include a 3 inch wider engine bay? Sounds like every inch would count in this type of a swap.
 
OK now the other shoe drops. The trans bellhousing for /6 is different than the LA V8 and the bellhousing is built into the trans case (not replaceable). Also a stock LA360 requires a external balanced convertor or flexplate. I don't know if you can use the pushbutton on a later model trans. The later trans will need the slip yoke type driveshaft. Always a complication.
 
>>>>>"So if the different engines are all the same size, it seems I should look for the best deal on the largest engine I can find."<<<<<

Exactly. A 360 will probably be as cheap as a 318... might as well go for the extra 42 cubes; they're FREE...:cheers:

The engine compartment width was the same from '63 through '66... in '67 it was increased someting like 3 or 4 inches, but they put 273's in the '64 models at the factory, so you can too.... The '63/'64 engine compartments are the same width, I am sure.

The 904 question and driveshaft question needs someone who knows more than I do to answer. The bell housing is a part of the transmission, so any small block 904 will bolt up, I believe. The slant 6 transmission has a different bolt pattern and won't work with a V8 at all.

You MIGHT make later 318 exhaust manifolds work in that chassis, I am not sure.... or possibly Dakota Magnum (1992-up) manifolds. Not really sure about that, either Memike might know...

You would be very wise to swap out that little 7.25" rear end for an 8.25" unit from a '73-up A-body car, as the chance of shredding those little gears is pretty much a foregone conclusion with a 360. You'll be glad you did! Those 8.25" rear ends are plentiful and cheap, unlike the heavy-duty (by comparison) 8.75" units. Ditto, the ball-and trunnion u-joint driveshaft. It may not be easy to find a ball-and-trunnion tailshaft-equipped 904 these days; they've been long gone since 1964, I think.... that's what, 44 years???? You'll need a different driveshaft made, anyway, for the 8.25" rear, so might as well do it the easy way and get one with the more modern, conventional 7260 u-joints on both ends...

I know this sounds like a lot of work, but that car will be SUCH joy to drive with a 360 and a 904.... you'll be smiling every time you hit the gas pedal... trust me!:-D

Bill, in Conway, Arkansas
 
Just food for thought....I think the 318 poly trans will have the same bellhousing as the LA engines. Might even be a 727. (Stronger & heavier than a 904.) Maverick on this forum had a push button 904 available a couple of weeks ago that she was eager to sell. Search the forum for Spitfire header info. If you can get them they're a cheaper alternative for exhaust.
 
You can use ANY small block A904 transmission (an A727 will require slight floorpan mods). The bellhousing is integral with the transmission case. The rear mount location, and tailshaft remain the same. The 63-65 cars have a ball & trunion drive shaft, and cable shift. If you use a later transmission you will need to switch to a slip yoke style drive shaft, and will need a conversion cable from http://www.imperialservices.net/ to keep your push button shifter. A 65-earlier transmission will bolt right in as-is.

For exhaust you can either use 64-66 manifolds (which don't flow all that well), or run headers. The header selection is somewhat limited for these cars. The factory manifolds are OK on the street.

A lot of this has been covered before on this forum as well as the Early A Bodies section at http://www.bigblockdart.com/ The "Search" function is a valuable tool. Also try to score a copy of the Direct Connection/Mopar Performance "Chassis" book which has a section on engine swaps as well as a wealth of other info.

Remember, you are building a car which Mopar never did (at least not that year) so expect to spend some time with a tape measure. If you can find a complete 64-66 V-8 car to look at as a reference, life will be much easier.
 
As usual a wealth of good information I can use. Thanks for the help. I think I have a good idea of what to look for and what to plan on. I've done a enigine swap before but only back to the same type taken out. This should be a fun project and my son will learn a lot I'm sure. He's 13 and fiddles with lawn tractors fixing them up. This will get him ready for his big move up to an actual car to tinker on. Thanks again for all the input.
 
I tell you what... I would be proud have that car with a nice 360 and 904!

That car would sure be fun to drive!

Now let's stroke that 360 out.. LOL!
 
-
Back
Top Bottom