Lets talk rocker arms

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The only change in pushrod tips was in early RBs. After 1967, all V8s have the same lifter design in terms of seats. However, what you need from the sound of it, is custom legth pushrods. Normally the last part ordered is the pushrods and I've gotten pretty lucky in that I've always been able to find a "shelf" part number with a similar length to what I measure. If you can get you hands on a pushrod checker, or you make one, you can get the right length in one call. Who knows, maybe there is something from someone that is a shelf number in the length you need.
 
the push rod in the pic is an off the self comp 273 replacement from 3 yrs ago.

What they now sell under the same part # has a ball at the lifter end of the push rod.

The old bullet [comp design] has a somewhat sharp edge where it it go's from a up side down bowl to a straight edge= it's sharp in other words.

old 273 factory p rods are not sharp at all, I'm looking at the old ones I have.

Explain the need for longer to me, I just wanna know what sways you toward this.
Is it that the cams base circle gets smaller with lift increase, so now I need to make up for this?
What are your thoughts on threads below the rocker?
thanks
 
How would it hurt anything, as long as there is enough thread to hold the adjuster in place? If the cup in the pushrod doesn't hit the rocker, and there is still plenty of threads, then the problem is......
 
Sorry for the million questions but the more we have the better the answers...
How long have the valve springs been in there?
Were they changed for the new larger cam?
What are you running for spring pressures over the nose? Is that what Bullet recommended?
Who's springs?
The .560 actual lift... is that after lash as measured at the retainer, or that's the advertised lift and not measured at the retainer?
What year block is it?
What heads?
What machining (that you know of) was done to the heads and deck?
What head gasket?

I am not necessarilly saying "longer is better". More that "different might be better". In terms of the threads... Especially with an aluminum rocker, you want to keep the force running in the direction the rocker and adjuster are designed to transmit it. You lose lift and duration having too many threads showing, and as the rocker moves through it's travel the force ends up going through more of an angle. That means at the point of greatest spring pressure, the force is pushing sideways and up on the adjuster. The further out the socket, the more stress on the adjuster (think the end of a lever and it's fulcrum point). It's not a big deal stress wise if the engine is basically a street one with mild pressures. But when you start talking about 370+ and some rpms, you dramatically increase the risk of breaking something and you lose a tiny percentage of power because of the angles and parasitic friction loss. So I'm a firm believer in having 1-2 threads showing and no more. The last part I order is always the pushrods because until it's all together and everything is accounted for, the length is almost a guess. Well for me it would be a guess without the checking pushrods.
 
How would it hurt anything, as long as there is enough thread to hold the adjuster in place? If the cup in the pushrod doesn't hit the rocker, and there is still plenty of threads, then the problem is......

I currently have about 1 to 0/flush threads showing under the rocker with about 2 above the lock nut.

longer would have negative thread showing underneath and too many above the lock nut.

right?
 
Sorry for the million questions but the more we have the better the answers...
How long have the valve springs been in there?
Were they changed for the new larger cam?
What are you running for spring pressures over the nose? Is that what Bullet recommended?
Who's springs?
The .560 actual lift... is that after lash as measured at the retainer, or that's the advertised lift and not measured at the retainer?
What year block is it?
What heads?
What machining (that you know of) was done to the heads and deck?
What head gasket?

I am not necessarilly saying "longer is better". More that "different might be better". In terms of the threads... Especially with an aluminum rocker, you want to keep the force running in the direction the rocker and adjuster are designed to transmit it. You lose lift and duration having too many threads showing, and as the rocker moves through it's travel the force ends up going through more of an angle. That means at the point of greatest spring pressure, the force is pushing sideways and up on the adjuster. The further out the socket, the more stress on the adjuster (think the end of a lever and it's fulcrum point). It's not a big deal stress wise if the engine is basically a street one with mild pressures. But when you start talking about 370+ and some rpms, you dramatically increase the risk of breaking something and you lose a tiny percentage of power because of the angles and parasitic friction loss. So I'm a firm believer in having 1-2 threads showing and no more. The last part I order is always the pushrods because until it's all together and everything is accounted for, the length is almost a guess. Well for me it would be a guess without the checking pushrods.



These are my J heads, w/11/32 valve stems and about stock mopar installed height 1.920 or something, can't remember.
the springs came from engle but are manley part#'s
140-145int lbs and 335 open@.550

tip wear is just off center towards the exhaust, just a lil.

If I remember right I'm losing .029 lift form what I should have w/ a 1.6=.589 before lash.
I can't remember if it was .560 after or before lash, I will check it.

Another good one is when I bought the bushed mp rockers they advertised as 1.5, but when I tried both the 1.5 mp and 1.6 alum rockers, there was only a .005 diff in lift at least on the 1 I checked....

So now I will be measuring the rockers to see what the hell the MP's really are and if the adv 1.6 aluminum rocker is really just a true 1.5

that aside, I have 1 to zero threads underneath the rocker and 2 above the nut.
78 or 79 block, squared, torque plated, .040 over, heads milled to 62cc .020 off of 1 and .040 off the other to get there, that outta make up for sum length.
 
What was the block decked to... Or where are the pistons in the hole? When was the last time you had a spring or two off and tested for correct pressures? LA head spring installed height is 1.650ish. If you're way over that it could be some of the geometry and rocker/spring issues. Too tall a stem and the rocker tip can't contact the tip correctly (will always be towards the exh side as the stem point towards the shaft centerline). Shims might help that to a small extent but wont fix that if it's really tall. Were Chevy valves used?
 
What was the block decked to... Or where are the pistons in the hole? When was the last time you had a spring or two off and tested for correct pressures? LA head spring installed height is 1.650ish. If you're way over that it could be some of the geometry and rocker/spring issues. Too tall a stem and the rocker tip can't contact the tip correctly (will always be towards the exh side as the stem point towards the shaft centerline). Shims might help that to a small extent but wont fix that if it's really tall. Were Chevy valves used?

stem height is next to stock 1.920 er something.

the shaft leans towards the valve, so raising the shaft will also bring it closer to the valve and I end up with even more towards the exh.
spring height is 1.80, but like I said... stock'ish stem heights.
Remember I used seats in both intake/exh and on top of that +.100 long chv valves are only like .020-.025 longer than stock chrysler stuff.

To me, It looks like I need to either lower the shaft or lengthen the valve, but then again I could shorten the valve and get longer push rods...but that would be a lot shorter when I think about how much I'd have to shorten it to get the roller dead nuts center.

sux , but for now I'm going down to smokeys and grabbing some real ball end/cup p rods to help with the boring issue.
 
Uhhmmmm......

Yeah.


Not much room for adjustment, huh?

How's your geometry?

thats the thing, if I lower the stem height, then longer p rods are good, if I raise the stem height with lash caps, shorter p rods.

I need to nail the p rod geometry and go from there I think, since It's the easier for now cause I ain't pullin heads unless I'm pullin the whole damned thing out.

Tired of messin round with this thang, know what I mean?
 
I'd love to know what's in there for valves with that installed height. They are way tall if indeed it's 1.92. And I'd guess 335lbs over the nose is on the light side for that cam and they are not brand new springs. If it were me, at this point, I'd mill the stands flat and run rocker blocks because it sounds like you've got a serious geometry problem, and possibly dead springs. The two are letting the valve train eat itself. Setup and proper control makes valvetrains live.
 
Justin,

I have some lash caps for you........Let me know if you need them. They are Brand New never used!!
 
manley # 22407-16 , actually 350lbs .550, my mistake.
This is a matched deal all from engle.
engle uses manley springs,locks,retainers.
cam=.573 284* 252*@.050=small after lash .553, in my case .540
Typical fast rate spring pressures, They even have a street single dampener spring 310 @ 1.250 and 350 @ 1.200 open

the installed 'stem' height is not high, I just have measure it to tell you exactly what it is again..
With valves that are only .025 longer and hardened seats on both sides, I don't see how I can end up with high stem heights in the 1st place.

I didn't cut the spring pads down, just the guides to fit the inner springs.fwiw
 
Moper and Justin(onewild). i thing there is a miss communication between the both of you.

I just looked up the spring installed hight. It is 1.65"-1.70" Now, that is from the spring seat in the head to the bottom of the spring retainer.....Right?

The # Justin gave, of 1.920", is from the spring seat, in the head, to the tip of the valve stem........Right?
 
i've only used a couple Engle cams and I spec'd them. In both cases I used a fast rate lobe for the Ford size lifter. They are slower than the .904 lifter and take less spring and don't have the same issues with the modern oils. However, I found thier spring recommendations were too light for my taste and ended up running Comp springs with about 15% more pressure on them with very good results. You've got lighter valves and the lobes they used might not be quite as radical. That being said... The Manley springs if you did set them at .025 taller than stock should be at 1.700 or so. Those springs should have about 370 over the nose with .540 at the valve at that installed hieght. But they are only 110lbs on the seat at 1.700 according to the manley catalog. So when the valve is closing, and more importantly as the lifter hits the take up ramp, it could bounce. That would be for fresh springs. It might be something to consider anyway.
 
thats the thing, if I lower the stem height, then longer p rods are good, if I raise the stem height with lash caps, shorter p rods.

I need to nail the p rod geometry and go from there I think, since It's the easier for now cause I ain't pullin heads unless I'm pullin the whole damned thing out.

Tired of messin round with this thang, know what I mean?

OK, but lower stem height, longer pushrod, geometry is off, rocker is tilted towards the valve, more stress on the lifters and pushrods, and side loads the rockers....

Argh.
 

Cuda... Not a miscommunication. I think he's remembering it incorrectly. 1.65 is stock height. With cutting the seats for dual springs heights and performance retainers the height is usually between 1.65 and 1.70.
 
Cuda... Not a miscommunication. I think he's remembering it incorrectly. 1.65 is stock height. With cutting the seats for dual springs heights and performance retainers the height is usually between 1.65 and 1.70.

we are talking stem height which was ground within stock range.

And we are also talking 'spring installed height' which is 1.80 by means of +.050keepers.
I was at 1.75-1.77, then ground stem height down within stock range.



these are the springs
22407-16 Double w/ SB & BB 1.437" 135 @ 1.800"
dampener
391 lbs rate
.720" 350 @ 1.250"
Bind: 1.085”
 
That makes more sense... It certainly explains the rockers hitting the springs and the geometry issues. If it was me, I'd be having the stock rocker stands milled down and using the W2 shaft stands. http://www.billetracingparts.com/W-2 Mopar Rocker Stands.html
Sorry I screwed up on the springs... I was looking at 22409s... not the 22407s. I must have been more tired than I thought...lol.
 
That makes more sense... It certainly explains the rockers hitting the springs and the geometry issues. If it was me, I'd be having the stock rocker stands milled down and using the W2 shaft stands. http://www.billetracingparts.com/W-2 Mopar Rocker Stands.html
Sorry I screwed up on the springs... I was looking at 22409s... not the 22407s. I must have been more tired than I thought...lol.

It's cool man, no big.

I'm gonna try a take some pics of the 0, mid, full lift and see what it looks like ,since I can't really get a look at it straight on.
 
I am having the same types of issues with a set of RPM heads. I bought the shim kit today and I hope that helps. I thought these were supposed to be out of the box, I guess not :happy10:.
 
No heads are ready to run out of the box. The only way to fix geometry on any shaft style valvetrain is through the valve job and parts choices... That's one of the reasons to have anyone's brandy new set of heads checked and corrected by a competant PERFORMANCE shop.

1wild's issues are for other reasons.
 
heres the difference between new and old, same part #.

Left-old Right-new

the ball on the right is the fix to my lifter boring issue.

Photo 570.jpg
 
which one is the new part #

and was it the new design or old that was giving you problems with the lifter.
 
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