Long valves on W2's with .600 lift?

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Jim and I are more than spectators and WE dont know what cam is being used!
I guess that’s why I got confuse and wondered about what cam your going with. Thinking you had one picked out and possibly on hand. I have not fully kept up with the thread, obviously... and thinking I missed the cam choice... Ha ha ha

To even think about a spring, I’d need to know everything about the cam for starters and the available spring height available just to name two factors.

But you got this. You don’t need my amateur *** blowing stinky wind in the B flat note. I’m sure you’ll get that right.

I'm trying to convince Mike Jones to grind one with more than .570 lift.
What PRH said I guess. There is only so much lift to get on a lobe per the amount of duration and have something last. I get cams, though I’m far from an authority of any sort.

In many applications I suggest to many on getting the most you can get to take advantage of the heads flow but it is not the end all. As we know some people go pretty freakin quick with modest lift cams. Going to a 1.6 rocker solves a lot of that lift issue of course.

If anything, get what you can get with the cam and rocker combo and if it falls short, I would not worry about it. The duration is the bigger consideration since it is the rpm band it will operate in and work in concert with the convert trans rear and tires to be sorted out when you cross the finish line on a drag car and in the roundy, the straights to the turns and how it comes off or out of the turns. Lift plays in second.

Yes, we know it has a direct impact on HP, which should be sought after but not at the detrimental expense of torque while racing around in circles.

FWIW, my W2’s (& W5’s) are bare (& fully done) in there boxes waiting for me to retire shortly. Until then, it’ll be the Edelbrock heads.

For now, I watch, read and learn.
:popcorn:
 
35 or so years ago ran W-2 stuff, 3/8 long valves,no undercut, cast rockers, steel shaft stands,steel retainers, lash caps, big block springs. Roller lifter cam mid 6 lift,turned em mid 7,s. All this was direct connection stuff. All of the kit car 355 parts were heavy but it all worked, didn't know any better back then. Still have a complete 355 and a few parts around. I know lighter is better but that old crap worked just fine
 
With a flat tappet cam, the max lift is limited by the lifter diameter and the duration.
If you push the rate too far, the profile runs off the edge of the lifter(at which point you have instant failure).

.570 lift for [email protected] is using up most of a .904 lifter.
A Howard’s .904 SFT profile in the [email protected] range would be up around .580 lift.
There might be a tad more lift available, but it won’t likely be a very reliable combo.

For the most part........ either change the rockers, run a roller, add some duration(with the same rate of lift, more duration = more lift), or learn to live with it.
Howard's has the 712712-08 that is about what I want with a change to 1.6 rockers....599/616 (1.5)... 255/260 duration on a 108 lsa. Ground on a core made for the .904 lifter. I guess that's about all I can get without going to a roller.

Gotta call T&D about the cost of their rockers to replace my 1.5's.
 
Howard's has the 712712-08 that is about what I want with a change to 1.6 rockers....599/616 (1.5)... 255/260 duration on a 108 lsa. Ground on a core made for the .904 lifter. I guess that's about all I can get without going to a roller.

Gotta call T&D about the cost of their rockers to replace my 1.5's.


I forget...is this on gas or alcohol??
 
alcohol
have to figure 4000 to 4500 off the turns and a self imposed 7200 limit for longevity
so that limits the duration
even if 1.6 were in the budget no time for this year
I do not to chase a few thou lift but concentrate on the 300 duration number
no pointy nose cams for longevity, less spring needed, less chance of valve float, etc
rollers not legal
thanks for the ideas and interest guys
 
I could run a roller ( no one gets inspected or protested especially backmarkers) but can't afford to bush the lifters nor can I afford $900 for good lifters.

The rules allow several different engine packages to encourage more cars to compete but most run the WISSOTA spec 362 ci engine.

A spec engine uses spec Brodix heads, aftermarket blocks, roller cams etc. Cost to have one built is in the $9-12k range. 600-650 hp.

The GM crate motors are legal but at 350-400hp are horribly underpowered on the big half mile.
And the 410 open engines are 700-800 hp and can run from $12,000 on up for a used engine to $35-40,000 for a new bullet.

I'll be all in for $4500-5000.00 including the $2500.00 I paid for the complete blown engine I'm redoing.

It takes $40-60k to field a new car and engine package and have a top five car. I should be able to run mid- pack with the deal I have after my driver (me) learns how to drive these newer style chassis.
 
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junkyjimmy
we hope to have some low cost fun

Rumble
current valves are Manley Pro flow 3/8 stem which are at 1.95 spring height
heads are cut for 1.5 inch springs (heavy tripples)
We need to come up with springs 1.95 minus spring seat beehives would be much lighter
new proposed intake is a .200 long chevy valve which is same length saves some weight
similar to the valves I used to run
Plan was to go with x nascar Ti valves at taller installed height
but require to be cut for bead locks
and would require reshimming the T&D rockers
so not this year
need a 11/32 or 5/16 1.6 ex 2.150 long
 
alcohol
have to figure 4000 to 4500 off the turns and a self imposed 7200 limit for longevity
so that limits the duration
even if 1.6 were in the budget no time for this year
I do not to chase a few thou lift but concentrate on the 300 duration number
no pointy nose cams for longevity, less spring needed, less chance of valve float, etc
rollers not legal
thanks for the ideas and interest guys


Ok, so that makes sense. A little more split for the alcohol.
 
how much compression woul you targer YR?
just getting new race tech pistons 200 gm lighter than the old ones
I have not seen final cr calc yet\
I guess he can play with gaskets but high compression sbm have always been hard to seal for me
I used to o ring but today Cometic or what else works?
 
"We hope to have some low cost fun" Exactly what I was getting at, could the old 3/8 stuff be reused? I know its heavier, but does it have to be replaced? New rockers and valves,guides,retainers and all are gonna cost a chunk, maybe it's all crap but I thought it was fairly new, I may be wrong. Just want to see ya get out there and have some fun, your surely out Dollared, but you gotta do what ya gotta do! Always gotta root for the underdog, go get em Krooser!
 
Thanks Junky
I thought that with all the LS builds out there bead lock would be more competitive
pricy
but tripples make heat and take hp to squeeze them pus really need spray squiters
what gets me is everything i really know is as old as an LA block
I used to run tall springs, made stands etc
today evidently you run springs close to coii bind
I never did- they used do either break or loose tension
anyway we need springs so time to join this century
 
how much compression woul you targer YR?
just getting new race tech pistons 200 gm lighter than the old ones
I have not seen final cr calc yet\
I guess he can play with gaskets but high compression sbm have always been hard to seal for me
I used to o ring but today Cometic or what else works?


I'm not sure what to say about compression ratio. If you are traction/chassis/tired limited I'd think to help get it off the corner you may reduce the CR a bit. If you can get it hooked, I'd shoot for 13:1 or a bit more if you can do it, WITHOUT killing air flow.

When the dome is in the way (especially once the valve is off the seat and moving open...not so much at and around TDC) it changes the flow pattern of the air getting into the cylinder.

It shows up on the carbon patterns on the piston and the chamber and significant clean spots. It was believed (and still is by some) that the clean areas are caused by "fuel wash" but the fact is there is no fuel or air in that area, so there is no carbon residue.

That's why if you have the open chamber heads (which I think you do) I always stick the deck of the piston out as far as I can and then measure for CR. If it's too high, I reduce the dome to get it where I want.

Using my questionable memory, my 11:1 engine right now has a .150-.187 dome (I can't remember which it was and I'm on jury duty so I don't have time to get the build sheet) which is pretty small. But I'm out of the deck .045 (IIRC) or close to that. If I had used a zero deck, the dome (again IIRC) would have been closer to .200-.225. It also makes th piston lighter and reduces crevice volume by a decent bit.

All things to consider.
 
Thanks Junky
I thought that with all the LS builds out there bead lock would be more competitive
pricy
but tripples make heat and take hp to squeeze them pus really need spray squiters
what gets me is everything i really know is as old as an LA block
I used to run tall springs, made stands etc
today evidently you run springs close to coii bind
I never did- they used do either break or loose tension
anyway we need springs so time to join this century
Jim...
Here's Mike's suggestion. Let's go with this and I'll talk to T&D today about 1.6 rockers.


Here's what I recommend.
Cam# Chr360, M76394-79378-106
254/260 @.050"
.394"/.378" Lobe Lift
106 LSA

1.6 rockers would help the top-end.
 
I'm not sure what to say about compression ratio. If you are traction/chassis/tired limited I'd think to help get it off the corner you may reduce the CR a bit. If you can get it hooked, I'd shoot for 13:1 or a bit more if you can do it, WITHOUT killing air flow.

When the dome is in the way (especially once the valve is off the seat and moving open...not so much at and around TDC) it changes the flow pattern of the air getting into the cylinder.

It shows up on the carbon patterns on the piston and the chamber and significant clean spots. It was believed (and still is by some) that the clean areas are caused by "fuel wash" but the fact is there is no fuel or air in that area, so there is no carbon residue.

That's why if you have the open chamber heads (which I think you do) I always stick the deck of the piston out as far as I can and then measure for CR. If it's too high, I reduce the dome to get it where I want.

Using my questionable memory, my 11:1 engine right now has a .150-.187 dome (I can't remember which it was and I'm on jury duty so I don't have time to get the build sheet) which is pretty small. But I'm out of the deck .045 (IIRC) or close to that. If I had used a zero deck, the dome (again IIRC) would have been closer to .200-.225. It also makes th piston lighter and reduces crevice volume by a decent bit.

All things to consider.
Just remember... I'm innocent of all charges!
 
I'm not sure what to say about compression ratio. If you are traction/chassis/tired limited I'd think to help get it off the corner you may reduce the CR a bit. If you can get it hooked, I'd shoot for 13:1 or a bit more if you can do it, WITHOUT killing air flow.

When the dome is in the way (especially once the valve is off the seat and moving open...not so much at and around TDC) it changes the flow pattern of the air getting into the cylinder.

It shows up on the carbon patterns on the piston and the chamber and significant clean spots. It was believed (and still is by some) that the clean areas are caused by "fuel wash" but the fact is there is no fuel or air in that area, so there is no carbon residue.

That's why if you have the open chamber heads (which I think you do) I always stick the deck of the piston out as far as I can and then measure for CR. If it's too high, I reduce the dome to get it where I want.

Using my questionable memory, my 11:1 engine right now has a .150-.187 dome (I can't remember which it was and I'm on jury duty so I don't have time to get the build sheet) which is pretty small. But I'm out of the deck .045 (IIRC) or close to that. If I had used a zero deck, the dome (again IIRC) would have been closer to .200-.225. It also makes th piston lighter and reduces crevice volume by a decent bit.

All things to consider.
This ^^^^^^^^
+, Since alcohol can take a bunch of squeeze, go for it.

Jim...
Here's Mike's suggestion. Let's go with this and I'll talk to T&D today about 1.6 rockers.


Here's what I recommend.
Cam# Chr360, M76394-79378-106
254/260 @.050"
.394"/.378" Lobe Lift
106 LSA
I like it.

@Krooser , sorry, how big is the track?
 
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most interesting from PHR is .570" for 250* is using most of a .904" flat lifter. the old P4349266 is .620" . I pity the old GM folks with .84?" lifters and big lift. the 340 lifter to pushrod angle shaves off about .022" lift with .550" .
 
half mile paperclip
I figure we must be strong corner to flag
the old P4349266 is .620" 283 @.050 4800-7800 Drag pro comp, man & race auto
A Eng. P4349266 D. C. 324-106 324 - .620" 104 .028 .032

Thanks YR, Rumble
 
Jones first cam suggestion

Cam# Chr360, M74375-77370-106
---------------seat .050 lobe 1.5
CM74375 --- 296° 250°.375″ .544″
CM77370-11 308° 255°.370″ .538″ note the additional duration but less lift for the exhaust, as it should be
250/255 @.050"
.375"/.370" Lobe Lift
106 LSA

Latest recommendation
Cam# Chr360, M76394-79378-106 Specials not in lobe list :)
254/260 @.050"
.394"/.378" Lobe Lift note the additional duration but less lift for the exhaust, as it should be
106 LSA
After Krooser got around to filling out the cam request form, valve change and better flow data
to decode Jones lobes take first two numbers and X4-- last three numbers is the lift

CM75405 300°254°.405″.589″ is on the list but evidently not appropriate for endurance circle track- shows the pitfalls of picking your own lobe off a list

EMV Series for 903 Solid Lifters Mechanical Flat Tappet | Jones Cams
These profiles are for use with Mechanical Flat tappets with an .903″ diameter or larger.
The EMV series profiles are for use in racing applications only, and require the use of our Centra-Lube lifters solid body with .024 EDM hole

I thought he might update his recommendation HAPPY NOW KROOSER
did he say intake or both for 1.6
worth it?
 
Jones first cam suggestion

Cam# Chr360, M74375-77370-106
---------------seat .050 lobe 1.5
CM74375 --- 296° 250°.375″ .544″
CM77370-11 308° 255°.370″ .538″ note the additional duration but less lift for the exhaust, as it should be
250/255 @.050"
.375"/.370" Lobe Lift
106 LSA

Latest recommendation
Cam# Chr360, M76394-79378-106 Specials not in lobe list :)
254/260 @.050"
.394"/.378" Lobe Lift note the additional duration but less lift for the exhaust, as it should be
106 LSA
After Krooser got around to filling out the cam request form, valve change and better flow data
to decode Jones lobes take first two numbers and X4-- last three numbers is the lift

CM75405 300°254°.405″.589″ is on the list but evidently not appropriate for endurance circle track- shows the pitfalls of picking your own lobe off a list

EMV Series for 903 Solid Lifters Mechanical Flat Tappet | Jones Cams
These profiles are for use with Mechanical Flat tappets with an .903″ diameter or larger.
The EMV series profiles are for use in racing applications only, and require the use of our Centra-Lube lifters solid body with .024 EDM hole

I thought he might update his recommendation HAPPY NOW KROOSER
did he say intake or both for 1.6
worth it?
Happy now... I think this will put us in the ballpark.

I think we'll try intakes first. Cost is $584.00 for the intakes only. I can send in my 1.5's and T&D will change them over to 1.6's and I'd save a few $$$ but I'd sooner have them as backups. I can always buy the exhaust rockers later and put a full set of 1.6's together as my budget allows.

Headgaskets... used 1008's before but I don't like the 4.1+ bore size. Cometic has a .027 thick, 4.040 bore MLS (same as the block) gasket... opinions? Compression with the 1008 was figured at 13.5...

I'd like to try Superformance gaskets for the balance of the build. Never used them but there are lots of good comments and I like dealing with smaller comapnies.
 
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half mile paperclip
Thanks. I missed it I guess even after re reading the thread. Flat or banked @ what angle?

I figure we must be strong corner to flag
the old P4349266 is .620" 283 @.050 4800-7800 Drag pro comp, man & race auto
A Eng. P4349266 D. C. 324-106 324 - .620" 104 .028 .032
WOW That’s a whopper of a cam.

Thanks YR, Rumble
Ehhhh, YR beat me to it. I left the thread for a bit. But I’m with him in that. I didn’t (missed) know it was alcohol powered and that set my mind up differently. Once I read what YR wrote I was slappin the table sayin YES! yes! YES!

Now if the build can sustain a constant high rpm at all times @ max HP all the way around, No lifting, it’ll be killer.
 
Happy now... I think this will put us in the ballpark.

I think we'll try intakes first. Cost is $584.00 for the intakes only. I can send in my 1.5's and T&D will change them over to 1.6's and I'd save a few $$$ but I'd sooner have them as backups. I can always buy the exhaust rockers later and put a full set of 1.6's together as my budget allows.

Headgaskets... used 1008's before but I don't like the 4.1+ bore size. Cometic has a .027 thick, 4.040 bore MLS (same as the block) gasket... opinions? Compression with the 1008 was figured at 13.5...

I'd like to try Superformance gaskets for the balance of the build. Never used them but there are lots of good comments and I like dealing with smaller comapnies.


Use the cosmetics. Hard to beat those.

I will never use another gasket form anyone other than Superformance unless Superformance doesn't make them.

His gaskets are so good it's a shame. His carb gaskets are second to none. Period. And the rest of his stuff is just as good.

If you order directly from him, remember he is a one man band. He makes the gaskets, does the packaging, does the shipping, answers the phone and everything else. If he doesn't answer, leave a message and he will call you back.

I can't say enough good about his gaskets AND he is a Chrylser guy.
 
Use the cosmetics. Hard to beat those.

I will never use another gasket form anyone other than Superformance unless Superformance doesn't make them.

His gaskets are so good it's a shame. His carb gaskets are second to none. Period. And the rest of his stuff is just as good.

If you order directly from him, remember he is a one man band. He makes the gaskets, does the packaging, does the shipping, answers the phone and everything else. If he doesn't answer, leave a message and he will call you back.

I can't say enough good about his gaskets AND he is a Chrylser guy.

Sigh.... he beat me to it again, I missed that last line by @Krooser - What he said ^^^^^^ - Again....
I'd like to try Superformance gaskets for the balance of the build. Never used them but there are lots of good comments and I like dealing with smaller companies.
Excellent gaskets!
Catch him on FBBO
 
Kroooser's finally filling out the paperwork (the online circle track request card) got the ball moving
In today's mail
You can just send a check to:
Jones Cam Designs
7859 Commerce Dr.
Denver, NC 28037
Inv# 6927
Amount: we have to check and see if amount includes your speedtalk hot pass discount
1.6 rockers on intakes and exhausts.
You want a spring with 140-150# on the seat, and 380# at max lift
 
Kroooser's finally filling out the paperwork (the online circle track request card) got the ball moving
In today's mail
You can just send a check to:
Jones Cam Designs
7859 Commerce Dr.
Denver, NC 28037
Inv# 6927
Amount: we have to check and see if amount includes your speedtalk hot pass discount
1.6 rockers on intakes and exhausts.
You want a spring with 140-150# on the seat, and 380# at max lift

The invoice I got was for $230.00 plus shipping which should include the FastPass discount. Normal price is $255.00 IIRC.
 
send me the invoice number for the hot pass price or I can send chk to U
pm me address
does mike have your shipping address
I'll send u a pm with my new phone number

STILL LOOKING FOR SPRINGS
still looks like the PAC 1220x 140@ 1.95 363 open (600 lift) 370 to stack up so would take 1.6
are the lunati version true Pac?
I'll take a look at PSI and Associated
anyone else have any springestions

rumble- thanks for the comments
Flat or banked @ what angle? Watch the Video U tell me?

YOUR INBOX IS FULL
 
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