Lower ball joint question.

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The Furnace

The Furnace

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I have a 1976 Dodge dart sport slant six car factory disc brakes I am redoing the entire front suspension. The lower ball joints were purchased as a unit. Upon inspection I notice the surfaces where they bolt to the spindle is not machined flat on the mating surface. Anyone know or get these and use them? they from a Chinese kit sold on amazon. I think the brand is dze they bolt up fine look straight but not good surface contact. Should I run em? Or buy something else? I noticed this is not the only brand like this.
IMG_20180920_124010.jpg
IMG_20180920_124023.jpg
 
Talk a bit about the second picture
Is the front bolt tight or torqued, leaving the rear one gapped like that? If yes, then you will need to spotface both mounting bosses on the BJ.
But before you spend money on that operation, check the pin for tightness and turning torque; maybe the joint is just plain junk. The pin HAS to rotate reasonably freely, else your steering wheel will not return by itself, instead you will have to manually return the wheel after every turn....
and WORSE is you will have to make constant steering corrections, as the car will go in whatever direction it is pointed in without exception.The constant wander will become intolerable.
 
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no its not but you can look at that surface and tell its not gonna flush u the way it should its just not flat. I think the seller of this kit said it will fit but its actually a drum brake ball joint. I will torque it down all the way and take a look. Are the drum knuckle shaped different.
 
it actually is touching on the bottom so you see that gap on the top because it is just not flat.
 
this is DLZ chassis part number
AJ/FormS said:
Talk a bit about the second picture
Is the front bolt tight or torqued, leaving the rear one gapped like that? If yes, then you will need to spotface both mounting bosses on the BJ.
But before you spend money on that operation, check the pin for tightness and turning torque; maybe the joint is just plain junk. The pin HAS to rotate reasonably freely, else your steering wheel will not return by itself, instead you will have to manually return the wheel after every turn....
and WORSE is you will have to make constant steering corrections, as the car will go in whatever direction it is pointed in without exception.The constant wander will become intolerable.
Click to expand...
 
I don't recall, but I don't think so as regards the mounting surface. Make sure the bolts you use fit tightly inside the new BJ. IIRC, the bolt sizes are different between drum and disk. IIRC,one of those spindles is tapped for the bolt and the other is a thru-bolt, but I don't recall which is which. Also pre-fit your rotor to make sure the exposed bolt-end doesn't interfere with the ribs inside of the hubs

I would not use that BJ until it bolts up properly. If you torque it up the way it is, you will have a massive amount of pressure on a tiny patch of metal adjacent to or around the bolt. After an unspecified amount of time, the soft spindle will get hammered out and the torque will go away. Then the nut may work loose.And that is the beginning of sorrows.
If you loc-tite it, at least it won't come apart, but sooner or later, you will have to retighten it....... over and over, until some sort of equilibrium is reached.
 
I agree this is DLZ chassis # 20B215
part number K781 which I believe they are referncing the moog part # which is 781
the other side is much flater I wonder if it is just a bad casting or thick powder coating. I thought about grinding that off and just carefully trying to get them to mate better.
 
FYI
There is no difference in lower ball joints on a 73-76 A body car, between disc brake, or drum brake.
All the same.
 
hemi71x said:
FYI
There is no difference in lower ball joints on a 73-76 A body car, between disc brake, or drum brake.
All the same.
Click to expand...
thank you for clearing that up that was a really big part of figuring this out. when I move those bolts around they are pretty stiff compared to the old ones which are nice and smooth in regards to your question. As others have mentioned on various other posts on the subject you tear these front ends apart and just go, its old replace it all. Only to realize maybe i would be better off getting some new boots for the old ones. the car had alot of play in the steering from day one. I was told by the guy that aligned it after i did my engine swap I needed all new bushings so I figured go all the way. I did upper and lower control arm bushings which thank god are not this brand, all new tie rod ends, strut rod bushings and hellwig sway bar kit. My car was not equipped with one. In looking at alot of pictures of different brands there is some slight differences for instances if you look at the moog pictures the left and right for 73 and up are not the same the drivers side looks straighter I think I should get a more reputable brand that is factory correct. Which brings up the other thing which is are the ones on a given car original. LOL when you go to by these things you can look at whats one your car and go it looks the same. You can go by a fitment guide which isnt always right either. the proforged assemblies are different side to side these sets i have are the same side to side. in terms of shape only flare out opposite where the tie rods connect. the two sets I have in my possesion one set is from china and the other looks to be from napa which must have been done years ago. which have the same shape as well but a more flater machined mating surface on one set. there may not have been a difference from the factory but start looking them up to buy and look closely and there are differences between manufacturers. moog and pro-forged are machined flat both sides where the bolts go through they are a different shape side to side. I believe this is what a factory correct set should look like. i have two idler arms same deal they are a different shape and design both say they fit. Im going to the 73 service manual and look super close at the drawings. Cause I cant trust whats on my car to be right and you cant hardly trust the fitment guides.
hemi71x said:
FYI
There is no difference in lower ball joints on a 73-76 A body car, between disc brake, or drum brake.
All the same.
Click to expand...
 
Welcome to the sad reality of the aftermarket parts. However now you're initiated. Congratulations! LOL
I bought a kit in 1989 from a company called "Mr Suspension" and the tie rod ends weren't crimped down right - grease pumped out all along the edges. Another Sat trip to 002 autoparts. At least then and there, it was pretty easy to buy good stuff locally, and it was often in stock. But the kits that seemed like a deal, and the just replace it all, yea. I got initiated too. ;)

To your question. Although the non-machined surface would probably work, its not good practice. Threaded fasteners hold by the tension in the threads. More precisely, the steel stretches or distorts, but not so much that it takes a permanent set. If there is soft material or gaps between the clamped parts, movement from vibration or impact or load is very possible. The movement will allow that tension in the threads to relax, and then back out. The movement may also allow wear on the bolt shoulder.

One way to chase part numbers is look up the OEM Chrysler number first. That's the better way to chase cross references, especially when manufactures decide to cross list parts they deem are close enough to be functional. Sometimes they really are, but sometimes they physically fit, but don't actual function the same (like different length arms).

Lower Ball joints are allowed some vertical movement with the weight off the wheel. The shop manual will have the details of how much is allowable. The movement is taken up when the weights on the wheel. Your old NAPA ones may be OK.

Steering play. There's often a little play in the box when the car isn't moving and wheels are straight. That said..
First - check the wheel bearings aren't loose. If there is in/out movement when you hold the wheel top and bottome (12 and 6), that's number one to tighten to specs.
Second - With one wheel on the ground move the one off the ground as the steering wheel would. Watch each link and joint in the steering linkage until you see the movement.
Then do it from the other side. Get a helper if you need. I prefer to do it myself even though it was awkward because I can feel the movement if there is any and match it with what I'm seeing.

A front sway bar is good move for any driver. You'll notice the better control even with basic all season radials.
 
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Mattax said:
Welcome to the sad reality of the aftermarket parts. However now you're initiated. Congratulations! LOL
I bought a kit in 1989 from a company called "Mr Suspension" and the tie rod ends weren't crimped down right - grease pumped out all along the edges. Another Sat trip to 002 autoparts. At least then and there, it was pretty easy to buy good stuff locally, and it was often in stock. But the kits that seemed like a deal, and the just replace it all, yea. I got initiated too. ;)

To your question. Although the non-machined surface would probably work, its not good practice. Threaded fasteners hold by the tension in the threads. More precisely, the steel stretches or distorts, but not so much that it takes a permanent set. If there is soft material or gaps between the clamped parts, movement from vibration or impact or load is very possible. The movement will allow that tension in the threads to relax, and then back out. The movement may also allow wear on the bolt shoulder.

One way to chase part numbers is look up the OEM Chrysler number first. That's the better way to chase cross references, especially when manufactures decide to cross list parts they deem are close enough to be functional. Sometimes they really are, but sometimes they physically fit, but don't actual function the same (like different length arms).

Lower Ball joints are allowed some vertical movement with the weight off the wheel. The shop manual will have the details of how much is allowable. The movement is taken up when the weights on the wheel. Your old NAPA ones may be OK.

Steering play. There's often a little play in the box when the car isn't moving and wheels are straight. That said..
First - check the wheel bearings aren't loose. If there is in/out movement when you hold the wheel top and bottome (12 and 6), that's number one to tighten to specs.
Second - With one wheel on the ground move the one off the ground as the steering wheel would. Watch each link and joint in the steering linkage until you see the movement.
Then do it from the other side. Get a helper if you need. I prefer to do it myself even though it was awkward because I can feel the movement if there is any and match it with what I'm seeing.

A front sway bar is good move for any driver. You'll notice the better control even with basic all season radials.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the reply all really helpful info. I n looking more closely at alot of pictures of these castings it looks like some are machined some are just cast and left that way. Think I'm gonna try and take a flap wheel and get the powder coat off and just mark and grind the high spots and see how close I can get them to mate. I'll post some more pics once I do this. I've looked at Mancini racing, year one, summit, the year one offering looks like the best match as far as nice castings the boots look like they are properly attached so grease stays where it's supposed too. They are also 85 bucks a piece. The proforged lower control arm bushings and pins looked really top shelf and their ball joint look like they are well made. Like 45 bucks a piece. As long as I take my time work patiently and and pay attention to things like this I'm sure it will work out. I'm gonna perform those checks. Follow the service manual torque specs and grease everything up properly get a good alignment which took alot of asking around just to find the right person for that. Oh yeah new front tires. Proper ride height and new sway bar. I should be A1. I guess part of the the pride off it all is knowing I touched cleans painted every part of this car. Downloading that service manual is definitely the smartest thing I ever did. I constantly reference it. I could have afforded the fancy control arms and all that but for me I like sraping off all the crude and bringing the old back to new. It's crazy though like you said you need to go back to original part # and go from there great advice.
 
AJ/FormS said:
I don't recall, but I don't think so as regards the mounting surface. Make sure the bolts you use fit tightly inside the new BJ. IIRC, the bolt sizes are different between drum and disk. IIRC,one of those spindles is tapped for the bolt and the other is a thru-bolt, but I don't recall which is which. Also pre-fit your rotor to make sure the exposed bolt-end doesn't interfere with the ribs inside of the hubs

I would not use that BJ until it bolts up properly. If you torque it up the way it is, you will have a massive amount of pressure on a tiny patch of metal adjacent to or around the bolt. After an unspecified amount of time, the soft spindle will get hammered out and the torque will go away. Then the nut may work loose.And that is the beginning of sorrows.
If you loc-tite it, at least it won't come apart, but sooner or later, you will have to retighten it....... over and over, until some sort of equilibrium is reached.
Click to expand...
If you look back at the pictures I posted does the little round nub face towards the middle of the car also are the rubber boots squished under the bottom of the ball joint or out to the side like shown in the picture on on your car if so I have them flip flop. I thought I remember the rubber being all quished under the spindle.
 
The Furnace said:
If you look back at the pictures I posted does the little round nub face towards the middle of the car also are the rubber boots squished under the bottom of the ball joint or out to the side like shown in the picture on on your car if so I have them flip flop. I thought I remember the rubber being all quished under the spindle.
Click to expand...
The little nub cast onto and part of the BJ is the steering stopper. If you look carefully, after everything is bolted together it will hit the back of the lower control arm and you have hit "full lock". They face inboard yes.
As for the boot if it ain't tore and is supple, it will go where-ever and be fine. The object of that boot is not to be full of grease, It's job is to keep water and dirt out. If you pump it full, there's a good chance the boot will lift off the seat and fall sideways, allowing contaminants in; badnews.

The steering arms should point rearwards and inboard towards the center of the car. In post #1, the pictured one appears to be pointing inboard. I think you cannot install them flip-flopped with the nub towards the knuckle.
 
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To put it simply, I wouldn't have taken them out of the box in the first place. Made in China ball joints will not go on any car that I own. If that's all I could get the car would sit. Bushings are one thing as when they fail the suspension won't completely go, but a broken ball joint can kill you and others (I'm not as concerned about your car, but that will likely be destroyed as well). That's why I will not order Mopar suspension over the internet unless the seller can confirm made in North America.
 
Jim Lusk said:
To put it simply, I wouldn't have taken them out of the box in the first place. Made in China ball joints will not go on any car that I own. If that's all I could get the car would sit. Bushings are one thing as when they fail the suspension won't completely go, but a broken ball joint can kill you and others (I'm not as concerned about your car, but that will likely be destroyed as well). That's why I will not order Mopar suspension over the internet unless the seller can confirm made in North America.
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I agree lesson learned. I was able to get my situation rectified boxed up and sent back there is a local parts store that actually had what I needed got everything lined up thread locked I got my torsion bars back in place just need get my brakes back together new bearings races seals. I really think the biggest problem was idler arm I put the old which was way better then the new style with the foam washer deals. That had a ton of play in it. Once I get the brakes on I can lower it down torque my lower control arm pins and start checking everything. I'll set ride height and get my new tires and alignment. Any tire recommendations for up front I have 15 x 8 crager wheels. Do I take into consideration the extra inch for the wheels when setting ride height?. These cars came with 14's.
 
Before you buy tires, I recommend you bolt those wheels on and cycle the suspension all the way up and all the way down, at both extremes of steering to make sure the wheels do not contact anywhere, and leave room for the wheel-weights.

If they do NOT have the same centerline as the factory wheels, and the same diameter tires, then your scrub radius will be affected. Usually the car will tend to wander,as it grabs ruts or runs up the edges of longitudinal low areas in asphalt roads. When this happens,as the parts age, the toe-in will go towards zero or even to toe-out,and there is your wander.
The factory 5.5 wheels IIRC were about a 3/3.25"bs to achieve a zero-offset. On an 8inch wheel, zero offset would be 4.5"bs.

The factory ride height is unaffected by the actual altitude of the car. It is a relative measurement between the inboard and outboard ends of the lower control arms. So theoretically, you could put any height wheels and tires on there, and it would only affect the scrub-radius, as long as all 4 tires are the same.
If taller tires are installed in the back, or the rear of the car is lifted, this affects the caster to a small degree.
If you add or subtract significant weight to the front end after an alignment, this will affect the ride height and the camber.This includes jacking up the rear, which shifts weight to the front.
So the best alignment I ever did to my car was to have everything finalized and I installed 180 pounds in my bucket. If you run with a passenger (I drive alone) put some weight in there place.
 
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AJ/FormS said:
before you buy tires, I recommend you bolt those wheels on and cycle the suspension all the way up and all the way down, at both extremes of steering to make sure the wheels do not contact anywhere, and leave room for the wheel-weights.

If they do NOT have the same centerline as the factory wheels, and the same diameter tires, then your scrub radius will be affected. Usually the car will tend to wander,as it grabs ruts or runs up the edges of longitudinal low areas in asphalt roads. When this happens,as the parts age, the toe-in will go towards zero or even to toe-out,and there is your wander.
The factory 5.5 wheels IIRC were a 2.75" or 3"bs to achieve a zero-offset. On an 8inch wheel, zero offset would be 4.5"bs.

Te factory ride height is unaffected by the actual altitude of the car. It is a relative measurement between the inboard and outboard ends of the lower control arms. So theoretically, you could put any height wheels and tires on there, and it would only affect the scrub-radius, as long as all 4 tires are the same.
If taller tires are installed in the back, or the rear of the car is lifted, this affects the caster to a small degree.
If you add or subtract significant weight to the front end after an alignment, this will affect the ride height and the camber.This includes jacking up the rear, which shifts weight to the front.
So the best alignment I ever did to my car was to have everything finalized and I installed 180 pounds in the my bucket.
Click to expand...
I have as big a tire as I can fit in the back Cooper cobra 275 60 15" the car had air shocks on it I really want those off there. I bought a set of the Mopar performance sport springs I believe. Thinking that would give me the clearance I need with regular shocks. I believe the off set is like you said about 4.5 inches tires are close to the leaf springs but easily clear the rear wheel wells. I have the full set of factory 14 inch steel wheels I could buy tires for those and run them up front. Do you think that would be better the the cragars? I will follow your recommendations you stated earlier is the skosh chart the proper allignment guide to use? Max street performance? I printed this article to take as a reference for the alignment shop I have a reputable place for that has done alot of the alignments on muscle cars in my area.
 
Lots of guys like the Cragars. They used to be very popular, and they don't break when you hit a curb, leaving you stranded.
But I run aluminum wheels, they weigh about half of a steel wheel, which a set of 4 totals 50/60 pounds that I don't have to haul around every stinking mile. Plus the aluminums hammer over speed-bumps waaaay better.
I like the look of fat 15s on the front.
I had a set of 245/50-15s on my car for a while on zero off-set 8" steel Rallys. Looked great. Handled and braked great. Was a huge PITA to fit. Wore them out in about 6 weeks,maybe less, on the street. So I retired those heavy wheels. I'm back to my 235/60-14s on 7" ET-IIs.
Stick with .5* negative camber. Max the caster out positive, you get what you get.
 
AJ/FormS said:
Lots of guys like the Cragars. They used to be very popular, and they don't break when you hit a curb, leaving you stranded.
But I run aluminum wheels, they weigh about half of a steel wheel, which a set of 4 totals 50/60 pounds that I don't have to haul around every stinking mile. Plus the aluminums hammer over speed-bumps waaaay better.
I like the look of fat 15s on the front.
I had a set of 245/50-15s on my car for a while on zero off-set 8" steel Rallys. Looked great. Handled and braked great. Was a huge PITA to fit. Wore them out in about 6 weeks,maybe less, on the street. So I retired those heavy wheels. I'm back to my 235/60-14s on 7" ET-IIs.
Stick with .5* negative camber. Max the caster out positive, you get what you get.
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Thanks a bunch. Much appreciated.
 
AJ/FormS said:
I haven't tried zero-offset 8s with a bs of 4.5, on the 73 up spindles. I know 3.75bs fit OK
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I double checked they are 4.25 B's and have 205 65 15 on them this is what came on the car so I replaced the back ones first I'm gonna double check the width of these rims too. I just noticed one has a nice little bend in it glad you posted. These always cleared no problem. But the front always sat up high to me. I'll try to post a few pics from before I did this to see what you think. The tires are tiger paws.
 
The Furnace said:
I double checked they are 4.25 B's and have 205 65 15 on them this is what came on the car so I replaced the back ones first I'm gonna double check the width of these rims too. I just noticed one has a nice little bend in it glad you posted. These always cleared no problem. But the front always sat up high to me. I'll try to post a few pics from before I did this to see what you think. The tires are tiger paws.
Click to expand...
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IMG_20180924_191755.jpg
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So they are 15 x 8 with 4.25 bs these are the set of 14's I have all four. Not sure how I would feel about running 15's in back and 14's up front. I'm gonna have to have that dented one swapped with a better rim off the back and fix the best one I guess. Any recomendations?
 
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