Miss at WOT Only

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I'm typing this in the driveway. Trying to beat the upcoming rain. Just disconnected the secondaries and the problem went away. Going to go down to 66 main jets and put a heavier spring in the secondary. We shall see...
 
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Hold on there.You cannot lean the secondaries out with primary MJs. I think you know that. Leave the 68s in for now, and just slow down the secondaries a bit. One thing atta time.
Successfully running with secondaries closed only proves one thing, the issue is definitely load related. From here we need to figure out if A)overheated plugs are driving the engine into detonation that you either cannot hear, or, are unfamiliar with the sound of, or B) the secondaries are just that lean, and the combustion chamber temp itself is driving the event into detonation, or C) your engine is just not ever gonna like 87.

I couldn't find a decent cross reference for Autolite to Champion. In the chart you provided,it looks like 66s are the hottest. I run Champion RN12YCs myself and they have probably 80,000 miles on 'em,HA! Maybe more.And Yes yours look hot . I don't want to spend your money, but overheated plugs was high on my list.

Depending on your answers to the above; I would guess that;
A) the plugs are toast, or

So at this point, I think the solutions are one of the following;
get rid of the 87, and start with a few quarts of 91.If the engine likes that, then we know that it is detonation for sure.
Alternatively, you could go down 2 heatranges in plugs and find out MAYBE the same thing.
Or fatten up the secondaries, to cool off the mixture.

You're not running EGR right?
 
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Hold on there.You cannot lean the secondaries out with primary MJs. I think you know that. Leave the 68s in for now, and just slow down the secondaries a bit. One thing atta time.
Successfully running with secondaries closed only proves one thing, the issue is definitely load related. From here we need to figure out if A)overheated plugs are driving the engine into detonation that you either cannot hear, or, are unfamiliar with the sound of, or B) the secondaries are just that lean, and the combustion chamber temp itself is driving the event into detonation, or C) your engine is just not ever gonna like 87.

I couldn't find a decent cross reference for Autolite to Champion. In the chart you provided,it looks like 66s are the hottest. I run Champion RN12YCs myself and they have probably 80,000 miles on 'em,HA! Maybe more.And Yes yours look hot . I don't want to spend your money, but overheated plugs was high on my list.



So at this point, I think the solutions are one of the following;
get rid of the 87, and start with a few quarts of 91.If the engine likes that, then we know that it is detonation for sure.
Alternatively, you could go down 2 heatranges in plugs and find out MAYBE the same thing.
Or fatten up the secondaries, to cool off the mixture.

You're not running EGR right?
Not running EGR. I installed every spring in the Holley spring kit from weakest to heaviest and ended up with the heaviest. Thank God for their quick spring kit or that would have taken me a week. The miss is completely gone now and my acceleration is much better. Of course, the secondaries aren't opening up completely now due to the spring installed, so I may go ahead and buy the secondary metering block that lets you change out the jets. Not sure if that's even necessary. Would it benefit to have the secondaries open all the way and trim the fuel back? During all my runs (about 8 of them), I left the windows up and never heard any pinging or rattling under the hood.
 
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Well you really want the secondaries to fully open, and as early as possible without causing other problems.Otherwise what's the point of having a 4bbl?
And so the jetted plate is the next step.

But we're forgetting something. Holleys are jetted pretty close right out of the box, and usually fat.
So now you have to ask the question; what's going on?
Well by delaying the secondaries and restricting them, you have kindof proved that something is going on inside those chambers that shouldn't be. The first line of defense is octane.And the second is cold enough plugs.And I know we have been dancing around this for quite a while now, but Everything is pointing to those two. So again, yank out the 87 put in the good stuff, and start bringing the secondaries back in. If it starts acting up, install colder plugs and retest. If the colder plugs work, bring the secondaries in faster until it creates new issues like bogging. If you can feel them they are probably coming in a little fast. Really that carb should be pretty close with it's stock jetting, and with your 268 cam.

I ran a similar Hughes cam 270/280/110 in my 367 with that 1850 and I can't recall what jets I ended up with, but it mightabin 68s up front. I don't think it was off by much,although, I was running 10.9Scr with a ton of cylinder pressure. I tuned that baby for economy. My regular carb was a 750DP. That 1850 with double overdrive, got me 32mpgUS, on the hiway, point-to-point, at speeds from 65 to 85 mph. Final drive was right around 2.0. Rpm was a tic over 2100@85. And before you ask: no,your teener won't do that.lol.
It might do better, but not with the current set-up; you would need a lot more compression, and of course 2.0 final drive,lol, and a longer stroke would help
 
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Well you really want the secondaries to fully open, and as early as poossible without causing problems.Otherwise what's the point of having a 4bbl?
That's what I thought. I'm running a 3bbl now haha. I'll try a colder plug to get some color on the porcelain and get an adjustable secondary metering block down the road.
 
Any luck with this?

Is it just going flat 5-8 seconds into WOT?
If you let off does it run fine again?
 
Any luck with this?

Is it just going flat 5-8 seconds into WOT?
If you let off does it run fine again?
It only stumbles when the secondaries open all the way up at high RPM (above 4500). I went from Autolite 66 to Autolite 64 spark plugs with no change. It was caused by a rich condition. My pipes even had a lot of black soot in them. I ordered a secondary metering block conversion kit and only had one jet size smaller on hand from what the previously metering plate was. It improved with the jet change, so I ordered a bunch of jets to try on it. Unfortunately, I had to return the carb to Holley for a warranty repair on the throttle arm. Looks like the throttle shaft wasn't peened properly allowing it to have play in the arm. I sent it lowest priority USPS which took forever, they fixed it very quickly, and it's on it's way back here now. The carb had 66 jets in the main and a 67 metering plate for the secondaries. Holley Tech support recommended a 60/64 combo. I'll start with that and see what happens. It's amazing how much else you get done around the house when your car doesn't have a carb on it!
 
Hope you get it worked out.
I was curious, I am fighting a similar issue. Wednesday I tested with a fuel pressure guage run to the cabin and a buddy watching it and found my fuel pressure drops to zero when mine acts up at 4500rpm WOT.
With mine, the issue has been the same on three totally different carbs with multiple metering changes, two distributors, multiple plugs and wires, with and without a gas cap, etc...
I have been chasing this for a while and was hoping what I have learned might help you out, too.
Sounds like you have a different issue with similar symptoms and are on track to naiil it down.
Keep us all updated when you get your carb back. Good luck!
 
Hope you get it worked out.
I was curious, I am fighting a similar issue. Wednesday I tested with a fuel pressure guage run to the cabin and a buddy watching it and found my fuel pressure drops to zero when mine acts up at 4500rpm WOT.
With mine, the issue has been the same on three totally different carbs with multiple metering changes, two distributors, multiple plugs and wires, with and without a gas cap, etc...
I have been chasing this for a while and was hoping what I have learned might help you out, too.
Sounds like you have a different issue with similar symptoms and are on track to naiil it down.
Keep us all updated when you get your carb back. Good luck!
Dang. Vacuum secondaries on those carbs you tried? Did you swap springs if so? How about a new coil or coil location?
 
650 AFB
800 AVS
750 DP

Explored the ignition system, but ignition problems don't kill fuel pressure with a mechanical pump.
Waiting on a new fuel pump.
 
Got my carb today and tried every jetting combination from 60/64 to 68/70. Installed every secondary spring I have in there too. I ended up with a 64/66 jet combination, but the miss is still there. I am leaning towards upgrading my stock ignition system which may be the weak link. I posted the following to get some input Stock Ignition Limitations?. It never ends...
 
Got my carb today and tried every jetting combination from 60/64 to 68/70. Installed every secondary spring I have in there too. I ended up with a 64/66 jet combination, but the miss is still there. I am leaning towards upgrading my stock ignition system which may be the weak link. I posted the following to get some input Stock Ignition Limitations?. It never ends...


That is correct. It never ends.........
 
Got my carb today and tried every jetting combination from 60/64 to 68/70. Installed every secondary spring I have in there too. I ended up with a 64/66 jet combination, but the miss is still there. I am leaning towards upgrading my stock ignition system which may be the weak link. I posted the following to get some input Stock Ignition Limitations?. It never ends...


What's your fuel system look like?
Pump?
Lines? Any kinks? Especially arond the rear framerail or 90° fittings?
Filters? Before or after pump?
Do you have a vacuum/fuel pressure guage?

You could be having the problem I'm having. Perhaps the black tail pipes are unrelated to your miss?
I know from my own experiences lately that it's hard to diagnose when you have multiple issues going on.

Do you have a vacuum/fuel pressure guage?

Do you have anyone to ride along and video what it's doing?


I found out yesterday my Carter M6902 is only putting out just under 5psi with no regulator, where it was 8.5 psi a couple months ago.
My new pump should be on by tonight, I think I have everything else dialed pretty close now. I guess we'll see.
 
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Put a vacuum gauge on it with a long enough hose to either bring into the cab, or strap to the windshield wiper.Block the secondaries closed. Then take it out for a roadtest.When you get her up to 4500,roll into the throttle hard enough to drop the vacuum to 10 inches,then run her up to 5500, if it takes it, then 6000, then 6400.Then slow back down to 4500. Next slam her down to 8 inches vacuum, and repeat. If it takes 8, then 6, and so on.
>You can always feel lean on the gas pedal. When accelerating, and you feel the car begin to slow, pull up on the gas pedal just a bit; if the car then surges ahead again, that is more than a little lean. If you have a vacuum gauge hooked up at the time, you will clearly see it.You can test this every 1000 rpm or every 500 or every whatever. You may be accelerating at 10 inches of vacuum, and the car begins to slow down and the vacuum falls rapidly. You then lift off, the gauge pops back up and the car surges forward, until it goes lean again, and this repeats until the car stops surging ahead on the lift and the backfiring starts.If you have never experienced a lean surge, just swap out the PV for a plug, and off you go. Pick an rpm or roadspeed. Lay on the throttle moderately until the car kindoff noses over, and then reduce throttle slightly. The car will surge ahead, everytime. If you lay more throttle on it when it noses over,the engine will complain by sputtering hick-upping and eventually backfiring.While doing this it will not go any faster, especially in higher gears, when the engine is fighting the wind.

That 268 cam likes to go 6200/6400. Will yours go there on the primaries?
If it goes to 6400 on the primaries,without issue, then the valve springs are obviously working. With a 727/904, that cam will want the 1-2 shift at about 6400,and the 2-3 at about 6100 for maximum average hp.If you are afraid to rev it that high, you have the wrong cam.
If it won't go that high on the primaries,the engine has stopped pumping air.Either the valve springs need help or the exhaust is plugged,or the intake is strangled,or the AFR is way off, or the cam-timing is way-off.
A) If it just flat stops reving,And the exhaust is not plugged, and sawing on the gas pedal makes no change, the springs are crying "Uncle", STOP! the valves are no longer closing and damage is imminent, if not already too late. If it stalls now when you put it in neutral, the lifters are pumped up. Tow it home. Wait a day, turn the engine over 1/4 turn, Repeat 3 more days
B) If the "stops reving"is accompanied by the car slowing and hick-upping this is going lean. You can stop the nonsense by backing off.Backing off the gas pedal will produce a surge, If accompanied by backfires, this is very lean. When the engine is lean, it will start the BS sooner in second gear, and yet sooner in third, cuz the load is ever increasing.
C) If the "stops reving"is soft and mushy and it stops accelerating (noses over) before it actually quits reving, this is very fat.There may be a lot of after-fires in the headers, but no carb backfires. Plus the evidence is in the tailpipes.Backing off the gas pedal does not produce a surge, but the racket in the headers quits.
D) You can check for a plugged muffler by installing a pressure tester just ahead of it. Under 2psi is good, the lower the better. Over 4 is trouble; something is up. 2 to 4 obviously is arguable. A high restriction exhaust will cause the hot exhaust gasses to back up into the intake manifold during the overlap period and cause backfires. The 268 has 52* of overlap, more than enough to let this happen. If the pressure in the headers gets to be higher than the pressure in the intake, guess where the exhaust is gonna want to go.
E) If it just stops reving at a certain rpm, in every gear, turn off the rev-limiter


Once you have proved the springs are ok, and you have debugged the primaries, then you can start on the secondaries. Just add 8 numbers to whatever primary jets are in it, and start with a medium spring in the pot. If it still craps out on the secondaries; A) the ignition system is toast, or B) the ignition system is toast.
The coil is easily tested, sorta. If it fires a half inch gap in atmosphere with a nice zapping sound and bright blue arc, she is probably good to go.More is usually better. Non-fouled plugs will not cause a "will not rev past 5000 when standing on it". Neither will plug-wires. If they go to 6200 on the primaries, they should go there on the secondaries. So that just leaves the spark-box, or it's connections, or the voltage supply.
Once you have a successful run, then you can fine tune the secondary jets.
I know you have done most of this, so just jump in where-ever you think you are at.
 
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Mine is still losing all fuel pressure after a few seconds WOT with a brand new Edelbrock/Carter pump. Makes no diffirence if I start from 20 or 70mph.
110gph and 3/8" inlet and outlet made no difference.
At my wit's end with this bullshit!
Hope you are having better luck with yours.
 
Mine is still losing all fuel pressure after a few seconds WOT with a brand new Edelbrock/Carter pump. Makes no diffirence if I start from 20 or 70mph.
110gph and 3/8" inlet and outlet made no difference.
At my wit's end with this bullshit!
Hope you are having better luck with yours.
Have you tried a fuel output test? If yes, is your engine pulling more fuel than what is physically able to pass thru the float valves, or thru the line from the pump to the carb. Perhaps you need to devise a test for that.
 
I have considered trying it after seeing you talk about in other threads, but I get a little lost in the math trying to correalate the volume at idle to 4500 rpm where mine is starving...
 
I have considered trying it after seeing you talk about in other threads, but I get a little lost in the math trying to correalate the volume at idle to 4500 rpm where mine is starving...
Let me try and help you with that.These pumps are serious business. Even the stock 318 pump often has more output,running wide-open, at idle than the stocker will ever use.

A gas engine is said to require 1/2 pound of fuel per hp, per hour.
A gallon of gas is said to weigh about 6.25 pounds
A 400 hp engine thus requires 400/2/6.25=32 gph. This equals 32/60minutes =.53 gallons in 1 minute, or just over 2qts/min, or 68 ounces/min; At the rpm of peak hp.
So at 4500rpm this mythical 400hp engine might be putting out 340 hp, requiring just 27gph, or 58 oz/min.

The spec for a stock pump is
1qt. per min@1000rpm. This is 32oz/min or,19gph; To the carb!
So if your pump puts out 32 ounces in 1 minute at 1000 rpm,this is already good for 237.5hp
>I would not expect that pump to put out twice as much at twice the rpm; but I would expect it to be at least double by 5200/5400, the rpm of peak hp for the typical street cam.So if it doubles, that would be 38gph or good for 475hp.
On the HOs, the output is rated at 80gph free-flow, which is 170 oz/minute, good for 1000hp
>You could check your output at 1000 rpm for 15 seconds and record it. You could repeat the test at 2000,and 3000, and so on. Then graph the results, and extrapolate to 6000. You could then grab the qty,off the graph, at where your engine makes peak hp and convert it to pounds per hour and then hp/hr. Since this is a free-flow test on an installed set-up, this is the best situation to see accurate results.
If your pump cannot do it, before pitching it,check the return spring on the arm. In order for the pump to do it's job, the arm has to stay in contact with the eccentric,for 100% of the stroke. A weak spring will not return the arm fast enough, and the arm bounces or floats, and the output plateaus early.
>In order for the pump to achieve it's rating, it would need zero restriction on the suction side, and be running into zero restriction on the pressure side. Obviously, in the chassis, this is not possible. Every bend is a restriction, as is every connection,and the pick-up, and the filter, and the float valves. So by the time gas is entering the bowls, the freeflow spec is not telling the whole story. But your test on a running engine, having tee'd into the line as close to the float-valve as possible, is about as accurate a test as can be.
>Pressure is meaningful in so much as it tells us a little about the pumps ability to PUSH gas. But I tell you what, if you restrict the pump's output to as good as zero, the pump pressure will max out, but you won't have enough gas to power up your lawnmower, right? So pressure means only so much. The volume test tells you almost everything you need to know.It is, or should be, the first GO-TO when diagnosing a WOT or high-rpm problem.
>And the tools are minimal. A hose, a Tee, a jar, and some clamps. Fill the jar by stopwatch, and convert it to qts per minute.For dead-nuts accuracy, the line should be steel,up-sized,with a minimal curve to run over the fender, and a stop valve to make timing easier.That's all there is to it.
Go!
 
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Are you running a return line or something?

Is the fuel pump eccentric worn out or loose?

I doubt you have 2 bad fuel pumps. The fuel is going somewhere.
 
Are you running a return line or something?

Is the fuel pump eccentric worn out or loose?

I doubt you have 2 bad fuel pumps. The fuel is going somewhere.

No return line. Couldn't get eyes on the eccentric when the pump was out. Is there a way to check it with the timing cover on?

I pulled the sending unit, looks like new other than the lock ring gasket was cracked. A 45 mile round trip later I have one to replace it tomorrow. Float was fine, too.
I disconnected the fuel line and blew through it , not super hard and fuel shot out the other end all over the floor, but I am worried about the section that jumps over the frame rail. It has multiple bends necking it down pretty thin. Might cut that part out and splice in a hose for now. I checked every bend in the line, if there is a restriction, thats where it is.

While I have the sender out I want to test it and see if I can adjust it make my fuel guage read correctly. Anybody got a good link to that process?

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My sending unit was dirty as hell inside the tubing. I put a cloth patch on the end of some safety wire, soaked it in carb cleaner and pulled it through several times like cleaning a gun barrel. It worked great. I also didn't change the float when I had it out and it leaked a few weeks later, filling it with fuel. It would be cool if you could find one local. I understand your 45 mile round trip to get something done the next day :)
 
I blew through the sending unit also, but I will do that tomorrow as well.

Nobody has anything anymore! Only one parts store had it in all of Austin!
I had to wait a week to get a set of NGK FR5's!
 

Thanks!
Glad you got yours figured out!

Summit is putting up a store in Houston and already charging 8.25% sales tax.
I get most stuff from Jegs and get them to price match to Advance's perpetual 20%-25% off online orders.
 
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